MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[Gray]

Just now, sunstoned said:

Agreed.  Also, perhaps the church will learn from this.  

The coverup always makes it worse. Always. A lesson the Catholic church failed to learn for decades and decades.

[provoman]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yeah, the "different story" allows the reader to assume he was innocent.  I am not now happy with that choice if they were aware of the police report...I have been told there is little communication between departments in some areas, but it seems stupidity if that is what happened here and the release definitely has the nuance of knowing more, but not saying because of confidentiality issues.  If KUTV can get the report, why wouldn't the Church's investigators be able to and why wouldn't the press release people get that info from them?

The Church statement is they had no contact from the police after the individual went to the police in 2010.

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

My issue is that you said he preyed on a disturbed young woman. By my reading, if she’s disturbed in any way, it’s as a result of this assault and how it crushed her soul. 

You don't see her description of her sexually violent alcoholic father (step father?) As a possible source of disturbance?

[sunstoned]

1 minute ago, provoman said:

The Church statement is they had no contact from the police after the individual went to the police in 2010.

The church failed to act for over 30 years.  This man went on to other callings apparently after a GA had been informed of his actions from the victim.   This women was a victim. She is the only victim in whole affair.  She was a young missionary trying to do the right thing and she was abused by a priesthood leader who had authority over her.  The extent of the abuse is still to be determined, but whatever the level it was, it was abuse.  And from what I can tell it has deeply impacted and troubled her life.  Enough that 30 years later she gets on a plane to AZ and interviews this guy. 

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

You don't see her description of her sexually violent alcoholic father (step father?) As a possible source of disturbance?

What possible difference does that make now?  Is it really too much to stop victim blaming when there is now a police report with his admission? This is now about him, not her. 

[smac97]

56 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think she is a troubled soul, so no reason to carp.

A troubled soul, but not "disturbed?"

Holy cow.  What a hairsplit.

For the umpteenth time, I did not intend to disparage her.  Can we get past the indignant-finger-pointing-at-the-thought-crime-of-using-a-term-you-subjectively-dislike schtick, and get back to the topic?  Please?

56 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, I see no reason to call her disturbed when she was a young missionary before all this happened, so I object to your saying that she was.

Oh brother.  In her interview she references her "violently sexually abusive" step-father (p. 25) who was also a pedophile (pp. 33, 38), which is why she says she went to see Bro. Bishop.  She says that Bro. Bishop "hurt" her 33 years prior, that has "struggled for 33 years," and that she "need{s} an apology" (pp. 26, 63).  She says that he "destroyed {her} faith and testimony" (p. 27).  She acknowledges Bro. Bishop's comment that she "had had a tough life" (p. 27).  She states that she had been raped and had a baby and given it up for adoption (p. 28).  She says that after she returned from her mission she "ha{d} not healed" from Bro. Bishop's abuse of her (p. 29), which is why she claims to have spoken with Elder Asay.  She calls herself "a broken woman because of the things {Bro. Bishop} did" (p. 31).  She asks him "{h}ow many other young women in the Church have been destroyed like {her}" because of Bro. Bishop (p. 32).  She tells him that he "ha{s} no f***ing idea the pain {he has} caused {her}" (p. 41).  She speaks of "young vulnerable women, broken women" and includes herself in that characterization (pp. 41, 42).  She says she was "a victim of sexual abuse as a child" (p. 43).  She said repeatedly told Bro. Bishop, that she had threatened to kill him, that she "{has} a gun" (pp. 44, 47), and that another woman had also threatened him, and that he "should probably hide" (p. 43).  She states that she categorically "cannot trust men" (p. 55).  She tells Bro. Bishop that she "ha{s} never recovered" from what he did to her (p. 56).  She says she has "suffered tremendously" from what he did to her (p. 58).  She "absolutely resent{s}" all priesthood leaders because of what Bro. Bishop did (p. 63).  She calls herself "a freak magnet" and she "refuse{s} to let anyone near {her}" (p. 64).  She says "I am damaged" several times (pp. 64-65).  She says she has "no desire to even pretend ... to trust again ever anyone."  (p. 65).  

Can you perhaps accommodate the notion that a person might read these things and conclude that this woman is troubled?  Disturbed?  I don't see a huge difference between these two.

56 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

And I’m not indignant. 

Okay.

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

"Vulnerable" might be a more neutral descriptor here.

Disturbed has the nuance of not being in one's right mind, prone to delusions imo.

Okay.

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, juliann said:

And yet here you are, still trying to pound me into submission. 

Oh, brother.

