Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

[kllindley]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did not know kllindley was gay. FWIW, I fully support gay members who stay in the church and live a celibate life. It's their choice. I still think that's a difficult life, but I support their choices.

Thank you. I really hope it's clear and you can believe that this isn't some atatck on you. 

Just to clarify, I would say that I was gay. I am now closer to bisexual. That's why I usually use LGBT. And I'm very happily married. Something I did not always believe was possible. 

From my perspective, I think it mildly misrepresents the Church doctrine to say that celibacy is expected. I know that's nuanced and so I don't usually make a big deal of it, but it is part of the narrative issue I'm talking about. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yeah, especially with the family Dynamics you described. The members of the Church do still have a lot of room for improvement.

I honestly don't know why my parents have such, well, overt hatred for gay men and women. I love my parents, but there must be something behind it that I don't know about, because they go out of their way to express contempt for gays. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn't say it was dreadful, just said I was glad he doesn't have to deal with any of those issues. I think things would have gone differently had he been a member of the church. 

 

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yeah, especially with the family Dynamics you described. The members of the Church do still have a lot of room for improvement.

Suppose he had been a member of the Church and the family dynamics had been better. 

I don’t deny that members of the Church have room for improvement, but I don’t know that the Church is to blame for their individual deficiencies. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, kllindley said:

Thank you. I really hope it's clear and you can believe that this isn't some atatck on you. 

Just to clarify, I would say that I was gay. I am now closer to bisexual. That's why I usually use LGBT. And I'm very happily married. Something I did not always believe was possible. 

From my perspective, I think it mildly misrepresents the Church doctrine to say that celibacy is expected. I know that's nuanced and so I don't usually make a big deal of it, but it is part of the narrative issue I'm talking about. 

That's excellent. I don't know what a nuanced approach to the Law of Chastity would look like, so I'll take your word for it. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Suppose he had been a member of the Church and the family dynamics had been better. 

I don’t deny that members of the Church have room for improvement, but I don’t know that the Church is to blame for their individual deficiencies. 

He's going to have to deal with the family dynamics, anyway. My point is that he hasn't been taught certain things about himself that would cause a lot of anguish for someone who is gay. I know, that's another value judgment.

[Analytics]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Did you get to the rest of her story?

Have you read any of the links I've posted?

I read her whole story, although I would add that it isn't over. Maybe in 5 years she'll be on the Ellen show.

In any case I endorse her message of love, and I applaud the Church for publishing it. I wish Jessyca nothing but the best on her journey.

I probably haven't read your links.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

So, what's the solution? Should everyone who recognizes that being gay and Mormon is difficult simply shut up? 

Talk about specifics without adding value judgments.

I just had a discussion with a woman who is likely to never have children because she believes it would be wrong for her for reasons some won't understand.  She is wondering if she has a place in the Church.  I pointed her to many articles on LDS.org that discuss this as well as the Handbook statement that it is a decision to be made by the couple with God.  I then discussed lots of specifics and how she could increase her control over them, including having a planned response for those members who don't understand the violation of privacy that asking someone what their plans for children are.  What I didn't do (I hope, it is easy to miss subtle pushing) is tell her how she should view her experiences, how she should feel.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Thank you. I really hope it's clear and you can believe that this isn't some atatck on you. 

Just to clarify, I would say that I was gay. I am now closer to bisexual. That's why I usually use LGBT. And I'm very happily married. Something I did not always believe was possible. 

From my perspective, I think it mildly misrepresents the Church doctrine to say that celibacy is expected. I know that's nuanced and so I don't usually make a big deal of it, but it is part of the narrative issue I'm talking about. 

I’ve been attacked on this board for supporting use of the term same-sex attraction, but the above is why I think it’s a useful term. It can apply to individuals who are at most any point along the spectrum, whereas “gay” is ordinarily taken to mean the extreme point. People such as kllindley illustrate that it is possible  for one with same-sex attraction to find happiness in a heterosexual marriage. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I honestly don't know why my parents have such, well, overt hatred for gay men and women. I love my parents, but there must be something behind it that I don't know about, because they go out of their way to express contempt for gays. 

