Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

[Daniel2]

The values I learned from Mormonism were the driving factor in my own suicidal thoughts and feelings during my twenties. 

Many gay LDS me I know report the same thing. 

An LDS man I knew and dated committed suicide because, as he told me in his final months, he knew he would never change and he’d rather end his life that continue sinning even more and end up even worse off in the eternities due to sexual sin.

So many of us have shared our stories about suicide due to Mormonism.

While suicidal thoughts or drives aren’t experienced by all gay Latter-day Saints (and that’s great for those it hasn’t), I do not understand why the experiences of those of us who have struggled with suicide due to religious beliefs are so vigorously rejected and denied.  Our realities may cause discomfort, but that doesn’t negate the validity of our shared experiences.

Mormons often urge non-Mormons to seek out actual Latter-day Saints when wanting to learn accurate truths about Mormonism instead of “anti-Mormon” sources. Why won’t Mormons believe and accept the accounts given by gay men and women about our experiences with religiously-induced suicidal thought and self-destructive behaviors...?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Daniel2

[kllindley]

7 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

The values I learned from Mormonism were the driving factor in my own suicidal thoughts and feelings during my twenties. 

Many gay LDS me I know report the same thing. 

An LDS man I knew and dated committed suicide because, as he told me in his final months, he knew he would never change and he’d rather end his life that continue sinning even more and end up even worse off in the eternities due to sexual sin.

So many of us have shared our stories about suicide due to Mormonism.

While suicidal thoughts or drives aren’t experienced by all gay Latter-day Saints (and that’s great for those it hasn’t), I do not understand why the experiences of those of us who have struggled with suicide due to religious beliefs are so vigorously rejected and denied.  Our realities may cause discomfort, but that doesn’t negate the validity of our shared experiences.

Mormons often urge non-Mormons to seek out actual Latter-day Saints when wanting to learn accurate truths about Mormonism instead of “anti-Mormon” sources. Why won’t Mormons believe and accept the accounts given by gay men and women about our experiences with religiously-induced suicidal thought and self-destructive behaviors...?

Do you believe that people on this board are rejecting or denying your experiences? I haven't seen that. 

It seems that you want to claim that your experiences with suicide outweigh the scientific consensus that suicide does not have a single cause. 

[Daniel2]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

Do you believe that people on this board are rejecting or denying your experiences? I haven't seen that. 

It seems that you want to claim that your experiences with suicide outweigh the scientific consensus that suicide does not have a single cause. 

I didn’t say, nor do I believe, that there’s a single cause, and I fully support the medical consensus as such. 

And yes, people on this board regularly rebuff the experiences that I and others share in attributing the driving force to Mormonism, suggesting that it’s actually our sexual orientation that’s the cause. Your previous post of the article criticizing the Mamma Dragons’ approach echoes that same sentiment.  

[Calm]

9 hours ago, gopher said:

Removing all the snark from my previous posts, my comments reflect my great disappointment and sadness when any LDS couple divorce when they have small children, no matter the reason.  In Reynolds case, it also affects my interest in seeing his documentary where he and his wife are portrayed as a devoted couple.  I'm not encouraging anyone to condemn either of them because of their divorce.  It's my opinion they would be a stronger voice for change if there weren't getting divorced.

And gossiping is actually good thing

Interesting article.  Not too surprised that gossiping leads to bonding...for those doing the gossiping,  I would like to see what benefits accrue to the ones being gossiped about though.  

I am all for positive gossip, btw.  It is the negative digging into private lives stuff that bothers me.

I do get the disinclination, taking marriage counseling from someone who had been divorced multiple times doesn't make much sense (as an example) or dieting advice from someone who is very overweight (though of course, overweight issues can be tied into other health issues like sleep dysfunctions...a very vicious circle).  Advice from those successful in their endeavors does.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I didn’t say, nor do I believe, that there’s a single cause, and I fully support the medical consensus as such.