We can't seem to get along.  How about we just leave each other alone, then?  I'll start it.

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

You sure sound like you're defending him. I'm just saying for someone who says he's not defending him you've put hundreds of word together of creative defenses for him.

Only if "defending him" = "declining to publicly condemn him based on crappy evidence."

Now that there is, apparently, competent and probative evidence against him, I have changed my position.

Have you noticed that?

Quote

Your idea that he might have been coerced or mentally impaired is pure conjecture.

Not really.  She really did use false pretenses to lure him into a private, one-on-one "interview."  That's not "conjecture." 

She really did repeatedly reference her previous threats to murder him.  That's not "conjecture."

He really is 85 years old, and was recovering from a heart attack at the time of the "interview."  That's not "conjecture."

And pointing these things out is not a "defense" of Bro. Bishop.  It is a critique of poor evidence.

Quote

His confession is not conjecture.

"His confession" is crappy evidence.

Quote

Here's another piece of evidence:

Former Missionary Training Center president admits to asking a young missionary to expose her breasts in the ’80s, BYU police say

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/22/former-missionary-training-center-president-admits-to-asking-a-young-missionary-to-expose-her-breasts-in-the-80s-byu-police-say/

Yep.  Seen it.  I've changed my position according to the contents of this story (and the KUTV story), which I find to be substantially more competent, probative evidence.

As opposed to the "interview," which I found to be crappy evidence.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 22, 2018 by smac97

[juliann]

38 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The church failed to act for over 30 years.  This man went on to other callings apparently after a GA had been informed of his actions from the victim.   This women was a victim. She is the only victim in whole affair.  She was a young missionary trying to do the right thing and she was abused by a priesthood leader who had authority over her.  The extent of the abuse is still to be determined, but whatever the level it was, it was abuse.  And from what I can tell it has deeply impacted and troubled her life.  Enough that 30 years later she gets on a plane to AZ and interviews this guy. 

I do think we have to remember the era in which this actually happened. That was a time when women who went on missions were thought to be the ones who couldn't get married. It wasn't cool like it is today. His comments probably need to be seen through that lens as he talks about them needing counseling and such. I hadn't been out of college long when this happened. I was asked in my first job interview, in SLC, why I didn't major in Home Ec. I went to CA. I was asked if I planned on getting married in that interview. It was a much different world and this guy never left it, apparently. The immediate response back then was to question the woman and defend the man.  I'm not really surprised by any of this. This was when Kennedy could run a car off a bridge and drown a woman and carry on as usual. (*edit, oops,  I'm mixing up the 70s when the first problems at Weber began with a woman. This incident was later. But I see no evidence his attitude changed.)

Then to have to deal with this decades later, I'm going to have a little sympathy for the church. And I'm going to hope that much tighter conditions are placed on men in these positions. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by juliann

[provoman]

15 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The church failed to act for over 30 years.  This man went on to other callings apparently after a GA had been informed of his actions from the victim.   This women was a victim. She is the only victim in whole affair.  She was a young missionary trying to do the right thing and she was abused by a priesthood leader who had authority over her.  The extent of the abuse is still to be determined, but whatever the level it was, it was abuse.  And from what I can tell it has deeply impacted and troubled her life.  Enough that 30 years later she gets on a plane to AZ and interviews this guy. 

What was the failure to act 30 years ago and do you mean 33 years ago? What evidence do you offer? What we have is “that one said v that one said.” The person who issued multiple death threats said she talked to Elder Asay, the statement from the Church is that there is no record of such a meeting. 

[kllindley]

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

What possible difference does that make now?  Is it really too much to stop victim blaming when there is now a police report with his admission? This is now about him, not her. 

Good grief! Smac said that the man preyed upon disturbed missionaries. I think that this guy was on the lookout for vulnerable young women. Noting that her background likely made her look like an easy target to him is absolutely not blaming the victim or defending him. I think it's all the more damning that he was taking advantage of her vulnerability. 

[smac97]

From the Deseret News:

Quote

In an interview with BYU University Police three months ago, Joseph L. Bishop, 85, said he asked a missionary to expose her breasts to him in a room at the MTC in 1984, which she did, but he denied her allegation that he raped her.

The new information came from a University Police case report originally released as a heavily redacted document to the Deseret News on Tuesday through an open-records request. On Wednesday evening, after reviewing Utah’s open-records laws, University Police re-sent the report with much of the redaction lifted, including a recounting of the interview with Bishop.

"Joseph’s account was fairly similar to (hers) except for the rape," Sgt. Robert Nelson wrote in the report. "Joseph told us that he did go to his small MTC preparation room in the cafeteria area with (her). Then while talking to her he asked her to show him her breasts, which she did."

