rodheadlee Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 22 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: If one were to experiment on the word and judge the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints based on the fruits it bears as evidenced on this message board, what results do you feel that experiment would yield? Would the fruit seem good, evil, or tasteless? Put another way, if at least a portion of the value of the gospel message is determined by the lives of the people it produces, as measured in faith, hope, charity, and love, is the gospel fruit good? The fruit of this board taste wonderful. Many people here were instrumental in my wife winning her first battle with cancer., saving her life. 4
Tacenda Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: The fruit of this board taste wonderful. Many people here were instrumental in my wife winning her first battle with cancer., saving her life. How's that, or don't answer if you'd rather not. Just think that is one heck of a good fruit!
Kenngo1969 Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: The fruit of this board taste wonderful. Many people here were instrumental in my wife winning her first battle with cancer., saving her life. Given the limitations of this forum and of this mode of communication, within those limitations, in whatever way I can, I will always be there for you and for those you love (such as prayers, fasting, good thoughts), Brother Rod. I wish you and yours well. -Ken Edited October 28, 2017 by Kenngo1969 2
The Nehor Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: You can't judge Mormons or ex/non-Mormons by what goes on on this board, so I think the premise to the question is false. As has been pointed out, a board creates problems unique to its situation (and also attracts a certain type of person) so it's not generalizable. As a group, from my experience, Mormons are usually looked at by others as good solid people who have wacky beliefs. In my personal experience, that tends to be true, too (sorry about the wacky beliefs part -- I'm sure some of you think some Catholic beliefs and practices are rather weird, too ) I also think that any group of people actively practicing their religion tend to be good, solid people, too. In other words, the fruit of the Mormon church (the lives of active members) seems to me to be about the same as the fruit of other Christian churches (the lives of their active members). The active Catholics in my parish are extraordinarily wonderful and giving people, but I know there are some harsh Catholic forums out there, too. If sounding wacky is righteousness then sanity is overrated and that is my best hope for salvation so got to stick with it.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 7 hours ago, Tacenda said: How's that, or don't answer if you'd rather not. Just think that is one heck of a good fruit! Prayer, subject to the will of God, works. Just sayin'!
JAHS Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 If we judge by the fruits of the people on this board I would say it is quite the mixed fruit salad Some reliable crisp red apples Some sour grapes Some rotten bananas A few nuts. Are they a fruit? Tomatos. Try to fit in as a fruit but can't be accepted as such Nectarines - Sweet and delicious on the inside, but hard as a rock on the outside. Pineapples - Looks intimidating and dangerous, but is actually really sweet. Pumpkins - Makes a big impression but pretty much empty on the inside Which fruit are you? 4
Tacenda Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 58 minutes ago, JAHS said: If we judge by the fruits of the people on this board I would say it is quite the mixed fruit salad Some reliable crisp red apples Some sour grapes Some rotten bananas A few nuts. Are they a fruit? Tomatos. Try to fit in as a fruit but can't be accepted as such Nectarines - Sweet and delicious on the inside, but hard as a rock on the outside. Pineapples - Looks intimidating and dangerous, but is actually really sweet. Pumpkins - Makes a big impression but pretty much empty on the inside Which fruit are you? All of the above!
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 12:59 PM, HappyJackWagon said: Ok- If the only evidence of the fruit is found on this board, you think it is absolutely good? I just want to make sure I understood. No, what you really want is for people to agree with your assessment of me. The judgment you've got your britches in a bunch about has been made after years interacting with that poster and of watching him interact with others on the board. I know that, to quote M*A*S*H's Radar O'Reilly, gives you hyperacididity. Try this. You're welcome. Hope it helps.
Jeanne Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 11 hours ago, JAHS said: If we judge by the fruits of the people on this board I would say it is quite the mixed fruit salad Some reliable crisp red apples Some sour grapes Some rotten bananas A few nuts. Are they a fruit? Tomatos. Try to fit in as a fruit but can't be accepted as such Nectarines - Sweet and delicious on the inside, but hard as a rock on the outside. Pineapples - Looks intimidating and dangerous, but is actually really sweet. Pumpkins - Makes a big impression but pretty much empty on the inside Which fruit are you? This is quite good...I am a little bit of all...but I guess the two that I relate to...is the nuts...and the poor tomato.