It may be unintentional, but comments like this are read by me as implying one cause though:

Quote

An LDS man I knew and dated committed suicide because, as he told me in his final months, he knew he would never change and he’d rather end his life that continue sinning even more and end up even worse off in the eternities due to sexual sin.

 

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

An LDS man I knew and dated committed suicide because, as he told me in his final months, he knew he would never change and he’d rather end his life that continue sinning even more and end up even worse off in the eternities due to sexual sin.

That is too bad.  Killing oneself in this way is a great sin itself when it is done with rational intent and forethought.   I think it is one of the great tragedies of suicide.  People think it solves a problem but they get to the other side and find out it solved nothing.  They still have the same issues they deal with there as here except they don't have a body. 

[JulieM]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

It may be unintentional, but comments like this are read by me as implying one cause though:

 

I think it’s the cause (or primary factor) in some suicides.  We just have to be careful not to claim that it’s the cause of all youth suicides, IMO.

Edited June 16, 2018 by JulieM

[changed]

15 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

That is too bad.  Killing oneself in this way is a great sin....

 

Perhaps it is also a sin to test someone beyond what they are able to endure.... 

To me, suicide is proof that people are tested beyond their limits, and whose sin does that one fall on?  Sins of omission are involved - of not supporting one another, of G-d not being there for people - victim shaming?  the victim sinned?  I suppose it is easier to blame the victim than to blame others for pushing them to these extremes.  

Edited June 16, 2018 by changed

[Scott Lloyd]

49 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Perhaps it is also a sin to test someone beyond what they are able to endure.... 

To me, suicide is proof that people are tested beyond their limits, and whose sin does that one fall on?  Sins of omission are involved - of not supporting one another, of G-d not being there for people - victim shaming?  the victim sinned?  I suppose it is easier to blame the victim than to blame others for pushing them to these extremes.  

Please be very judicious in that. There are suicides where “victim shaming” was not a factor. Suicide not only destroys the life of the victim, it can devastate those around him or her. Stating or suggesting unjustly that the person was “driven to it” can easily make a horrific situation yet worse. 

[changed]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Please be very judicious in that. There are suicides where “victim shaming” was not a factor. Suicide not only destroys the life of the victim, it can devastate those around him or her. Stating or suggesting unjustly that the person was “driven to it” can easily make a horrific situation yet worse. 

 

What is making the situation worse?

Not acknowledging what caused someone to kill themselves, thus leading to more and more deaths?

or - seeing the painful truth, changing how everyone behaves and acts, then better supporting everyone - and perhaps saving a few lives in the future?

The situation is horrific.  Not acknowledging what created the culture and situation that many LGBT are faced with is making the horrific situation yet worse.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, changed said:

 

What is making the situation worse?

Not acknowledging what caused someone to kill themselves, thus leading to more and more deaths?

or - seeing the painful truth, changing how everyone behaves and acts, then better supporting everyone - and perhaps saving a few lives in the future?

The situation is horrific.  Not acknowledging what created the culture and situation that many LGBT are faced with is making the horrific situation yet worse.  

Ignorantly and reflexively assigning blame where one is not in a position to know does no good and potentially destroys yet more lives. 

[changed]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ignorantly and reflexively assigning blame where one is not in a position to know does no good and potentially destroys yet more lives. 

Not supporting one another destroys lives.  Being a pharisee destroys lives.  

[changed]

I had a good friend who died - not of suicide, but from Aids.  I spent the whole day with him the day before he died.  One of those strange things, I had no idea it was to be our last day together - he was happy, joking... strangely we did have a religious conversation, he was always wanting to know everyone's spiritual journey.... 

He had several funerals, which were all well attended.  He was a musician, so the music was amazing - and the testimonies everyone shared of his life was amazing.  People stood up and said this gay man saved their life, that he talked them out of killing themselves.  

The best saints are sinners - at least that has been my experience.  Shunning, and denying them and their children .... it is not good.  

