Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

[Rain]

On 6/16/2018 at 9:56 AM, changed said:

 

Perhaps it is also a sin to test someone beyond what they are able to endure.... 

To me, suicide is proof that people are tested beyond their limits, and whose sin does that one fall on?  Sins of omission are involved - of not supporting one another, of G-d not being there for people - victim shaming?  the victim sinned?  I suppose it is easier to blame the victim than to blame others for pushing them to these extremes.  

Having been at the point of suicide twice (once within hours with a plan and once within minutes) and having various suicidal thoughts flash through my head on occasion I can't tell you how much this bothers me.  In fact it angers me. The third thing that came to mind the second time around was how devastated my husband would be. I canot begin to tell you how much blame he would put on himself, let alone what others would have done yet he was a huge support and did everything he could. 

There is no one in my life either time that I felt was a lack of support. This was something INSIDE of me that had to be dealt with. 

Talking about the "blame" helps no one. Blame has an assumption of guilt tied to it. Now if you want to talk about cause and effect then I'll go with it, but having gone through what I did, the minute you start looking at only one cause or one main cause you are going to miss the complicated network that created the problem and if we are focused on "blame" we will get nowhere. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Rain

[FearlessFixxer]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm looking forward to seeing it. I'm anticipating a fair and diplomatic documentary. It may not be perfectly rosy, but I don't suspect it will be a hit piece either.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

[jkwilliams]

Just now, FearlessFixxer said:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

For some people, there is no such thing as constructive criticism of the church. 

[Rain]

I really like the "it gets better" idea linked above. The second thought I had my second time around was that it "got better last time. It can get better this time." 

I have shared that with people with the statement that I understood if they didn’t believe me because I wouldn't have believed me the first time around. It won't make a difference for some, but may for others. 

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

This response is not out of disagreement about the documentary. I there is positive, I will appreciate it. 

This response also is not meant as a criticism of you personally or nit-picking this specific comment.

With that said: I am deeply bothered by the rhetorical implications of this type of statement. It attempts to delegitimize any potential disagreement. In a civil society, if I see the documentary as a hit piece, I may be right or I may be wrong.  But in today's polarized climate, exemplified by this comment, if I see it as a hit piece, I'm not rational. I'm not just wrong, I'm crazy. No discussion or dialogue can take place. 

I'm not saying this only happens on "one side." And I need to do a better job at calling it out when it's "my side." But I believe that we will all benefit from respectfully disagreeing and discussing our differences. 

[FearlessFixxer]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

For some people, there is no such thing as constructive criticism of the church. 

Touché

[FearlessFixxer]

45 minutes ago, kllindley said:

This response is not out of disagreement about the documentary. I there is positive, I will appreciate it. 

This response also is not meant as a criticism of you personally or nit-picking this specific comment.

With that said: I am deeply bothered by the rhetorical implications of this type of statement. It attempts to delegitimize any potential disagreement. In a civil society, if I see the documentary as a hit piece, I may be right or I may be wrong.  But in today's polarized climate, exemplified by this comment, if I see it as a hit piece, I'm not rational. I'm not just wrong, I'm crazy. No discussion or dialogue can take place. 

I'm not saying this only happens on "one side." And I need to do a better job at calling it out when it's "my side." But I believe that we will all benefit from respectfully disagreeing and discussing our differences. 

You make a fair point

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 

I did not mean to indicate all the tests are "objective" but certainly some of them are designed with a certain science of determining objectivity. A agree that some of the tests a patient can clearly cheat on if they want. Anyway, my assertion stands that the testing does make psychology at least partially an empirical science. Some of the tests are pretty good at catching fakers. 

The last idiot psychologist who administered a battery of tests to me concluded that the pattern of my responses is consistent with someone who is attempting to present himself favorably. (I wish I were as smart as he apparently thinks I am ... )

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The last idiot psychologist who administered a battery of tests to me concluded that the pattern of my responses is consistent with someone who is attempting to present himself favorably. (I wish I were as smart as he apparently thinks I am ... )

I was taught they had to have special measures for Mormons because they often routinely did what others would often say they did, but didn't when trying to look good...such as pray daily, study scriptures daily, go the church every Sunday.

Not saying we are routinely better, only expectations are different.  Our culture teaches these things as requirements rather than just good things to do if you choose so.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was taught they had to have special measures for Mormons because they often routinely did what others would often say they did, but didn't when trying to look good...such as pray daily, study scriptures daily, go the church every Sunday.