Five Solas Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 11:49 AM, HappyJackWagon said: If one were to experiment on the word and judge the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints based on the fruits it bears as evidenced on this message board, what results do you feel that experiment would yield? Would the fruit seem good, evil, or tasteless? Put another way, if at least a portion of the value of the gospel message is determined by the lives of the people it produces, as measured in faith, hope, charity, and love, is the gospel fruit good? It's an interesting question, HJW. As a former LDS and committed Christian who leans toward Reformed theology--I do feel a bit like a lightening rod at times. I actually think it's to the board's credit that I am permitted to share my thoughts and solicit feedback, since 2013. It's helpful to me (I have extended LDS family, and this is a way to stay abreast of an important aspect of their lives), and perhaps it's even a little therapeutic at times, like a diary. My initial thought is that even if you could measure the fruit in some way--what would it mean? There's a wide range of emotion and responses on the forum. There are some who remind me of a former bishop or two (the church is true - the problem is you). When they perceive their worldview threatened, they respond with righteous indignation (like the relative who got upset I ordered a beer in a restaurant in front of their kids--never mind that mine where there too). They complain and I draw the occasional thread-ban. But posters like this seem to be fewer and further between as the years go by (and I seem to draw fewer thread-bans). There's a much larger group who might be called left-of-center LDS--and I think their agenda is quite different. They want greater tolerance, transparency, and what they really seem to want is a little reform of the LDS Church. And then there's folks who seem to be developing their own theologies, espousing ideas lost to the LDS mainstream (but perhaps were more familiar a 100+ years ago). All that to say, I think you'd need more consensus to ask for a measurable standard. And while the board certainly does have rules--it's difficult to see folks coming together and agreeing on a higher degree of civility and holding themselves accountable. It might even be counter-productive for the agendas of some--because someone else's rudeness might actually serve as a validation of sorts. --Erik ________________________________________ I'm unclean, a libertine And every time you vent your spleen I seem to lose the power of speech You're slipping slowly from my reach --Placebo "Without You I'm Nothing" 1
Gray Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 1:49 PM, HappyJackWagon said: If one were to experiment on the word and judge the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints based on the fruits it bears as evidenced on this message board, what results do you feel that experiment would yield? Would the fruit seem good, evil, or tasteless? Put another way, if at least a portion of the value of the gospel message is determined by the lives of the people it produces, as measured in faith, hope, charity, and love, is the gospel fruit good? There's a wide range. Most seem to be decent people. We all have bad day and fall short 3
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gray said: There's a wide range. Most seem to be decent people. We all have bad day and fall short Perhaps, but some of us, surely, it is transparently obvious, are utterly irredeemable, utterly reprobate, utterly vile excuses for human beings who should forfeit our right, outright, to live anywhere near civilized society. In fact, we should forfeit our very right to live period! (Right Happy Jack Wagon?! Come on! I know that's why you started the thread! Just admit it! Huh, huh, huh! I'm right, aren't I?! Huh, huh, huh! ) 1
strappinglad Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 Praise God and pass the ammunition... I mean the emoticons, right Kenngo? 1
Brother Bear Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 16 hours ago, JAHS said: Which fruit are you? Durian.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) Erik, For whatever it's worth, I don't hold you any personal ill will, our disagreements (sometimes passionate, sometimes pointed, at least for me ... I'm sure that, unlike moi, you're the very epitome of calmness, coolness, and level-headedness at all times ) notwithstanding. My offer to buy you a beer while I have a ginger ale still stands, but the last time you were in Utah, I didn't hear about it until after the fact. I don't have any idea what might take me up that way (although there are a couple of Board denizens I find fascinating who live in your great state, you included, and whom I would love to meet IRL). But don't fall for it, Erik! Don't be fooled by my tepid (and surely insincere!) efforts to offer you an olive branch! The thread's originator knows more about my motives than I do! Edited October 29, 2017 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 13 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Praise God and pass the ammunition... I mean the emoticons, right Kenngo? Shhh! Bill Reel might be lurking hereabouts!
Avatar4321 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 2:48 PM, pogi said: If you ask any active believing member who lives the gospel to the best of their abilities, they will report that the gospel has made a difference in their life for the better. That is not something that we can objectively measure and compare against other people in any meaningful way. He is not saying that Mormons will be measurably better people than those of other faiths. The symbol of the cross on a church, or having it tattooed on your arm, does not automatically make you a better person. It is just a symbol of what they worship - that they are Christians and worship Christ. He is simply saying that we, "must become" the expression of our faith. He is saying that it is more meaningful if we can make our lives an expression of whom we worship. How we live our lives is the symbol of our worship. The more pure our worship, the more pure and Christlike our lives will be. It will vary from person to person. Even just going to church and taking the sacrament is a symbol of our worship, magnifying our callings is a symbol of our worship, paying tithing is a symbol of our worship, etc. etc. etc. We can't measure them? Let's just take one principle: the word of wisdom. Let's take two groups of people have one follow the word of wisdom and one not. You don't think we will be able to objectively see better results in one group over another?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said: We can't measure them? Let's just take one principle: the word of wisdom. Let's take two groups of people have one follow the word of wisdom and one not. You don't think we will be able to objectively see better results in one group over another? I get your point, but I believe, in fairness, that Erik is referring to the ability to measure adherence to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ based on one's visible participation on the Board.