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

Not supporting one another destroys lives.  Being a pharisee destroys lives.  

So does unrighteousness judgment. Do you want to be responsible for the unjust infliction of pain upon someone who is already suffering horifically?  

Here is an insightful article on this matter:

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/05/07/if-only/

[changed]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So does unrighteousness judgment. Do you want to be responsible for the unjust infliction of pain upon someone who is already suffering horifically?  

Here is an insightful article on this matter:

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/05/07/if-only/

Yes.  I lost a cousin from suicide.  I agree with the article's statement that " it is never one person’s fault"...  we are all connected to one another, it is a community - a culture - not a single person.  Progression - eternal progression - or earthly progression - requires admitting faults, however painful, and changing.  

Telling someone a lie - telling them "you are perfect, and there is nothing you could have done to help" is a lie, and everyone knows it.  

I think a more healthy message is "no one is perfect, including me, we all made mistakes - but we can become better - we can change the culture - we can change society - we can use this as a learning opportunity to change ourselves, and be more supportive of one another."

Hope for a better future, making weak things strong - that is the honest approach.  

Denying - when everyone knows the truth - that is hurtful, leads to isolation, people staying in the same spot, withdrawing, not dealing with the issues - this is not helpful.  

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

Yes.  I lost a cousin from suicide.  I agree with the article's statement that " it is never one person’s fault"...  we are all connected to one another, it is a community - a culture - not a single person.  Progression - eternal progression - or earthly progression - requires admitting faults, however painful, and changing.  

Telling someone a lie - telling them "you are perfect, and there is nothing you could have done to help" is a lie, and everyone knows it.  

I think a more healthy message is "no one is perfect, including me, we all made mistakes - but we can become better - we can change the culture - we can change society - we can use this as a learning opportunity to change ourselves, and be more supportive of one another."

Hope for a better future, making weak things strong - that is the honest approach.  

Denying - when everyone knows the truth - that is hurtful, leads to isolation, people staying in the same spot, withdrawing, not dealing with the issues - this is not helpful.  

But everyone might not know the truth. Those who think they do may be rather clueless, in fact. That’s when forbearance is the better part of valor. 

Inflicting injury on those already suffering because one thinks they inflicted injury on a loved one who killed himself. It’s a vicious cycle. The madness has to stop. 

[changed]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But everyone might not know the truth. Those who think they do may be rather clueless, in fact. That’s when forbearance is the better part of valor. 

Inflicting injury on those already suffering because one thinks they inflicted injury on a loved one who killed himself. It’s a vicious cycle. The madness has to stop. 

 

I have found no one ever knows the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  If anyone is going to understand anything, open communication, not silence, not holding back, is the only way to move forward.  Silence kills.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

I have found no one ever knows the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  If anyone is going to understand anything, open communication, not silence, not holding back, is the only way to move forward.  Silence kills.  

Forbearance is not the same thing as silence. 

Forebearance is related to humility. And wisdom. And decency. And civility. And an honest realization that one might not be in full possession of the facts.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[kllindley]

On 6/14/2018 at 2:13 PM, kllindley said:

I have to agree. In regards to his decisions to further exacerbate the distress and turmoil of LGBT youth and adults in Utah and throughout the Church, I am about as critical of Dan Reynolds as possible. I have a very low opinion of his moral character and seriously question his sincerity in this advocacy.  Based on the way he has gone about it, I find it much more likely that he is in fact trying to use the LGBT issue to boost his personal reputation and popularity, rather than using his position to actually help the LGBT community. His words and actions have loudly and clearly signaled to me that he is not an ally and that he views me as an enemy. 

And yet, I can't see any need to attack his personal life. I think there is more than enough to criticize in his work and public statements. Attacking the irrelevant personal details distracts attention away from the real damage he is doing. 

