jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I disagree on this point - constructive criticism is always helpful. I suspect where we might disagree is what we define as constructive criticism. I was thinking of specific people I know who think any criticism of the church is an attack. Fortunately, they are a small minority, but they're out there.
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yep. Here we go again. Critics and opponents of the Church appear to find this sort of think irresistible. As pertaining to the relationship between gays and the LDS Church, I said this a few months back (responding to a question about what the Church should do in this situation, particularly regarding gay suicides): It bears repetition here, I think. There are people who seem bound and determined to foment antagonism between these two groups, to alienate them from each other, usually through endless public declarations about how horrible and toxic the LDS Church is. I find that pretty appalling. -Smac I think it’s a topic that hits close to many (who are active members and who have friends and family who are gay or are gay themsekves). This is a discussion board and people should be able to express their feelings and pain even if they disagree (as long as it’s kept civil I think). Or do you believe only your views should be allowed and all others should remain silent? Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM 1
kllindley Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yep. Here we go again. Critics and opponents of the Church appear to find this sort of think irresistible. As pertaining to the relationship between gays and the LDS Church, I said this a few months back (responding to a question about what the Church should do in this situation, particularly regarding gay suicides): It bears repetition here, I think. There are people who seem bound and determined to foment antagonism between these two groups, to alienate them from each other, usually through endless public declarations about how horrible and toxic the LDS Church is. I find that pretty appalling. -Smac I personally believe that a large majority of the people who end up contributing to this alienation are not aware of how their actions are actually impacting LGBT youth. I believe that for the most part they are acting from a position of sincerity and compassion. It just seems that they are not seeing how their narratives about the situation actually shape their experience. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: I personally believe that a large majority of the people who end up contributing to this alienation are not aware of how their actions are actually impacting LGBT youth. I believe that for the most part they are acting from a position of sincerity and compassion. It just seems that they are not seeing how their narratives about the situation actually shape their experience. So, what's the solution? Should everyone who recognizes that being gay and Mormon is difficult simply shut up?
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, kllindley said: I personally believe that a large majority of the people who end up contributing to this alienation are not aware of how their actions are actually impacting LGBT youth. I believe that for the most part they are acting from a position of sincerity and compassion. It just seems that they are not seeing how their narratives about the situation actually shape their experience. I agree and your perspective is a very applicable and important one on this topic. Thanks. I do believe it’s not just one side who are contributing to the alienation though. What you wrote above could apply to either view or opinion here on this topic. Read your comments again and apply them to the other side. I think that fits too! Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM 1
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think it’s a topic that hits close to many (who are active members and who have friends and family who are gay or are gay themsekves). Yes, I see that. But that doesn't excuse ongoing efforts to foment ill will between these two groups. 2 minutes ago, JulieM said: This is a discussion board and people should be able to express their feelings and pain even if they disagree (as long as it’s kept civil I think). I quite agree. But remarks designed to foment antagonism and ill will between these to groups is not "civil." 2 minutes ago, JulieM said: Or do you believe only your views should be allowed and all others should remain silent? I've been on this board since 2004. I have submitted more than 10,000 posts to it. I invite you to peruse them for statements I have made suggesting that I "believe only [my] views should be allowed and all others should remain silent." Thanks, -Smac 1
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I disagree on this point - constructive criticism is always helpful. I suspect where we might disagree is what we define as constructive criticism. Yep. And also the time, and place, and manner in which that criticism is expressed. Thanks, -Smac 2
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, kllindley said: I personally believe that a large majority of the people who end up contributing to this alienation are not aware of how their actions are actually impacting LGBT youth. I believe that for the most part they are acting from a position of sincerity and compassion. It just seems that they are not seeing how their narratives about the situation actually shape their experience. I'd like to believe that. Perhaps I should give some credence to it. Thanks, -Smac
