MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

He was in a position of ecclesiastical authority over her.  They were in a consecrated place.  He asked her to expose her breasts to him.  And she did.  That is patently predatory behavior on his part and perhaps "disturbed" behavior on hers.

I don't get your complaint here.  Are you suggesting that her behavior demonstrates a mentally strong and acute person?

She seems to have had a troubled life before the MTC.  And Bro. Bishop made her troubles much worse through his execrable behavior.

I seem to recall someone elsewhere in this thread describing her as a "troubled soul."  I'm not sure how that is materially distinguishable from "disturbed young woman."

"Vulnerable" might be a more neutral descriptor here.

Disturbed has the nuance of not being in one's right mind, prone to delusions imo.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

Well, there's also the murder threat.  And the purported series of assault allegations against other men.

In any event, I did not intend to use "disturbed" to disparage her.  At all.

Why aren't you also carping about the person who called her a "troubled soul?"  Selective in your indignance, much?

-Smac

I think she is a troubled soul, so no reason to carp. As I said, I see no reason to call her disturbed when she was a young missionary before all this happened, so I object to your saying that she was.

And I’m not indignant. 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wait...the girl who exposed her breasts wasn't the one the who recorded Bishop was it, or who gave a fake interview? Because I'll bet it was the girl he thought had the breast implants. In the audio I remember him asking about her boob job and she said she never had a boob job and that she was flat chested at that age. Not in those words exactly. So wouldn't it have to be another girl?

From the KUTV article (emphasis added):

Quote

In documents obtained by 2News, a former LDS official admitted to Brigham Young University police that he took a female missionary into a private room in the Missionary Training Center and asked her to expose her breasts.

Joseph L. Bishop, former president of the LDS Church's MTC in Provo, Utah, was recently accused of attempted rape in a recording made by a woman who claimed to be a victim while she was a missionary under his supervision in 1984. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints responded to the recording and transcript of that conversation with a statement.

According to a police report from Dec. 2017, as part of an investigation of the alleged rape, Joseph told detectives that he went with the woman to a small "preparation room" in the cafeteria area of the MTC "and while talking with her, asked her to show him her breasts, which she did."

Sounds like the interviewer is the one who purportedly exposed her breasts to him "in the cafeteria area of the MTC."

Did she include this accusation in her "interview?"  I don't think she did.

If so, it seems odd that he denies most of the specific disturbing allegations during the interview, but then admits a separate incident to the police which the interviewer did not bring up.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Exiled]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  And?

Yes.  And?

I think you'd have a different opinion if your private and sensitive information was published without your consent.

You seem to be a fan of mob rule and the court of public opinion.  I guess we'll have to disagree about the merits of such a thing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Mob rule, no. The people should have a say in what rules they must follow, but society must have rules.

Public announcement of crime works as a good deterrent.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wait...the girl who exposed her breasts wasn't the one the who recorded Bishop was it, or who gave a fake interview? Because I'll bet it was the girl he thought had the breast implants. In the audio I remember him asking about her boob job and she said she never had a boob job and that she was flat chested at that age. Not in those words exactly. So wouldn't it have to be another girl?

Except I think he went to a enhancement because she had earlier said she was small breasted (Maybe said no breasts?) and he assumed the reason she was no longer small was an enhancement.  I don't see anything in the 2/3 I have read that changes my mind about this bit.

He said this where I believe he is referring to earlier in the conversation:

"Well you'd talked about it because you had no boobs at 21 I'd thought you had a new ..."

He had missed where she said she developed after her mission.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

Weaponizing this horrible story to attack a religion you dislike.  Because a member of that religion grossly violated the tenets of that faith and the trust the Church placed in him.

You just couldn't resist, eh?

-Smac

I think you weaponized the story to attack a woman you didn't like rather than waiting for evidence. Funny how that works. So will you now continue to defend yourself or deal with the problem of predatory men?

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From the KUTV article (emphasis added):

Sounds like the interviewer is the one who purportedly exposed her breasts to him "in the cafeteria area of the MTC."

Did she include this accusation in her "interview?"  I don't think she did.

If so, it seems odd that he denies most of the specific disturbing allegations during the interview, but then admits a separate incident to the police which the interviewer did not bring up.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

-Smac

Could have been another woman from what you quoted.  If he did it to one woman, big chance he did it to another.

