MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

I know of a bishop, who once had a person in his ward (who had some emotional health issues) come in to talk with him in his office.  The person said some very odd things, including nonchalantly dropping a few f-bombs.

About 2 years ago I came to church early and found a man waiting to speak with the bishop.  He looked disheveled, and not "all there."  He said he was very hungry.  As I figured the ox was in the mire, I put him in my car and drove him to a nearby Sonic and bought him a breakfast burrito and a drink.  He thanked me, then launched into a long, meandering diatribe about his parents trying to have him kidnapped, government agents, and more.  I managed to get his parents' number.  I called them, and they explained their son was mentally ill and probably not taking his meds.  The man spoke with the bishop briefly, then walked out of the building.

Mental and emotional issues can manifest in all sorts of unexpected/unanticipated ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes, but you wouldn’t have sent your friend out into the mission field, would you?

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, a mentally ill sister missionary exposes her breasts to the MTC President, and he not only doesn’t report this, but he sends her out into the mission field?  That makes sense to you? Not to me. 

I readily concede that would be very strange.  Did he actually send her out?  How do we know that?  

And how do we know he did not report it?  

I'm not being obtuse.  There are a lot of different sources of information being thrown out, so this is new info to me.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I know of a bishop, who once had a person in his ward (who had some emotional health issues) come in to talk with him in his office.  The person said some very odd things, including nonchalantly dropping a few f-bombs.

About 2 years ago I came to church early and found a man waiting to speak with the bishop.  He looked disheveled, and not "all there."  He said he was very hungry.  As I figured the ox was in the mire, I put him in my car and drove him to a nearby Sonic and bought him a breakfast burrito and a drink.  He thanked me, then launched into a long, meandering diatribe about his parents trying to have him kidnapped, government agents, and more.  I managed to get his parents' number.  I called them, and they explained their son was mentally ill and probably not taking his meds.  The man spoke with the bishop briefly, then walked out of the building.

Mental and emotional issues can manifest in all sorts of unexpected/unanticipated ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

In a city nearby here maybe 17 ish years ago a Police in training recruit pulled a knife on his Bishop when he didn't give him a recommend, he was obviously kicked out of the academy. He later murdered someone in Quebec, which is sad.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Yes, but you wouldn’t have sent your friend out into the mission field, would you?

I think a young woman who exposes her breasts to an older man in an ecclesiastical setting is clearly not ready for the rigors of missionary work.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

Mental and emotional issues can manifest in all sorts of unexpected/unanticipated ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

Like not being able to control your sexual "thoughts" while in the midst of young women and giving "back rubs" that get frisky? 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

From my limited experience, his position was almost entirely administrative, not counseling. Not saying it didn’t happen, but missionaries were there 2 weeks or 2 months, depending on language. How would someone even have time to develop a relationship, counseling or otherwise? 

She is the one who claimed he helped her with counseling, so you are questioning her story, not his.

He stated he was completely out of his depth with counseling the traumatized young women coming to.see him and was able to get a counselor after one sister threatened to through herself off a building.  Prior to that he was refused money (this was the most coherent statement in the transcript from either of them so far).

As turning that into stories of exposing herself...the first time a volunteer therapy group met at BYU (I had been a required one the previous semester which was one of the best experiences I had at BYU, so I signed up for another one), one of the students let loose with the most explicit recitation of his personal thoughts I had ever heard.  I can well imagine him in a one on one situation exposing himself.  There are unhealthy, damaged people in the world who really need to connect with others and don't know how to not go to extremes.  It is both heartbreaking and terrifying (I never went back to that group).

I am not saying it happened with her.  I am just saying I don't find it implausible.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

I think a young woman who exposes her breasts to an older man in an ecclesiastical setting is clearly not ready for the rigors of missionary work.

Thanks,

-Smac

Oh for heaven's sake. You have not conceded anything to the women and jump on every ridiculous victim blaming counterclaim. Here is a newspaper article corroborating the wiretapping claims of the other woman you don't think is credible. How many men do you know who end up in the middle of a wiretapping and sexual assault allegations? 

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/10396624/

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

His son is doing the blabbing sounds like!

MormonLeaks has destroyed his father's reputation.  I can understand him feeling the need to disclose things that would otherwise not be appropriate for public consumption.  He and his father are in extraordinary circumstances.

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

It seems convenient that he has dementia

I don't get this.  "It seems convenient" is just a snide way of saying "I don't believe he has dementia."  Well, then just say that.