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes, I see that. But that doesn't excuse ongoing efforts to foment ill will between these two groups. I quite agree. But remarks designed to foment antagonism and ill will between these to groups is not "civil." I've been on this board since 2004. I have submitted more than 10,000 posts to it. I invite you to peruse them for statements I have made suggesting that I "believe only [my] views should be allowed and all others should remain silent." Thanks, -Smac Again, what have I said that is fomenting ill will and antagonism? I simply expressed my opinion that my family member is better off not having to deal with the church in coming out. I didn't tell him to hate the church, or tell any church members to hate him. I just said what I think. 1
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: Again, what have I said that is fomenting ill will and antagonism? I simply expressed my opinion that my family member is better off not having to deal with the church in coming out. I didn't tell him to hate the church, or tell any church members to hate him. I just said what I think. I was speaking generally, not specifically. Thanks, -Smac
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, smac97 said: I was speaking generally, not specifically. Thanks, -Smac Didn't sound like it. "Here we go again" in response to Calm seemed pretty specific. But I'll take your word for it. I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that it's difficult to be gay and Mormon, is it? 2
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes, I see that. But that doesn't excuse ongoing efforts to foment ill will between these two groups. I quite agree. But remarks designed to foment antagonism and ill will between these to groups is not "civil." I see it coming from both sides. It’s an emotional topic and feelings escalate. There’s been some very unkind things written and personal attacks at times. But it’s not a topic that should be taboo when it affects many members. That’s all I was saying. 1
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, jkwilliams said: Didn't sound like it. "Here we go again" in response to Calm seemed pretty specific. But I'll take your word for it. I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that it's difficult to be gay and Mormon, is it? It shouldn’t be. It’s the truth! I doubt anyone can deny this.
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: It shouldn’t be. It’s the truth! I doubt anyone can deny this. I can see how Calm took it as a slam, but it wasn't.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think it’s a topic that hits close to many (who are active members and who have friends and family who are gay or are gay themsekves). This is a discussion board and people should be able to express their feelings and pain even if they disagree (as long as it’s kept civil I think). Or do you believe only your views should be allowed and all others should remain silent? Do you really believe (last sentence above) that’s what Smac is saying?
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: So, what's the solution? Should everyone who recognizes that being gay and Mormon is difficult simply shut up? Nope. I've done that. You've done that. The problem arises when the rhetoric becomes caustic. Dan Reynolds and the Mama Dragons accusing the LDS Church of causing gay suicides is a good example of this. The problem arises when critics put the worst possible spin on the Church's actions, and/or speaking for the Church, and/or putting false words into the mouths of the leaders of the Church (to be honest, your "Not you, Timmy" remarks from last year come across that way, as does Brother Bear's statement that "the [Church's 2015] policy, combined with the redefining of same-sex as apostasy, is the church's way of giving the middle finger to the gay community"). Do we really need to re-hash the rhetoric that has been used against the Church on this issue? Thanks, -SMac 2
kllindley Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: So, what's the solution? Should everyone who recognizes that being gay and Mormon is difficult simply shut up? Not at all. Here after some great answers. http://unthinkable.cc/larger-reflections/ I'm asking that our conversation allow a space for LGBT youth and adults to exercise their agency. Let's admit that it is possible to remain in the Church and not experience it as miserable or hopeless. And yes, I also hope people on the Church would keep open the reality that some LGBT individuals will choose to leave the Church to some extent, and this is not a symptom of faithlessness or weakness. 2
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you really believe (last sentence above) that’s what Smac is saying? I’m saying that both sides can work on being more civil and all views are welcome to be expressed as long as it doesn’t get into personal attacks or insults. This is an important and relevant topic for many members. That’s not going to change and I believe it’s only going to get more so as more youth and others are feeling safer about coming out. Also more members are accepting SSM. It’s a topic that will continue to be discussed. That’s a good thing too, IMO. If some don’t like that, maybe just avoid those topics here? That’s worked for me with some topics. Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Didn't sound like it. "Here we go again" in response to Calm seemed pretty specific. But I'll take your word for it. I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that it's difficult to be gay and Mormon, is it? I see your point. I apologize. I was intending to speak generally. No, I don't think it's controversial to say that "it's difficult to be gay and Mormon." But in all candor, I think we start heading toward incivility when someone, speaking to a board full of Mormons, "thank{s} heavens" that a gay person is not a member of their Church. Thanks, -Smac Edited June 21, 2018 by smac97 3