Otoh, his son said she exposed herself to him.  Seems too much of a coincidence for that to be a random accusation.  Sounds like he was at least trying to get ahead of the police report coming out.

add-on:  police have to be better interrogators than she was which is why it probably was in their report and not hers.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/22/former-missionary-training-center-president-admits-to-asking-a-young-missionary-to-expose-her-breasts-in-the-80s-byu-police-say/

[sunstoned]

It looks like this story has gone national:

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/03/21/us/ap-us-mormon-church-sexual-assault.html

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited March 22, 2018 by Tacenda

[juliann]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

I seem to recall someone elsewhere in this thread describing her as a "troubled soul."  I'm not sure how that is materially distinguishable from "disturbed young woman."

 

 

Wow, really? 

Quote

I did not mean to demean or disparage her.  At all.

That is all you have been doing and continue to do. You have dominated this thread with your defense of this predator while swatting away each and every disclosure that he was actually a predator.  And you really need to do research on the dynamics of sexual abuse.

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

It looks like this story has gone national:

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/03/21/us/ap-us-mormon-church-sexual-assault.html

Not surprising and if covered in the New York Times, this story will spread faster than a virus. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by bsjkki

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/22/former-missionary-training-center-president-admits-to-asking-a-young-missionary-to-expose-her-breasts-in-the-80s-byu-police-say/

"She had shared the recording with several people, she said, and someone gave it to MormonLeaks without her consent."

While I don't believe it is wrong that he was exposed, it saddens me there is yet another example of someone else she trusted taking control of her life out of her hands.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Not surprising and if covered in the New York Times, this story will spread faster than a virus. 

I wonder how much will shift to the debate of whether she reported it prior to 2010 to church leadership and whether he actually confessed or is trying to shift responsibility.

I don't see the police investigating that, I don't believe there was mandatory reporting so no crime if no report.

-----

I have no opinion on prior to 2010 and I can see why they didn't drop his stuff off lds.org if it was a purely he said/she said at the time, but why there wasn't a quiet word not to promote his books bugs me. (Covenant Communications, which published his 2012 book, is owned by DeseretBook these days...pretty sure it was over 5 years when it was purchased).

add-on:  oh great, dedication is by former GA Elder Wells:

"Amidst the uncertainties of life, one thing is sure: we will all face trials, disappointments, and grief. For those who feel overwhelmed by adversity comes this insightful and comforting book by Dr. Joseph L. Bishop. With wisdom born of personal experience, the author explores the stages of grief and the ways in which we can increase the joy in our lives. In its examination of the broader principle of grief, this outstanding gospel resource gently guides the reader on the path toward healing. 

Adversity is a common theme in mortality and can come to us at any time. That fact alone makes the topic of this book so universal that it warrants being in every Church member's home. The author beautifully combines spiritual comfort with practical wisdom resulting in a mature, sweet, and uplifting force that moves you through remorse and suffering and into spiritual well-being. I found it profoundly spiritual because Dr. Bishop continually brings forth eternal truths pleasing to the soul. It is not only a good read but is also a good, standard go-to reference for any trying occasion. Elder Robert E. Wells General Authority Emeritus."

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I wonder how much will shift to the debate of whether she reported it prior to 2010 to church leadership and whether he actually confessed or is trying to shift responsibility.

I don't see the police investigating that, I don't believe there was mandatory reporting so no crime if no report.

I’m still waiting for more victims to come forward but, they may still not want to come forward in a media firestorm and bring to light events they long ago may have buried. I can’t imagine, if these allegations are true, he has not abused more women. It’s too bad , coming forward would still cause immense trauma to a victim. 

The BYU police report contains a confession. It calloborates the tape.

I hope the churches statements on this subject are better written moving forward. 

 

 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I hope the churches statements on this subject are better written moving forward. 

Yeah, the "different story" allows the reader to assume he was innocent.  I am not now happy with that choice if they were aware of the police report...I have been told there is little communication between departments in some areas, but it seems stupidity if that is what happened here and the release definitely has the nuance of knowing more, but not saying because of confidentiality issues.  If KUTV can get the report, why wouldn't the Church's investigators be able to and why wouldn't the press release people get that info from them?

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[Gray]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Nope.  I am not defending Bro. Bishop.  I am explaining why I am declining to condemn him.

You sure sound like you're defending him. I'm just saying for someone who says he's not defending him you've put hundreds of word together of creative defenses for him.

 

Quote

Unless, of course, he was coerced.  Or his mental faculties were impaired.  Then it's not much of a "fact."

Your idea that he might have been coerced or mentally impaired is pure conjecture. His confession is not conjecture.

 

Quote

"Troubling description" from one person in 1980.  Allegations that he was a jerk in the 70s is not really evidence of an attempted rape in 1984.

On balance, you are probably right to some extent.  Where there's smoke and all that.

But guilty of what?

Confessed to what?