Appalling.  Evil, even.  Such a gross abuse of trust.  Hers.  The Church's.  Everyone was betrayed by this man.

Quote

Through his son, Bishop continued Wednesday night to adamantly deny committing any crimes.

"He was very clear there was not sexual activity, whether consensual or non-consensual," Gregory Bishop said.

Gregory Bishop said his father told him the woman exposed her breasts to him on her own in the summer of 1985 when she came to him for help after her mission, not in 1984 at the MTC.

They'll have to reconcile this denial with Bro. Bishop's statement to the BYU police.

Quote

Posing as a reporter, the woman confronted Bishop at his home in Arizona at the start of December 2017. She recorded that conversation. MormonLeaks released the recording on Monday without the permission of the woman, who told the Deseret News she was unhappy with the release, which she said created problems for her.

I figured as much.

Quote

Nelson said in the report that detectives listened to the recording, and he concluded it was consistent with the detectives’ interviews with the woman on Dec. 4 and Bishop on Dec. 5, except for whether a rape happened and the room’s layout. The woman told detectives the room had a bed, TV and VHS tapes. Bishop said it did not.

So the attempted rape is still in dispute.  But there was another instance of inexcusable sexual misconduct by Bro. Bishop while he was the MTC president.  That seems pretty hard to deny at this point.

Quote

Gregory Bishop said his father's memory of the time is foggy and that he was on medication after heart surgery when the tape was made. He said his father was holding himself to his own higher standard for a church leader when he said he was a sex addict and had molested the other woman.

Gregory Bishop also questioned the credibility of the woman who made the tape because of her criminal history and accusations she has made against other men.

The woman confirmed that some of that history is valid when she spoke Tuesday with the Deseret News, but she said it does not alter what she said happened with Bishop.

So the woman's credibility problems are borne out after all, even though some elements of her accusations against Bro. Bishop have been substantiated.

Quote

In the University Police report, Nelson said he and another detective on the case asked Bishop to explain "why his account of the rape was different from the woman’s."

1 comment on this story
"He said he either can’t remember it or that (she) was exaggerating her account," Nelson stated.

In a statement released by the church Monday, LDS spokesman Eric Hawkins said the woman's allegation is "very serious and deeply disturbing."

"If the allegations of sexual assault are true," he added, "it would be a tragic betrayal of our standards and would result in action by the church to formally discipline any member who was guilty of such behavior, especially someone in a position of trust."

Quite so. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

Maybe the news of Bishop’s Dec 2017 confession will be enough to prompt the church to show a little more compassion to the victim.  Oh wait... they likely knew that already.  Church leaders were happy to go along like nothing had happened, continuing to sell his books, until MormonLeaks broke the story. 

I’ll reiterate what I wrote yesterday... I really hope that President Nelson will use this as a defining moment of his presidency and make some significant changes in the church.  

 

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Maybe the news of Bishop’s Dec 2017 confession will be enough to prompt the church to show a little more compassion to the victim.  

In what way?  She's not a member of the Church.  What would you expect the Church to do "to show a little more compassion" to her?

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Oh wait... they likely knew that already.  

How so?

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Church leaders were happy to go along like nothing had happened, continuing to sell his books, until MormonLeaks broke the story. 

"Church leaders" are directly involved in which books are sold by Deseret Book?

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I’ll reiterate what I wrote yesterday... I really hope that President Nelson will use this as a defining moment of his presidency and make some significant changes in the church.  

What "significant changes" do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In what way?  She's not a member of the Church.  What would you expect the Church to do "to show a little more compassion" to her?

How so?

"Church leaders" are directly involved in which books are sold by Deseret Book?

What "significant changes" do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

Does she need to be a member to receive compassion from the Brethren?

As had been discussed, the press release tried to poison the well against her, the victim. 

Do you think that the police at the church owned university would not have told church authorities that a former MTC president confessed to sexual misconduct with a missionary?  You think they sat on that info?

Who do you think made the call, on the day MormonLeaks broke the story, to remove Bishop’s books and author bio from DeseretBook.com?  

I’ve already mentioned the changes I think need to happen.  But since we have a leader who claims to receive direct revelation from God, perhaps President Nelson will have some even better suggestions.  

[rockpond]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In what way?  She's not a member of the Church.  What would you expect the Church to do "to show a little more compassion" to her?

How so?

"Church leaders" are directly involved in which books are sold by Deseret Book?