Not saying we are routinely better, only expectations are different.  Our culture teaches these things as requirements rather than just good things to do if you choose so.

And then there's the noted psychologist Joy Behar, who thinks its OK if someone talks to God, but he's gotta be crazy if he thinks God talks back to him (said of Mike Pence).

[jkwilliams]

A family member came out as gay recently, and my first thought was, Thank heavens he’s not in the church and doesn’t have to deal with all of that. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

A family member came out as gay recently, and my first thought was, Thank heavens he’s not in the church and doesn’t have to deal with all of that. 

I can imagine what people would say if my first thought when hearing someone was marrying outside the temple was "what a shame they won't have a real family".

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can imagine what people would say if my first thought when hearing someone was marrying outside the temple was "what a shame they won't have a real family".

That is not what I meant at all. His non-LDS family treated his being gay as basically trivial. I think it would have been a huge deal if he were on the Mormon side of the family. Not surprisingly, he isn’t going to tell his LDS grandparents (my parents). I don’t blame him, as I would describe their attitude toward homosexuals as loathing and contempt, only those words aren’t strong enough. 

I can see how what I wrote would be offensive to you, but I do believe it’s much harder to be gay and Mormon than outside of the church. 

[Calm]

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

[jkwilliams]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

I can’t imagine coming out would have been a non-event for my family member had he been LDS. I guess we’ll have to disagree that the church is a difficult place for gay kids. 

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I can imagine what people would say if my first thought when hearing someone was marrying outside the temple was "what a shame they won't have a real family".

Which is exactly the church position when gay couples get married.  "what a shame they won't have a real family".  Only difference is that the church does not go after the couple marrying outside the temple with labels of apostate and barring their children from ordinances.

Calm, your post summarizes exactly why a gay person should distance themselves from the church if they want a healthy and normal life that the rest of the congregation is encouraged to enjoy.

Like JK, I absolutely agree with his first reaction.  

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

Because it isn't really hard?  Picture your own life without your husband. Without your children.  Take away every single memory of every single romantic date you have ever been on.  Every kiss, every hug you every received by someone who loved you romantically.  

I can think of nothing but sadness for a person who chooses such a life with the IMO false belief that God wants it that way simply because he was born gay.  

Edited June 21, 2018 by california boy

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Which is exactly the church position when gay couples get married.  "what a shame they won't have a real family".  Only difference is that the church does not go after the couple marrying outside the temple with labels of apostate and barring their children from ordinances.

Calm, your post summarizes exactly why a gay person should distance themselves from the church if they want a healthy and normal life that the rest of the congregation is encouraged to enjoy.

Like JK, I absolutely agree with his first reaction.  

To be honest, my first reaction was that I was glad he knew he could talk to his parents about this without fear of rejection. My second thought was that it changed nothing about my relationship with him, which has always been fairly close. He's a good kid, and his sexual orientation is of no consequence to me or to my family (other than my parents, but then no one is telling them).

He's at the age at which, were he LDS, he'd be expected to serve a mission and later get married in the temple. By that age, he would have been taught all his life that his eternal destiny is to have an eternal heterosexual marriage and become like God. And he would have learned that a sexually active gay person is not worthy of church ordinances; if he wanted to marry someone of the same sex, he would be considered an apostate. My family member didn't get any of that, and of course I'm happy he doesn't have to deal with all of that, as at best he would have had to struggle with confusion, shame, and guilt that I don't believe he has experienced outside of the church. When we were at this family member's place of worship in the Bay Area last year, my parents made derisive remarks about the rainbow flag and gay resources bulletin board hanging in the foyer. But it told me that he had been taught from an early age that he would be accepted and welcomed, no matter what.

If you're gay and in the church, it seems to me you have three choices: live a life of quiet celibacy, marry someone of the opposite gender and hope that works, or leave the church and find a partner or spouse. None of these is a particularly easy option, and I would say someone faced with that choice doesn't need anyone to tell them how hard they have it. It wouldn't suddenly become easy if no one ever said it was going to be hard.

One of my coworkers at my new job is openly gay. I didn't find out until last week that he was LDS and had served a mission. He described to me how hard he had tried to make things work, resigning himself to a life of celibacy. By the end of his mission, he felt so much despair at the prospect of such a life that he thought of taking his own life. Fortunately, he didn't do it, and after he returned from his mission, he walked away from the church and is living a happy and fulfilling life. I would never tell anyone how to live their life, but I think he made the right choice for him.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by jkwilliams

[HappyJackWagon]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

Do you think they need to be told how hard they have it? I think they know. On the other hand I think it is beneficial to many in the LGBT community to know they are supported and loved without condition.