Possibly because they have been told over and over gays are trying to force their agenda on them (I have been hearing it since high school from nonLDS and LDS, which means 40 some years, grew up in SF area where gays had some political and social power and were understandable to me at least working for more) or that gays hate them for their beliefs (been hearing this as long too).  They start feeling trapped, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's excellent. I don't know what a nuanced approach to the Law of Chastity would look like, so I'll take your word for it. 

Characterizing his point as “a nuanced approach to the law of chastity” distorts his words, I believe. 

[JulieM]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I honestly don't know why my parents have such, well, overt hatred for gay men and women. I love my parents, but there must be something behind it that I don't know about, because they go out of their way to express contempt for gays. 

I still see lots of hatred (a lot is generational I think as I don’t see much in the youth today).  Are they active in the church?  How do they justify their hatred with the teachings of Christ?

Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

Talk about specifics without adding value judgments.

I just had a discussion with a woman who is likely to never have children because she believes it would be wrong for her for reasons some won't understand.  She is wondering if she has a place in the Church.  I pointed her to many articles on LDS.org that discuss this as well as the Handbook statement that it is a decision to be made by the couple with God.  I then discussed lots of specifics and how she could increase her control over them, including having a planned response for those members who don't understand the violation of privacy that asking someone what their plans for children are.  What I didn't do (I hope, it is easy to miss subtle pushing) is tell her how she should view her experiences, how she should feel.

The specifics will be different in every case. I do think people contemplating a celibate LDS life need to think very carefully about it and how they are going to accomplish it. I'm sure there will be supportive people like you to encourage them. In the case of my family member, when he talked to me, I simply asked him what he planned to do for the future. He said he was going to finish college and hopefully settle down with a good career and a husband. I also talked to him about what he would say to my parents. He said they are at the end of their lives, and there was little point in causing them distress. We talked about what might happen if they found out. He said he thought they would still love him, but he figured they would treat him differently. He just said he'd keep loving them the same.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

He's going to have to deal with the family dynamics, anyway. My point is that he hasn't been taught certain things about himself that would cause a lot of anguish for someone who is gay. I know, that's another value judgment.

As long as we’re expressing value judgments, I will point out that being taught certain things about oneself, i.e. his identity as a child of God with eternal and divine potential, could conceivably help a young man better deal with issues of same-sex attraction. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I do think people contemplating a celibate LDS life need to think very carefully about it and how they are going to accomplish it. I'm sure there will be supportive people like you to encourage them. In the case of my family member, when he talked to me, I simply asked him what he planned to do for the future. He said he was going to finish college and hopefully settle down with a good career and a husband. I also talked to him about what he would say to my parents. He said they are at the end of their lives, and there was little point in causing them distress. We talked about what might happen if they found out. He said he thought they would still love him, but he figured they would treat him differently. He just said he'd keep loving them the same.

Sounds good to me.

Quote

The specifics will be different in every case.

Which means to really listen is going to take time and effort.  Some people don't have that, but want to be supportive, so they act with sympathy rather than empathy and end up one sizing the individual with their intended to be supportive, but likely burdensome remarks that often contribute to feelings of being a victim.  Better to focus on the realistic positive if one doesn't  have the time or inclination to do what you apparently did, which was ask questions and let him lead the conversation.

(I was reading backwards to catch up, won't have time to get it all so may miss responses to me, sorry)

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As long as we’re expressing value judgments, I will point out that being taught certain things about oneself, i.e. his identity as a child of God with eternal and divine potential, could conceivably help a young man better deal with issues of same-sex attraction. 

Of course it could. My point was that, for my family member, it wasn't an "issue," just a part of him he wanted to talk about. If anything, he worried that it would be an issue for the rest of us in the family. It's only an issue if you make it one.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Of course it could. My point was that, for my family member, it wasn't an "issue," just a part of him he wanted to talk about. If anything, he worried that it would be an issue for the rest of us in the family. It's only an issue if you make it one.