BTW, do we have a source for Bro. Bishop's purported dementia?

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

when he is innocent but he doesn't when he's guilty.

I don't understand this.  What are you suggesting here?

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I hope they find people that can corroborate either one or whatever and get some closure in it.

33 years later?  Not likely.

This is why we have statutes of limitation.

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That would mean finding her MTC companion, anybody else who was in her district, journals, anybody else that was involved with Bishop and that could take time. I hope though that the seriousness of the charge, coming up in 2010, surely it can't take 7, 8 years to find all these people, but who knows what investigating they have done and will continue to do. 

I'm not sure we really want the LDS Church, as a religious organization, running what essentially amounts to a criminal investigation.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I readily concede that would be very strange.  Did he actually send her out?  How do we know that?  

And how do we know he did not report it?  

I'm not being obtuse.  There are a lot of different sources of information being thrown out, so this is new info to me.

Thanks,

-Smac

It’s true that I’m going by her saying she did serve her mission and that the church wasn’t aware of any incident until 2010. 

That said, as I said, the son’s statement smacks of saying she was asking for it. 

[juliann]

This whole thing is balancing on whether there are other victims. So far, the Trib is the only paper taking time to investigate. 

But for those who will only look at the worst in this woman, they have no excuse to not be looking at the worst in this man. 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

She is the one who claimed he helped her with counseling, so you are questioning her story, not his.

As turning that into stories of exposing herself...the first time a volunteer therapy group met at BYU (I had been a required one the previous semester which was one of the best experiences I had at BYU, so I signed up for another one), one of the students let loose with the most explicit recitation of his personal thoughts I had ever heard.  I can well imagine him in a one on one situation exposing himself.  There are unhealthy, damaged people in the world who really need to connect with others and don't know how to not go to extremes.  It is both heartbreaking and terrifying (I never went back to that group).

I am not saying it happened with her.  I am just saying I don't find it implausible.

I’m not questioning that he met with her. I just find that odd. I’ve known a lot of damaged people, too, and I got an up close and personal view of a psychiatric ward, so I know what people are capable of. I do find it implausible that such an incident would go unreported and the sister have no ecclesiastical consequences. 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m just wondering why the MTC President was counseling missionaries one on one. 

He states previous traumatized sister missionaries were coming to him (the stress or just being away from home could have triggered buried feelings or provided them an opportunity to finally feel safe to talk to someone who likely wouldn't go to their parents) and there wasn't money for counseling to begin with (and he was refused when he asked for it).

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

He said there were 180 missionaries at a time, but wasn't sure about his math iirc.  Maybe he was talking about how many came in each week.

 

He was mission president in Argentina and was probably referring to his time there. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

This whole thing is balancing on whether there are other victims. So far, the Trib is the only paper taking time to investigate. 

But for those who will only look at the worst in this woman, they have no excuse to not be looking at the worst in this man. 

She clearly is a troubled person, but to focus all skepticism in her direction is wrong. It will be interesting to see how this place. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I do find it implausible that such an incident would go unreported and the sister have no ecclesiastical consequences. 

Got it. 

In describing that time, he states he was out of his depth, he sounds like he was clueless about how to react.  In that case, I can see someone not reacting at all, but hoping the problem would go away on its own if he just kept treating her 'normally'.  

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

He was mission president in Argentina and was probably referring to his time there. 

That makes sense.  There was some jumping around and undoubtedly my brain jumbled it up further.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

He states previous traumatized sister missionaries were coming to him (the stress or just being away from home could have triggered buried feelings or provided them an opportunity to finally feel safe to talk to someone who likely wouldn't go to their parents) and there wasn't money for counseling to begin with (and he was refused when he asked for it).

Again, from my experience, going directly to the MTC president for counseling would be bypassing several layers of priesthood line. Nobody I knew had any direct interaction with Bishop. 

[Calm]

"BTW, do we have a source for Bro. Bishop's purported dementia?"

Sources yes, confirmed no.  They were not anonymous but were in a private group so not sharing names.  Sorry.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Again, from my experience, going directly to the MTC president for counseling would be bypassing several layers of priesthood line. Nobody I knew had any direct interaction with Bishop. 

Then it sounds like the woman's story is false if we go by your experience.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Got it. 