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you think they need to be told how hard they have it? I think they know. On the other hand I think it is beneficial to many in the LGBT community to know they are supported and loved without condition.

I can see how what I said could be taken as a gratuitous swipe against the church. This topic just reminded me of my family member, and I wrote down my thoughts without really thinking them through. I meant what I said, but I probably could have said it a little more diplomatically. To me, there's no place for same-sex relationships in LDS theology, and that is always going to make it hard on gay members. 

[JulieM]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

I don’t think they need to be told or reminded, they already know.  (I don’t see that’s what jkwilliams was doing either).  It’s getting easier and more accepted to come out to family members.  I have a sister-in-law who lived in anguish for years before she finally had the courage to come out.  She’s had mixed reactions and she does have it hard.  She’s finally found someone who we feel is perfect for her and they are planning to marry within a year.  I’m very happy for her as she deserves some joy in her life!

Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

I don’t think they need to be told or reminded, they already know.  (I don’t see that’s what jkwilliams was doing either).  It’s getting easier and more accepted to come out to family members.  I have a sister-in-law who lived in anguish for years before she finally had the courage to come out.  She’s had mixed reactions and she does have it hard.  She’s finally found someone who we feel is perfect for her and they are planning to marry within a year.  I’m very happy for her as she deserves some joy in her life!

For some reason, you made me think of Karl Pilkington's thoughts on bees: "They're not actually meant to fly. It's only because they don't know. ... If they were told that you're not actually designed to fly, they wouldn't bother."

 

[smac97]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

Yep.  Here we go again.  Critics and opponents of the Church appear to find this sort of think irresistible.

As pertaining to the relationship between gays and the LDS Church, I said this a few months back (responding to a question about what the Church should do in this situation, particularly regarding gay suicides):

Quote

I wonder if a similar question can be asked of the LGBT folks and their "allies" who have arrayed themselves in opposition to the LDS Church.

Perhaps they could stop grossly mischaracterizing the Church's teachings and policies regarding LGBT folks.

And stop with the vitriolic and over-the-top rhetoric.

And stop with the efforts to alienate young gay Latter-day Saints from their faith and their families by asserting - falsely - that we hate them, that we hate gay people and their children.

And stop putting the worst possible spin on the policy.

And stop having enemies and critics of the Church presume to speak for the Church to LDS children about what the Church teaches and believes, and let's stop saying horrible and false things to those children about the Church's teachings.

And stop having enemies and critics of the Church putting false words into the mouths of the leaders of the Church.

And stop working to publicly foment anger about and discord within and hate against the Church.

And perhaps they could give the Church some room to, you know, teach what it sincerely believes, and then let those teachings stand (or fall) on their merits.

It bears repetition here, I think.

There are people who seem bound and determined to foment antagonism between these two groups, to alienate them from each other, usually through endless public declarations about how horrible and toxic the LDS Church is.  I find that pretty appalling.

-Smac

[Storm Rider]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

For some people, there is no such thing as constructive criticism of the church. 

I disagree on this point - constructive criticism is always helpful. I suspect where we might disagree is what we define as constructive criticism. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  Here we go again.  Critics and opponents of the Church appear to find this sort of think irresistible.

As pertaining to the relationship between gays and the LDS Church, I said this a few months back (responding to a question about what the Church should do in this situation, particularly regarding gay suicides):

It bears repetition here, I think.

There are people who seem bound and determined to foment antagonism between these two groups, to alienate them from each other, usually through endless public declarations about how horrible and toxic the LDS Church is.  I find that pretty appalling.

-Smac

Hmmm. Since she was responding to me, I'm assuming you're suggesting I am bound and determined to foment antagonism, etc. I don't think the church hates gay people. I haven't used vitriolic rhetoric. I haven't mischaracterized the church's policies or put the worst spin on it. I don't presume to speak for the church to children, and I've never said anything false or horrible to any children (or adults) about the church's teachings. I haven't put false words into anyone's mouth. I am not fomenting anger, discord, or hate. And I'm perfectly willing to let the church do as it sees fit. 

But yes, I do think it's difficult for gay kids in the church, and I'm glad my family member isn't in that difficult situation. Either that, or I just find it impossible to resist the temptation to vilify the church any chance I get. 🙄