And I think this falls squarely in the professional/public arena:

Imagine Dragons’ Dan Reynolds Goes Shirtless, Shows Off Hot Body on Tour!

I am so glad this is happening prior to the premiere of his documentary on HBO. It helps clarify where he is coming from. 

Through behavior like this and the fact that he relies on John Dehlin in the documentary as the professional expert on the Mormon LGBT experience, Reynolds cleaely establishes his position. He is not a concerned member working to bring about meaningful change.  He's coming at this like an outsider determined to damage the Church and draw away as many as he can. 

I seriously can't believe he would he so stupid as to think that this approach would have a positive impact on the Church leadership and the general membership. Unless, of course, alienating these potential allies was his goal, in which case he succeeded brilliantly. 

[kllindley]

On 6/15/2018 at 3:09 PM, Daniel2 said:

I didn’t say, nor do I believe, that there’s a single cause, and I fully support the medical consensus as such. 

 

Could you explain how you see "single cause" as so different from "driving force?" That seems like a distinction without a difference. Wouldn't you day that from your narrative, "Mormonism" is the factor without which, you and all the others would never have been suicidal? How is that not falling into the trap of attributing suicidality to a cause which could lead vulnerable individuals to see their own experiences as part of an inevitable shared story?

On 6/15/2018 at 3:09 PM, Daniel2 said:

And yes, people on this board regularly rebuff the experiences that I and others share in attributing the driving force to Mormonism, suggesting that it’s actually our sexual orientation that’s the cause.

I completely disagree that sexual orientation is ever a cause for suicide.  That's every bit as reckless and untrue as blaming Mormonism. 

The point though is that while your shared experiences are certainly valid and meaningful to you, it is impossible to separate those experiences from the narrative through which you choose to interpret and communicate those experiences. It isn't that I disbelieve your experience. It's that I don't automatically accept the interpretation or narrative you've placed on them. Especially when that narrative is not acknowledged, but rather claimed as fact. 

On 6/15/2018 at 3:09 PM, Daniel2 said:

Your previous post of the article criticizing the Mamma Dragons’ approach echoes that same sentiment.

If you mean the article  itself, then either you didn't read it, didn't understand it, or believe Jacob is lying. 

If you mean the impact of the portion I chose to quote in my post, I apologize.  

On 6/15/2018 at 12:54 PM, Daniel2 said:

Mormons often urge non-Mormons to seek out actual Latter-day Saints when wanting to learn accurate truths about Mormonism instead of “anti-Mormon” sources. Why won’t Mormons believe and accept the accounts given by gay men and women about our experiences with religiously-induced suicidal thought and self-destructive behaviors...?

This is a very interesting comment. I have a hard time believing that you actually see these two examples as equivalent. Does hearing a Mormon share their belief in the Restoration, or their testimony of the Book of Mormon, or their experience of feeling the Holy Ghost confirm the Divinity of the Family Proclamation lead you to "believe and accept" the truth of those things? Or do you accept that these may be our sincere, but mistaken interpretations of our spiritual experiences? Do you think that any Mormon here expects you to believe God spoke to us just because we claim it?

But if I say that I respect a gay person's experience of suicidality and accept that he genuinely believes that Mormonism is the "driving force," while simultaneously believing that reality is more complex than this explanation, I'm being unfair and rebuffing? 

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:39 AM, kllindley said:

And I think this falls squarely in the professional/public arena:

Imagine Dragons’ Dan Reynolds Goes Shirtless, Shows Off Hot Body on Tour!

I am so glad this is happening prior to the premiere of his documentary on HBO. It helps clarify where he is coming from. 

Through behavior like this and the fact that he relies on John Dehlin in the documentary as the professional expert on the Mormon LGBT experience, Reynolds cleaely establishes his position. He is not a concerned member working to bring about meaningful change.  He's coming at this like an outsider determined to damage the Church and draw away as many as he can. 

