Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

[kllindley]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not going to rehash my argument from last year. It’s simply a fact that some kids will attend church regularly and not be allowed to be baptized. I’m sorry for “not you, Timmy,” which I ironically said when you accused me of having nothing but emotion behind my disagreement. 

As for being thankful, I have said I meant I am thankful my family member doesn’t have to deal with the issues he would have were he in the church. I don’t celebrate anyone leaving the church. 

I have tried to be civil, and I apologize for apparently failing. 

Again, just my 72 cents, but I don't think you were being uncivil. Or saying anything mean. 

I hope my attempt to draw attention to the impact of our implicit narratives has not come across as personally attacking you. If so, please let me know how or which comments, so I can do better in the future. 

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I’m saying that both sides can work on being more civil and all views are welcome to be expressed as long as it doesn’t get into personal attacks or insults.  This is an important and relevant topic for many members.  That’s not going to change and I believe it’s only going to get more so as more youth and others are feeling safer about coming out.  Also more members are accepting SSM.  It’s a topic that will continue to be discussed.  That’s a good thing too, IMO.  If some don’t like that, maybe just avoid those topics here?  That’s worked for me with some topics.

I think there is merit to what Smac has said about not filling the minds of impressionable young people with false notions about what the Church does and does not say on this topic, about allowing the Church to express its own position as opposed to presuming falsely to speak for it and about  forebearing from fomenting discord in and potentially dividing families over this matter. That’s all part of civility too. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you think they need to be told how hard they have it? I think they know. On the other hand I think it is beneficial to many in the LGBT community to know they are supported and loved without condition.

I think realistic explanations should be given without assumptions of how they will find it, allowing them to draw their own judgments and have their own reactions rather than pushing them into a one size fits all box.  I have invariably found people who are told something is hard over and over will find it is a burden, especially if it is themselves saying it.  Otoh, people who are presented with life as a challenge with an understanding that many things will take hard work, but will be worth it find they are able to overcome, in my experience.

It is somewhat similar to my daughter's doctors and therapists telling us over and over don't call your daughter a diabetic or let her speak of herself that way.  She is an individual who, along with many other things in her life, experiences diabetes.  The first turns her into the disorder, the rest of her fading in importance and value.  Life becomes all about the disease.  The second allows her to view it as something she can have control over.

This can happen with pretty much anything from what I have seen, commitment to developing talents drop once friends start telling a youth the hours they are putting in are ridiculously hard, developing a physical regimen for sports or health becomes not worth it once the self talk of "this is hard" starts, cancer kid losing hope and suffering more when people focus too much on how horrible it is he has to deal with it.  The comments "I am so grateful I don't have to live with what you do, I could never live that way" attached to whatever may seem like a compliment to many, but from what I hear and live it sucks hope out of life.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I think there is merit to what Smac has said about not filling the minds of impressionable young people with false notions about what the Church does and does not say on this topic, about allowing the Church to express its own position as opposed to presuming falsely speak for it and about  forebearing from fomenting discord in and potentially dividing families over this matter. That’s all part of civility too. 

I'm still wondering who is doing this mind-filling of children. I'm all for not fomenting discord, but I haven't seen it in this thread.

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Have I said that? What I have said is that there is no place in LDS theology for same-sex relationships; and that a gay member must live a life of celibacy, which is an awful burden. Can some people be happy doing that? I'm sure there are people out there who can. But whatever I say isn't going to make it any easier or more difficult to be gay and Mormon. 

I don't think you said that explicitly. I think it could be inferred from you comment in the context of the very dominant narrative. 

I agree with you about theology, if we restict that to same-sex romantic or marriage relationships. My relationships of brotherhood and close friendship are extremely fulfilling to me. I am especially grateful for a theology that honors those relationships and provides a framework for them to be eternal. 

Also, I wouldn't down play the influence of your words. I know that I am certainly lifted by supportive comments and my burdens are added to by other comments, even on an anonymous internet board.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, kllindley said:

I don't think you said that explicitly. I think it could be inferred from you comment in the context of the very dominant narrative. 

I agree with you about theology, if we restict that to same-sex romantic or marriage relationships. My relationships of brotherhood and close friendship are extremely fulfilling to me. I am especially grateful for a theology that honors those relationships and provides a framework for them to be eternal. 

Also, I wouldn't down play the influence of your words. I know that I am certainly lifted by supportive comments and my burdens are added to by other comments, even on an anonymous internet board.

I hope I have not burdened anyone with my comments. I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I stand by my belief that it's very difficult to be gay and Mormon. Saying that does not imply that church members hate gay people or don't want them around. It's just a fact that it's difficult. 

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think there is merit to what Smac has said about not filling the minds of impressionable young people with false notions about what the Church does and does not say on this topic, about allowing the Church to express its own position as opposed to presuming falsely speak for it and about  forebearing from fomenting discord in and potentially dividing families over this matter. That’s all part of civility too. 