What "significant changes" do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

p.s.  As someone who actually listened to the audio and heard no indication of dementia, this latest police report does not come as a surprise. If anyone wonders why so much sexual abuse goes unreported they need only look at this thread and how many people jumped at the opportunity to disparage the victim and attribute the confessions of the perpetrator to his “dementia” and “medication”. 

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, rockpond said:

p.s.  As someone who actually listened to the audio and heard no indication of dementia, this latest police report does not come as a surprise. If anyone wonders why so much sexual abuse goes unreported they need only look at this thread and how many people jumped at the opportunity to disparage the victim and attribute the confessions of the perpetrator to his “dementia” and “medication”. 

I am the one who pushed the idea of dementia the most.  I still believe he has some because the back and forth content just doesn't work in places and that needs to be explained, but as I said before I now, after reading most of the transcript, just think the dementia makes it hard for him to follow others' conversation.  He appears totally coherent when speaking his own thoughts (specifically when he is speaking for longer periods of time).  I also have said from the beginning just because he has dementia (if he actually has it and it is not just me projecting my mom and others on to him) doesn't mean he is innocent.  Just as I think her comments being all jumbled up and scattered doesn't mean she wasn't a victim.   

I think the purpose of the interview was validation, not testifying...if it was the latter, I think she would have been more careful and led him more, giving him more time to convict himself (the transcript has her cutting him off a lot, showing incompleted thoughts of his when he was confessing as well as denying, I may be reading it wrong though; honestly, the more he talked the worse he looked, if he had kept his mouth shut I might have been shocked by the police report...nah, the confessing primed me too much for him being a creep).  She seemed to have in her mind a checklist of somethings she wanted to say as well as stuff he said triggering some thoughts that took the focus off him (her telling of her out of body experience as a kid).  It also sounds like she didn't get her validation from him.  Maybe she was trying to get it by sharing it with some people because of at least his partial confession showed she wasn't off her rocker about him.  I am hoping she is okay with the way she has eventually gotten it and that all the attention doesn't aggravate any issues she might have about trust and self esteem.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Does she need to be a member to receive compassion from the Brethren?

As had been discussed, the press release tried to poison the well against her, the victim. 

Do you think that the police at the church owned university would not have told church authorities that a former MTC president confessed to sexual misconduct with a missionary?  You think they sat on that info?

Who do you think made the call, on the day MormonLeaks broke the story, to remove Bishop’s books and author bio from DeseretBook.com?  

I’ve already mentioned the changes I think need to happen.  But since we have a leader who claims to receive direct revelation from God, perhaps President Nelson will have some even better suggestions.  

This is the most disturbing thing about this whole incident.  To let this man continue in his positions of power is inexcusable.  i love how there is an honor code at BYU where students are required to report bad conduct from other students.  Are we now to believe that BYU police are not required to report bad conduct concerning a man in this kind of position in the church to the owners of the University? If the incident that WAS confirmed is not important enough to inform church leaders, then what exactly is important enough to get them involved.  Honestly it is very hard to believe that church leaders did not know about what happened other than the fact that knowing and not doing anything is such an egregious misuse of trust it undermines everything we are suppose to believe about church leaders.  I admit, I personally lost that trust years ago.

And the fact that BYU police tried to redact it NOW is even more disturbing.  Thank goodness there are laws that required them to release the full report.  

[Vanguard]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

p.s.  As someone who actually listened to the audio and heard no indication of dementia, this latest police report does not come as a surprise. If anyone wonders why so much sexual abuse goes unreported they need only look at this thread and how many people jumped at the opportunity to disparage the victim and attribute the confessions of the perpetrator to his “dementia” and “medication”. 

"...heard no indication of dementia". Wow! It must be nice to be so certain. ; ) And especially gratifying to in turn to disparage those who honestly believed - including myself - that dementia may be playing a roll in his ability to recollect events and how this inability could have colored the details of the "interview". Things would have been so much easier had those apologists simply took your word for it from the getgo. Silly people! Good grief... : (

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is the most disturbing thing about this whole incident.  To let this man continue in his positions of power is inexcusable.  i love how there is an honor code at BYU where students are required to report bad conduct from other students.  Are we now to believe that BYU police are not required to report bad conduct concerning a man in this kind of position in the church to the owners of the University? 

BYU police learned about it this past year, right?  He wasn't in a position of real authority, was he, last year? 

I am not saying this justifies not telling them, but it makes it understandable.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

I thought they wrote the original report.  My mistake.  Sorry I can’t view the trib article

Edited March 22, 2018 by california boy

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I thought they wrote the original report.  My mistake.  Sorry I can’t view the trib article

No problem.  It is complicated and hard to keep details straight, especially when claims were made but no documentation exists one way or the other (how do you prove a victim reported something but it was ignored as opposed to she didn't report it, but claims she did?).