I seriously can't believe he would he so stupid as to think that this approach would have a positive impact on the Church leadership and the general membership. Unless, of course, alienating these potential allies was his goal, in which case he succeeded brilliantly. 

Dan Reynolds goes shirtless? Oh my. But is he sporting a loin cloth like Donny?  

[Tacenda]

On 6/16/2018 at 11:39 PM, kllindley said:

And I think this falls squarely in the professional/public arena:

Imagine Dragons’ Dan Reynolds Goes Shirtless, Shows Off Hot Body on Tour!

I am so glad this is happening prior to the premiere of his documentary on HBO. It helps clarify where he is coming from. 

Through behavior like this and the fact that he relies on John Dehlin in the documentary as the professional expert on the Mormon LGBT experience, Reynolds cleaely establishes his position. He is not a concerned member working to bring about meaningful change.  He's coming at this like an outsider determined to damage the Church and draw away as many as he can. 

I seriously can't believe he would he so stupid as to think that this approach would have a positive impact on the Church leadership and the general membership. Unless, of course, alienating these potential allies was his goal, in which case he succeeded brilliantly. 

http://fox13now.com/2018/06/17/3-questions-with-bob-evans-dan-reynolds-on-the-intersection-of-lds-and-lgbtq-at-loveloud/ This was on last night, I think it will clear up any misconceptions.

[kllindley]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://fox13now.com/2018/06/17/3-questions-with-bob-evans-dan-reynolds-on-the-intersection-of-lds-and-lgbtq-at-loveloud/ This was on last night, I think it will clear up any misconceptions.

Thank you for sharing this. It does clear up a few things: 

1. The only negative response he cited was that some people told him his efforts will make more youth gay. I haven't seen that criticism discussed publicly. It seems that he wants to paint any opposition as radical and fanatic. 

2. I wonder what it says about his approach that "things are getting worse" since LoveLoud 2017. Has the Church been more hateful or discriminatory in the last 12 months? What other factors could explain the fact that nothing is better for LGBT youth in Utah following something as "successful" as last year's festival?

3. Reynolds continues to misrepresent both LDS doctrine and scientific concensus on sexuality and identity. Whether this is deliberate or just  demonstrates a continued effort to remain ignorant is still unclear. 

[clarkgoble]

On 6/16/2018 at 11:39 PM, kllindley said:

And I think this falls squarely in the professional/public arena:

Imagine Dragons’ Dan Reynolds Goes Shirtless, Shows Off Hot Body on Tour!

I am so glad this is happening prior to the premiere of his documentary on HBO. It helps clarify where he is coming from. 

Through behavior like this and the fact that he relies on John Dehlin in the documentary as the professional expert on the Mormon LGBT experience, Reynolds cleaely establishes his position. He is not a concerned member working to bring about meaningful change.  He's coming at this like an outsider determined to damage the Church and draw away as many as he can. 

I seriously can't believe he would he so stupid as to think that this approach would have a positive impact on the Church leadership and the general membership. Unless, of course, alienating these potential allies was his goal, in which case he succeeded brilliantly. 

I think Reynolds himself has admitted to conflicting feelings and appears to have testimony issues. However going shirtless in a show says nothing about that. I'd note that polynesian dancers usually go shirtless too at BYU. I don't think anyone thinks those performances are problematic. (Well OK there are some - but they're also railing at the Cougarettes for not wearing garments during their routines too)

Edited June 18, 2018 by clarkgoble

[ALarson]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://fox13now.com/2018/06/17/3-questions-with-bob-evans-dan-reynolds-on-the-intersection-of-lds-and-lgbtq-at-loveloud/ This was on last night, I think it will clear up any misconceptions.

Thanks for posting this.  I enjoyed listening to what he actually has to say in response to some of the questions many are asking.  I can't say I agree with all of his opinions, but I respect his right to be doing what he believes in.  I hope there can be some positive changes made and he certainly is drawing attention to some issues that are on the minds of a lot of people and members.