Rain Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Five Solas said: It's an interesting question, HJW. As a former LDS and committed Christian who leans toward Reformed theology--I do feel a bit like a lightening rod at times. I actually think it's to the board's credit that I am permitted to share my thoughts and solicit feedback, since 2013. It's helpful to me (I have extended LDS family, and this is a way to stay abreast of an important aspect of their lives), and perhaps it's even a little therapeutic at times, like a diary. My initial thought is that even if you could measure the fruit in some way--what would it mean? There's a wide range of emotion and responses on the forum. There are some who remind me of a former bishop or two (the church is true - the problem is you). When they perceive their worldview threatened, they respond with righteous indignation (like the relative who got upset I ordered a beer in a restaurant in front of their kids--never mind that mine where there too). They complain and I draw the occasional thread-ban. But posters like this seem to be fewer and further between as the years go by (and I seem to draw fewer thread-bans). There's a much larger group who might be called left-of-center LDS--and I think their agenda is quite different. They want greater tolerance, transparency, and what they really seem to want is a little reform of the LDS Church. And then there's folks who seem to be developing their own theologies, espousing ideas lost to the LDS mainstream (but perhaps were more familiar a 100+ years ago). All that to say, I think you'd need more consensus to ask for a measurable standard. And while the board certainly does have rules--it's difficult to see folks coming together and agreeing on a higher degree of civility and holding themselves accountable. It might even be counter-productive for the agendas of some--because someone else's rudeness might actually serve as a validation of sorts. --Erik Yes. That's part of what I was thinking with the agency. If there is such a range then how do you judge the parent (church, board etc)? I was wondering yesterday if we are looking at good fruit wrong. We often think of good/bad fruit coming from people/church/nouns. What if we are really supposed to be looking at actions/verbs? It seems like fruit should come from nouns because we talk about the fruit coming from a tree or a bush etc., but when I apply it in real life it seems like the fruit comes from our actions. It works better with the idea of agency. I don't know. I have to look at it more. 1
pogi Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: We can't measure them? Let's just take one principle: the word of wisdom. Let's take two groups of people have one follow the word of wisdom and one not. You don't think we will be able to objectively see better results in one group over another? Most spiritual fruits are subjective. I follow the WoW, my coworkers don’t, and I don’t see any measurable objective fruit in comparing my life to theirs that I can credit the WoW for. Edited October 29, 2017 by pogi
Kenngo1969 Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, pogi said: Most spiritual fruits are subjective. I follow the WoW, my coworkers don’t, and I don’t see any measurable objective fruit in comparing my life to theirs that I can credit the WoW for. I would say the most important benefits of observing the Word of Wisdom are completely subjective. My testimony, rather than being that I will be blessed by my ability (if I were to choose to do so, and I don't) to look down my nose at anyone who has not covenanted to obey the Word of Wisdom, is that am (and will be) blessed for keeping my covenants. My $0.02. YMMV. -Ken
Darren10 Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) On 10/28/2017 at 7:43 AM, Kenngo1969 said: I am a "fruit" of polygamy, or, to be more precise, polygyny ... so I guess, res ipsa loquitur and quod erat demonstrandum? (And, of course, we all know that how polygyny is practiced by the FLDS and by other such groups today is exactly how it was practiced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the 19th century ... right? ) I like what you said and I don’t even speak Latin...that is Latin, correct? Anyway, I like having you around. You are good fruit Edited October 30, 2017 by Darren10
Darren10 Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) On 10/28/2017 at 10:36 AM, Tacenda said: I didn't say all of polygamy is bad, and I am fruit of polygamy in my lines. I'm just saying there is bad fruit on the polygamy fruit tree. Because there is. Are you two saying there is no bad fruit in the church? If the Church as pumkins it does. Edited to ad: Or mangos...BLEHHH! Edited October 30, 2017 by Darren10
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darren10 said: If the Church as pumkins it does. Edited to ad: Or mangos...BLEHHH! Haha! How is Texas doing Darren?
Darren10 Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/28/2017 at 10:46 PM, JAHS said: If we judge by the fruits of the people on this board I would say it is quite the mixed fruit salad Some reliable crisp red apples Some sour grapes Some rotten bananas A few nuts. Are they a fruit? Tomatos. Try to fit in as a fruit but can't be accepted as such Nectarines - Sweet and delicious on the inside, but hard as a rock on the outside. Pineapples - Looks intimidating and dangerous, but is actually really sweet. Pumpkins - Makes a big impression but pretty much empty on the inside Which fruit are you? Good question on the nut category. I asked my wife and I decided that since the nut is the actual seed, it is a rruit. Also, this might help. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(fruit) Learning new things is good fruit. So that’s good for this forum.
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