Thanks,

-Smac

Here's another piece of evidence:

Former Missionary Training Center president admits to asking a young missionary to expose her breasts in the ’80s, BYU police say

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/22/former-missionary-training-center-president-admits-to-asking-a-young-missionary-to-expose-her-breasts-in-the-80s-byu-police-say/

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Gray

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

I seem to recall someone elsewhere in this thread describing her as a "troubled soul."  I'm not sure how that is materially distinguishable from "disturbed young woman."

Wow, really? 

Yes, really.  

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

That is all you have been doing and continue to do.

Bull.  

And you are, once again, personalizing this thread.  I'd report you, but what's the point of that?

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

You have dominated this thread with your defense of this predator

Malarky.  I have done nothing of the kind.

And you are again personalizing this thread.

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

while swatting away each and every disclosure that he was actually a predator. 

I have differentiated between crappy evidence and competent, probative evidence.  Once the latter arose, I changed my position accordingly.

And I haven't bought into the virtue-signalling "my indignation is better than your indignation" one-upmanship.

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

And you really need to do research on the dynamics of sexual abuse.

And you really need to stop hectoring and personalizing and board nannying.  Just engage the evidence.  Quit vilifying and misrepresenting those who do not kowtow to your personal opinion.

Goodness, but what an unpleasant task interacting with you has become.

-Smac

[smac97]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Could have been another woman from what you quoted.  If he did it to one woman, big chance he did it to another.

Except that the last paragraph I quoted refers to "the woman."  The definite particle, following references to "a woman," would strongly suggest the article is about one woman, not two.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Otoh, his son said she exposed herself to him.  Seems too much of a coincidence for that to be a random accusation.  

Yep.  And the son's recitation put his father in a markedly different light.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sounds like he was at least trying to get ahead of the police report coming out.

Or perhaps he just believes his dad.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

add-on:  police have to be better interrogators than she was which is why it probably was in their report and not hers.

And also why their report is much closer to being competent, probative evidence.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think you weaponized the story to attack a woman you didn't like

Nope.  I declined to condemn a person based on crappy evidence.

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

rather than waiting for evidence.

This is absurd.  I have been the one not passing judgment on the man based on crappy evidence.

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

Funny how that works.

Yes, funny.  I have been attacked for critiquing the evidence, finding it to be crappy, and abstaining from judgment based thereon.  And yet here you are, falsely accusingme of not "waiting for evidence."

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

So will you now continue to defend yourself

Well, yes, I will.  Because you keep insisting on personalizing this thread rather than focusing on the subject.

Quit trying to bully me into silence, Juliann.   Let's discuss the topic instead.  How 'boutit?

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

or deal with the problem of predatory men?

"The problem of predatory men?"  What in the world does that mean?

Not everyone looks at issues through an it's-always-about-gender-and-men-are-horrible lens.

I don't think this is an issue of gender.  It's an issue of power, and the misuse thereof.

-Smac

[smac97]

53 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Mob rule, no. The people should have a say in what rules they must follow, but society must have rules.

Public announcement of crime works as a good deterrent.

I'm glad to hear that.  I'm quite a law-and-order kind of person myself.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

"The problem of predatory men?"  What in the world does that mean?

You really don't know the stats on women who have been sexually harrassed?

Quote

Not everyone looks at issues through an it's-always-about-gender-and-men-are-horrible lens.

Not everyone looks at it as an it's always not about gender and some men aren't horrible lens. See how that works on a message board? See how quickly you try to turn any and every discussion that involves misdeeds of men into an indictment of ALL men? Meanwhile, you showered this thread with an indictment of a woman....yet not one person accused you of saying that all women were horrible. Fancy that. 

Quote

I don't think this is an issue of gender.  It's an issue of power, and the misuse thereof.

False dilemma. It is both.

Edited March 22, 2018 by juliann

[juliann]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

Bull.  

And you are, once again, personalizing this thread.  I'd report you, but what's the point of that?

 

Well, you might get hauled in for language so I understand your hesitancy.

 

Quote

Goodness, but what an unpleasant task interacting with you has become.

And yet here you are, still trying to pound me into submission. 

[provoman]

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

You really don't know the stats on women who have been sexually harrassed?

Not everyone looks at it as an it's always not about gender and some men aren't horrible lens. See how that works on a message board? See how quickly you try to turn any and every discussion that involves misdeeds of men into an indictment of ALL men? Meanwhile, you showered this thread with an indictment of a woman....yet not one person accused you of saying that all women were horrible. Fancy that. 

False dilemma. It is both.

one has to wonder if you read any of smacs post with even a smidging of trying to understand his post. 

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m glad he’s been exposed, as these kinds of cases make it easier for other victims to speak up. Kudos to my cousin. 

Agreed.  Also, perhaps the church will learn from this.