kllindley Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 21 minutes ago, JulieM said: I agree and your perspective is a very applicable and important one on this topic. Thanks. I do believe it’s not just one side who are contributing to the alienation though. What you wrote above could apply to either view or opinion here on this topic. Read your comments again and apply them to the other side. I think that fits too! 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: I see it coming from both sides. It’s an emotional topic and feelings escalate. There’s been some very unkind things written and personal attacks at times. But it’s not a topic that should be taboo when it affects many members. That’s all I was saying. Yes! It definitely happens on both sides. I'm committing to and think I've shown myself willing to do better at calling it out on both sides. 2
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: Quote Yes, I see that. But that doesn't excuse ongoing efforts to foment ill will between these two groups. I quite agree. But remarks designed to foment antagonism and ill will between these to groups is not "civil." I see it coming from both sides. I think the behaviors being compared here are quite asymmetrical. The LDS Church is moving heaven and earth to present a kind and loving message to gays and lesbians. I invite you to visit https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ and see for yourself. I see much effort and conciliation and kindness on the part of the LDS Church. 11 minutes ago, JulieM said: It’s an emotional topic and feelings escalate. There’s been some very unkind things written and personal attacks at times. But it’s not a topic that should be taboo when it affects many members. That’s all I was saying. I've never suggested that the topic "should be taboo." Thanks, -Smac 1
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, smac97 said: Nope. I've done that. You've done that. The problem arises when the rhetoric becomes caustic. Dan Reynolds and the Mama Dragons accusing the LDS Church of causing gay suicides is a good example of this. The problem arises when critics put the worst possible spin on the Church's actions, and/or speaking for the Church, and/or putting false words into the mouths of the leaders of the Church (to be honest, your "Not you, Timmy" remarks from last year come across that way, as does Brother Bear's statement that "the [Church's 2015] policy, combined with the redefining of same-sex as apostasy, is the church's way of giving the middle finger to the gay community"). Do we really need to re-hash the rhetoric that has been used against the Church on this issue? Thanks, -SMac I’m not going to rehash my argument from last year. It’s simply a fact that some kids will attend church regularly and not be allowed to be baptized. I’m sorry for “not you, Timmy,” which I ironically said when you accused me of having nothing but emotion behind my disagreement. As for being thankful, I have said I meant I am thankful my family member doesn’t have to deal with the issues he would have were he in the church. I don’t celebrate anyone leaving the church. I have tried to be civil, and I apologize for apparently failing.
smac97 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, jkwilliams said: I’m not going to rehash my argument from last year. It’s simply a fact that some kids will attend church regularly and not be allowed to be baptized. I’m sorry for “not you, Timmy,” which I ironically said when you accused me of having nothing but emotion behind my disagreement. Okay. Just now, jkwilliams said: As for being thankful, I have said I meant I am thankful my family member doesn’t have to deal with the issues he would have were he in the church. I don’t celebrate anyone leaving the church. I have tried to be civil, and I apologize for apparently failing. I too mess up in this regard. I too apologize. I will try to do better. Thanks, -Smac
kllindley Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I can see how Calm took it as a slam, but it wasn't. I can't speak for her, but I didn't think she took it as a slam against the Church. I read her comment as a concern, which I share, about the influence of the narrative that there isn't a place in the Church for LGBT. It's that narrative that bothers me. Do you realize the pain and impact of being told, not by your Church, but by others that you can't belong or be happy if you hold onto your fundamental beliefs and personal testimony about God, family, and the meaning of life? 2
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: I can't speak for her, but I didn't think she took it as a slam against the Church. I read her comment as a concern, which I share, about the influence of the narrative that there isn't a place in the Church for LGBT. It's that narrative that bothers me. Do you realize the pain and impact of being told, not by your Church, but by others that you can't belong or be happy if you hold onto your fundamental beliefs and personal testimony about God, family, and the meaning of life? Have I said that? What I have said is that there is no place in LDS theology for same-sex relationships; and that a gay member must live a life of celibacy, which is an awful burden. Can some people be happy doing that? I'm sure there are people out there who can. But whatever I say isn't going to make it any easier or more difficult to be gay and Mormon. 1
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