His worry about how it would affect the rest of the family is, by definition, an issue. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

His worry about how it would affect the rest of the family is, by definition, an issue. 

True enough, but the church's teachings about divine potential would not have influenced that particular issue. He was going to have to deal with my parents either way.

[changed]

16 hours ago, Rain said:

Having been at the point of suicide twice (once within hours with a plan and once within minutes) and having various suicidal thoughts flash through my head on occasion I can't tell you how much this bothers me.  In fact it angers me. The third thing that came to mind the second time around was how devastated my husband would be. I canot begin to tell you how much blame he would put on himself, let alone what others would have done yet he was a huge support and did everything he could. 

There is no one in my life either time that I felt was a lack of support. This was something INSIDE of me that had to be dealt with. 

Talking about the "blame" helps no one. Blame has an assumption of guilt tied to it. Now if you want to talk about cause and effect then I'll go with it, but having gone through what I did, the minute you start looking at only one cause or one main cause you are going to miss the complicated network that created the problem and if we are focused on "blame" we will get nowhere. 

 

You are still alive because someone cared.  Your husband loved you, and you knew it, so you are still alive.  .. others are not so lucky or supported.

Blame is part of problem solving - without identifying, and changing the problems, nothing is fixed.  People make mistakes, people are not as loving as they should be, not as supportive as they should be.  It is ok not to put all the blame on yourself - sure, blame yourself for some of it, but there is blame for others too -  it is healthy to acknowledge that no one is perfect, that everyone makes mistakes.  The point of all of it is to change.  To identify the problems that exist, and change.

Edited June 21, 2018 by changed

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Possibly because they have been told over and over gays are trying to force their agenda on them (I have been hearing it since high school from nonLDS and LDS, which means 40 some years, grew up in SF area where gays had some political and social power and were understandable to me at least working for more) or that gays hate them for their beliefs (been hearing this as long too).  They start feeling trapped, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.

I think the fear of a forced agenda is not altogether unwarranted. Witness the Masterpiece Cake Shop case. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, changed said:

 

You are still alive because someone cared.  Your husband loved you, and you knew it, so you are still alive.  .. others are not so lucky or supported.

Blame is part of problem solving - without identifying, and changing the problems, nothing is fixed.  People make mistakes, people are not as loving as they should be, not as supportive as they should be.  It is ok not to put all the blame on yourself -  it is healthy to acknowledge that no one is perfect, that everyone makes mistakes.  The point of all of it is to change.  To identify the problems that exist, and change.

I'm alive because, in the moment before it was too late, I stopped myself. No one knew I was suicidal, and had I succeeded, it wouldn't have been anyone's fault for not supporting or loving me. I don't find it helpful at all to blame others for my choices.

[jkwilliams]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Possibly because they have been told over and over gays are trying to force their agenda on them (I have been hearing it since high school from nonLDS and LDS, which means 40 some years, grew up in SF area where gays had some political and social power and were understandable to me at least working for more) or that gays hate them for their beliefs (been hearing this as long too).  They start feeling trapped, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.

It's been as long as I can remember, since early childhood in the late 60s. Anyone who was gay was worthy of contempt and derision. It makes me sad.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the fear of a forced agenda is not altogether unwarranted. Witness the Masterpiece Cake Shop case. 

Rather than talking about it as "force", one can choose to see it as various social communities trying to find their niche in society, sometimes with useful ways and other times not.

[Analytics]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the fear of a forced agenda is not altogether unwarranted. Witness the Masterpiece Cake Shop case. 

Or even worse, their opposition to Proposition 8. The nerve of them, forcing that agenda on you.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Rather than talking about it as "force", one can choose to see it as various social communities trying to find their niche in society, sometimes with useful ways and other times not.

Attempted force being one of the less-useful ways. Force is what it is, justifiable or not. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Rather than talking about it as "force", one can choose to see it as various social communities trying to find their niche in society, sometimes with useful ways and other times not.

This. I'm reminded of how gay pride parades are often way over the top. The point isn't to scandalize; it's simply people who were forced into the shadows their whole lives having an opportunity to say, "We're not afraid anymore."