Absolutely. Those are my concerns. And I think it's valid to recognize that there have been a few more . . . Fundamentalist? Ultraconservative?. . . Posters who likewise fill impressionable young minds with false notions about what the Church teaches and advocating mistreatment of LGBT. 

I know in the past that I didn't generally confront those as actively as I confront the more "liberal" views.  

[JulieM]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think there is merit to what Smac has said about not filling the minds of impressionable young people with false notions about what the Church does and does not say on this topic, about allowing the Church to express its own position as opposed to presuming falsely speak for it and about  forebearing from fomenting discord in and potentially dividing families over this matter.

I didn’t see that being done (by jkwilliams).  He was expressing an honest view.  I agree that for some gay members, staying in the church isn’t healthy or good for them.  For others (kllindley for example), they’ve made it work and had a positive experience.  It varies depending on the person and their circumstance.

I have a very close friend who has a gay son.  He’s chosen to stay active and remain celibate.  It’s been extremely difficult for him, but he’s trying to continue on this path.  My friend (who is active too) supports him but her heart also aches for him being alone (no spouse or family).  He’s not happy much of the time and he’s lonely.  She’s said that she’d support him if he did choose to marry (SSM).  It’s just not cut and dried with only one solution fits all.  That’s why it’s a topic many want to discuss.

Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

Just now, JulieM said:

I didn’t see that being done (by jkwilliams).  He was expressing an honest view.  I agree that for some gay members, staying in the church isn’t healthy or good for them.  For others (kllindley fir example), they’ve made it work and had a positive experience.  It varies depending on the person and their circumstance.

I have a very close friend who has a gay son.  He’s chosen to stay active and remain celibate.  It’s been extremely difficult for him, but he’s trying to continue on this path.  My friend (who is active too) supports him but her heart also aches for him being alone (no spouse or family).  He’s not happy much of the time and he’s lonely.  She’s said that she’d support him if he did choose to marry (SSM).  It’s just not cut and dried with only one solution fits all.  That’s why it’s a topic many want to discuss.

I did not know kllindley was gay. FWIW, I fully support gay members who stay in the church and live a celibate life. It's their choice. I still think that's a difficult life, but I support their choices.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's just a fact that it's difficult. 

"Difficult" is an emotional judgment.  It is not a fact.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

"Difficult" is an emotional judgment.  It is not a fact.

I stand corrected. 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm still wondering who is doing this mind-filling of children. I'm all for not fomenting discord, but I haven't seen it in this thread.

I don’t know that it would be productive to get into a back-and-forth rehash of your exchange with Smac, but I think he has already explained how your “thank goodness” remark came across. 

And on that matter, I don’t see why it must necessarily be viewed as a dreadful thing for a gay person to deal with being a member of the Church. The recent editorial in the Deseret News taking issue with Dan Reynolds’s remarks on the Ellen Degeneris show, mentioned in a recent thread here, cited studies showing that people who observed their religious faith were less, not more, likely to commit suicide. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Analytics]

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nope.  I've done that.  You've done that.

The problem arises when the rhetoric becomes caustic.  Dan Reynolds and the Mama Dragons accusing the LDS Church of causing gay suicides is a good example of this...

Can something be caustic yet still be true? From the link you provided, Jessyca said,

However, I soon came to understand how hard this was really going to be. I hit a sort of crisis about eight months after coming out to myself. Reality finally set in with what my life was most likely going to look like. I just remember feeling so stuck. I felt that I couldn’t take the loneliness of not having someone while living in the gospel, but I also felt that I couldn’t live in a gay relationship because of my testimony and the knowledge God has blessed me with about His sacred plan. I started pondering the possibility of suicide. I remember thinking and feeling that God would be more forgiving and accepting if I had taken my life to get out of sin than if I had lived a life in sin.

Maybe it is unfair to say the LDS Church causes gay suicides, but it seems clear that believing in Mormonism while being gay naturally leads some people to seriously ponder suicide.

Sometimes we address the question of whether the Church is a good influence on people, even if it weren't true. Stories like this one make me think the answer is "it depends on the individual--some people would be much better off without the Church."

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know that it would be productive to get into a back-and-forth rehash of your exchange with Smac, but I think he has already explained how your “thank goodness” remark came across. 

And on that matter, I don’t see why must it necessarily be viewed as a dreadful thing for a gay person to deal with being a member of the Church. The recent editorial in the Deseret News taking issue with Dan Reynolds’s remarks on the Ellen Degeneris show, mentioned in a recent thread here, cited studies showing that people who observed their religious faith were less, not more, likely to commit suicide. 

I didn't say it was dreadful, just said I was glad he doesn't have to deal with any of those issues. I think things would have gone differently had he been a member of the church. 

[kllindley]

27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm still wondering who is doing this mind-filling of children. I'm all for not fomenting discord, but I haven't seen it in this thread.