The first police to get involved was in Pleasant Grove in 2010 when apparently she reported the abuse to local church leaders, but also threatened to kill him.  PG police said they just investigated the threat iirc, but the report has this language:  "Contact was made with the suspect who recited a different version of the story," the police report states. "No further action was taken."

BYU Police was contacted this last November and they turned their findings (one interview of the woman, one of Bishop) over to Utah County, which declined to prosecute because it was too late.  Would have done it otherwise, according to their person.

I can see why BYU might be reluctant over sharing rape accusations files with nonPolice organizations after getting trashed for using a Provo Police file in an honor code investigation.  They apparently gave a very redacted version to the Church and the public until KUTV appealed.  (Can someone confirm my memory is correct that somewhere it was said the Church got the redacted version?)

-----

Looks like I got interrupted when reading the SLT article before and didn't realize it:

"The Colorado woman told The Tribune she reported her sexual-assault allegation to her LDS singles ward bishop in Utah County in 1987, after serving a mission. She offered the bishop as a corroborating witness, saying he arranged for her to speak with Asay, a member of the Quorum of the Seventy. 

But the bishop, who asked not to be named, said in an interview with The Tribune that he didn’t believe her, nor did he tell any superiors."

So another part of her claim is confirmed, but not completely.  The Bishop may be falling on his sword to protect Elder Asay or telling the truth.

"According to a Pleasant Grove police report, however, that report was about the woman’s threat to kill Bishop, which she told an officer had been a joke. The church did not respond to a request for comment Wednesday on whether it had forwarded her sexual assault claim to a law enforcement agency with jurisdiction over the MTC."

Hopefully they will clarify.  If they are in the middle of a settlement negotiation as she claims, it is understandable if it wasn't done well or at all, they are waiting on releasing the info (not saying it makes me happy).

"In 2016, the woman contacted an LDS stake president in Pueblo, Colo."

Any one come across info on what happened on this occasion (since there now seems little question she made these contacts)?

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm

[jpv]

Elder Wells needs to be held accountable. The church needs to be transparent about Wells in particular.

Bishop said he confessed to him prior to his MTC call and days the last person that should have been in that situation as me.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jpv said:

Elder Wells needs to be held accountable. The church needs to be transparent about Wells in particular.

Bishop said he confessed to him prior to his MTC call and days the last person that should have been in that situation as me.

I don't think he said what he confessed though.  What if he just told Wells he had the typical issues of a typical man and left out all the red flags?

The guy says he doesn't remember a rape when he does remember asking her to expose herself.  One heavy duty case of dementia if he is for real and if he isn't (which imo is much more likely, he might have enough dementia to get screwed up in making conversation but he was razor sharp on the events going on at the same time as the alleged rape when given the chance to talk uninterrupted)...either way, why should we trust anything he says that shifts his responsibility on to someone else or minimizes what he did (I suffer so much...gag me).

Wells is 90.  He did write a glowing foreword for Bishop's 2012 book, unless someone wrote it for him (I am sorry, I have watched and read endless mysteries with twists, never make assumptions, prove every theory, and then there are all those science, math, theory, pysch research and logic classes...control for all variables...and then there was the sheer joy of being contrariwise when my grandparents were acting silly---mild bigotry got me going first, then they all got paranoia and bitter with some friends every now as old people do and then Igot to lecture them on giving the benefit of the doubt as a good Mormon would someone to do for them, right? They never bought it, but I talked myself into it down to my DNA.)  look for any out...so you can prove it right or wrong, not to use as an excuse except for the excuse to not get offended when you don't know why they did something...

Oops, look like bedtime rambling just hit without me noticing.  Signing off...I hope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Wells

Totally off topic but Wells' wife in 1960 was a pilot...quite unusual for a woman back then.  That made me smile...sadly since she died in bad weather flying a plane.

Oh, that Wells!  "Wells is the father of seven children, including Sharlene Wells, Miss America 1985."

Wells looks like he was (is?) in Chile since 77:  "February 1977, Wells took up residence in Santiago, Chile, as the church's area representative for Chile, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay.[3] From 1998 to 2001, Wells was president of the church's Santiago Chile Temple.[4]"

Lives in N SL now:

https://www.whitepages.com/name/Robert-Earl-Wells/North-Salt-Lake-UT/uitsjeu

Edited March 22, 2018 by Calm