In describing that time, he states he was out of his depth, he sounds like he was clueless about how to react.  In that case, I can see someone not reacting at all, but hoping the problem would go away on its own if he just kept treating her 'normally'.  

I thought he was out of his depth in dealing with the depressed sister. Either way, I can’t imagine a priesthood leader not reporting something like this. They were constantly going on about how we needed to confess any sins, especially sexual ones. But a sister comes in and does this, and nothing happens. I just dont believe it. 

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not questioning that he met with her. I just find that odd. I’ve known a lot of damaged people, too, and I got an up close and personal view of a psychiatric ward, so I know what people are capable of. I do find it implausible that such an incident would go unreported and the sister have no ecclesiastical consequences. 

On the other side of this, if she was only briefly a missionary, maybe that was the consequence. But it is just as plausible that he got rid of her because of what he did to her. 

So Mormonleaks exposes this woman and then the son piles on. It gets ickier by the minute.

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

MormonLeaks has destroyed his father's reputation.  I can understand him feeling the need to disclose things that would otherwise not be appropriate for public consumption.  He and his father are in extraordinary circumstances.

And not one word for what is being done to the woman who we know nothing about aside from the possibly libelous comments of his unbelievably stupid son. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by juliann

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Then it sounds like the woman's story is false if we go by your experience.

I’m not saying that, just noting it is unusual. 

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, juliann said:

Oh for heaven's sake. You have not conceded anything to the women

What "women?"  What are you talking about?

Quote

and jump on every ridiculous victim blaming counterclaim.

Baloney.  Where have I blamed the woman for her alleged sexual assault?  CFR, chapter and verse, if you please.

Quote

Here is a newspaper article corroborating the wiretapping claims of the other woman you don't think is credible.

This is a load of crapola.  I have no interest in holding women to a different evidentiary standard than men.  I reject the charge.

And I've not seen this article until this moment.  Your accusation is false, and I don't appreciate it.

Quote

How many men do you know who end up in the middle of a wiretapping and sexual assault allegations? 

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/10396624/

First, what "sexual assault allegations" are you referencing here?

Second, from the article:

Quote

Weber State College President Joseph L. Bishop said Thursday that {chief of security at the college} William E. Carver, who was indicted by a federal grand jury on two counts of wiretapping, will retain his job.

...

{Assistant U.S. Attorney Brent} Ward said President Bishop was among several people investigated by the jury, who decided there was insufficient evidence to indict him.

New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler was famously quoted by Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities that "a grand jury would 'indict a ham sandwich,' if that's what you wanted."  And yet the grand jury in this case found "insufficien evidence to indict {Bishop}."  So how is this article inculpatory evidence against Bro. Bishop?

Also from the article:

Quote

The {wiretapping} incidents were not made public until last summer when Bishop and the school's Institutional Council requested the Utah Attorney General's Office begin an investigation.  The Attorney General's Office had said there was not enough evidence for prosecution in the incident.  The wiretapping allegations were brought to light by a former security officer at the college, David Nelson. Nelson went to attorney Richard Richards who initiated an investigation into the charges in early 1974. The former security- officer received six months pay and was terminated in August, 1975. The amount of money paid to Nelson was never specified, but his contract showed his salary was $600 a month. Richards, representing Nelson, said he told Bishop that Nelson had a tape purported to contain wiretapped conversations. Bishop said earlier he took the matter to the Institutional Council where he was instructed to reach a settlement with Nelson to avoid a lawsuit.

The council had recommended Nelson receive the six months severance pay and that Carver be '' terminated or otherwise disciplined." Bishop said that Carver's reprimand was being told never to use wiretapping equipment on the campus until obtaining the permission of the Institutional Council and complying with all legal requirements.

Are you suggesting that Bishop was involved in a wiretapping incident which he reported to the AG's office and requested that they investigate?

How can you to point to this newspaper article 41 years after it was published and call it evidence of misconduct against Joseph Bishop?  I havea surmise as to how, but I'd like to hear your explanation.

-Smac

Edited March 22, 2018 by smac97

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I thought he was out of his depth in dealing with the depressed sister. Either way, I can’t imagine a priesthood leader not reporting something like this. They were constantly going on about how we needed to confess any sins, especially sexual ones. But a sister comes in and does this, and nothing happens. I just dont believe it. 

Someone who has trouble controlling his sexual thoughts to the point he and his son call it an addiction is out of his depth being anywhere around women.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not saying that, just noting it is unusual. 

Definitely that.