Dan Reynolds for one. 😉

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did not know kllindley was gay. FWIW, I fully support gay members who stay in the church and live a celibate life. It's their choice. I still think that's a difficult life, but I support their choices.

You know what? It can be a difficult as well for those who don’t have the Church in their lives or who did but chose to abandon it. 

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Can something be caustic yet still be true? From the link you provided, Jessyca said,

However, I soon came to understand how hard this was really going to be. I hit a sort of crisis about eight months after coming out to myself. Reality finally set in with what my life was most likely going to look like. I just remember feeling so stuck. I felt that I couldn’t take the loneliness of not having someone while living in the gospel, but I also felt that I couldn’t live in a gay relationship because of my testimony and the knowledge God has blessed me with about His sacred plan. I started pondering the possibility of suicide. I remember thinking and feeling that God would be more forgiving and accepting if I had taken my life to get out of sin than if I had lived a life in sin.

Maybe it is unfair to say the LDS Church causes gay suicides, but it seems clear that believing in Mormonism while being gay naturally leads some people to seriously ponder suicide.

Sometimes we address the question of whether the Church is a good influence on people, even if it weren't true. Stories like this one make me think the answer is "it depends on the individual--some people would be much better off without the Church."

Did you get to the rest of her story?

Have you read any of the links I've posted?

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I hope I have not burdened anyone with my comments. I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I stand by my belief that it's very difficult to be gay and Mormon. Saying that does not imply that church members hate gay people or don't want them around. It's just a fact that it's difficult. 

 

Think of it this way, you can take the time and care to talk about expectations, choices, consequences without defining for the person what they will mean to them, give them the freedom to build their own worldview...or you can be one more person adding another rock to their pile they get to carry uphill once they start to view their life as a burden since everyone and the dog are telling them what a tough time it will be.

We don't understand the consequences of how we say things, but we can take care to avoid the obvious ones.  Try to imagine if you are told day in and day out how hard something you are struggling with in your life is.  Does that lift your spirit, make it easier to face, to plan for good things to happen, or does it make you feel trapped, make you start to believe you are doomed?

add-on:  hadn't read this comment before I wrote the above...

" I soon came to understand how hard this was really going to be. I hit a sort of crisis about eight months after coming out to myself. Reality finally set in with what my life was most likely going to look like. I just remember feeling so stuck. I felt that I couldn’t take [it]...."

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[Analytics]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know that it would be productive to get into a back-and-forth rehash of your exchange with Smac, but I think he has already explained how your “thank goodness” remark came across. 

And on that matter, I don’t see why must it necessarily be viewed as a dreadful thing for a gay person to deal with being a member of the Church. The recent editorial in the Deseret News taking issue with Dan Reynolds’s remarks on the Ellen Degeneris show, mentioned in a recent thread here, cited studies showing that people who observed their religious faith were less, not more, likely to commit suicide. 

Have they done any studies comparing the suicide rates of gay Mormons vs. gay Unitarian Universalists?

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn't say it was dreadful, just said I was glad he doesn't have to deal with any of those issues. I think things would have gone differently had he been a member of the church. 

Yeah, especially with the family Dynamics you described. The members of the Church do still have a lot of room for improvement.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Dan Reynolds for one. 😉

And the Mama Dragons group for another. 

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did not know kllindley was gay. FWIW, I fully support gay members who stay in the church and live a celibate life. It's their choice. I still think that's a difficult life, but I support their choices.

I agree.  And, you were only speaking of this family member who you have a personal relationship with (if I understood correctly).  You probably know it wouldn’t be healthy for him to be active in the church (at least right now).

It’s not a one size fits all or one solutions for all regarding this topic, for sure.  We all relate personal experiences that vary.

I do think it’s difficult to deal with being gay and also being Mormon.  I’m amazed at how far we’ve come on this and hopefully there will be more progress in the future!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Have they done any studies comparing the suicide rates of gay Mormons vs. gay Unitarian Universalists?

I don’t know. 

[Calm]

Quote

Maybe it is unfair to say the LDS Church causes gay suicides, but it seems clear that believing in Mormonism while being gay naturally leads some people to seriously ponder suicide.

Especially when they are told it is expected they will...

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

 

Think of it this way, you can take the time and care to talk about expectations, choices, consequences without defining for the person what they will mean to them, give them the freedom to build their own worldview...or you can be one more person adding another rock to their pile they get to carry uphill once they start to view their life as a burden since everyone and the dog are telling them what a tough time it will be.

We don't understand the consequences of how we say things, but we can take care to avoid the obvious ones.  Try to imagine if you are told day in and day out how hard something you are struggling with in your life is.  Does that lift your spirit, make it easier to face, to plan for good things to happen, or does it make you feel trapped, make you start to believe you are doomed?

You make a valid point. That was not my intent. I would imagine people who have chosen a celibate life in the LDS church have plenty of encouragement and support, and I would hope they don't feel trapped or doomed.