blueglass Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 11 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Fascinating that the belief in the literal gathering of Israel at the "center place" in Missouri is dismissed as an immature inability to understand metaphor. When I was on my mission, my mission president traveled to Salt Lake for a conference, and when he came back, he told us of meeting President Hinckley in his office. President Hinckley showed him street plans and architectural designs for the New Jerusalem to be built in Independence, Missouri. Later, when I was working for the church, a man I knew in the church's property division told me that it was church policy to buy property adjacent to or near the temple lot site in Independence. He said it drove him crazy as a specialist in investment property, as these purchases rarely made financial sense but were purchased for their "religious significance" in anticipation of eventually fulfilling prophecy. It's a shame those folks didn't realize it was all just a metaphor to be taken seriously only by the spiritually immature. If city Creek cost 2B such a temple city with net-zero architecture would cost at least $10B and take 25 years.
JLHPROF Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, blueglass said: If city Creek cost 2B such a temple city with net-zero architecture would cost at least $10B and take 25 years. I don't think money will be an issue, or even in use. 1
blueglass Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 11:54 AM, FearlessFixxer said: For the last 187 years there have been 15 Prophets on the earth at any given time (give or take a little for the interim periods after the death of one). Early on in Church history, it seems like these men, especially the one who was designated as President, prophesied on a regular basis. Things like when the second coming would be, the world would be flooded with the gospel, changes in people's pigment (please don't think this is me being passive aggressive, just trying to stick to the facts), etc. etc. Even things like describing the preexistence or post mortal world could be included, like Harold B. Lee's statement on disabled people or Bruce R. McConkie's ideas on where animals originated from. I am not passing judgement on the veracity of any of these things, just pointing out things that could be seen as prophesies. My question: Do you still see the current Prophets prophesying? Has their role shifted more to an administrative role or maybe a figure head role? If you see them as still prophesying, what are some contemporary examples? Would it be their commentary of social issues? Like, beware of the detrimental effects of gay rights, or something along those lines? Do you consider something like the missionary age change to be prophecy? The only thing I can think of that would be close is the November Policy which Nelson said was a revelation to the Q15. I have heard some Mormons dispute that and say it is just a policy and that Nelson is wrong...but I don't know what the majority of members think about it. In summary, do the current prophets prophesy and what are some contemporary examples? -Ryan Hinckley's talk to the boys and to the men. He predicted a financial crash in 7 years. He downplayed that he was not prophesying.
Calm Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, blueglass said: Hinckley's talk to the boys and to the men. He predicted a financial crash in 7 years. He downplayed that he was not prophesying. CFR please... add-on: never mind, I found what you were referring to "I wish to speak to you about temporal matters. As a backdrop for what I wish to say, I read to you a few verses from the 41st chapter of Genesis. [quotes story of Pharoah's dream]... Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order." So is the story of the man who was rich one day and then injured and broke the next a prediction as well in your view? Edited October 5, 2017 by Calm 1
blueglass Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, Calm said: CFR please... It begins halfway through his talk before he starts speaking about the great depression , massive debt, and elder Faust's mortgage. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/to-the-boys-and-to-the-men?lang=eng "As a backdrop for what I wish to say, I read to you a few verses from the 41st chapter of Genesis." "Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt: “And there shall arise after them seven years of famine;" "So many of our people are living on the very edge of their incomes. In fact, some are living on borrowings." "There is a portent of stormy weather ahead to which we had better give heed." "We are beguiled by seductive advertising. Television carries the enticing invitation to borrow up to 125 percent of the value of one’s home. But no mention is made of interest." "I am somewhat familiar with the case of a man who was highly successful in his profession. He lived in comfort. He built a large home."
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 8 hours ago, JLHPROF said: The problem is we have canonical scripture that states: D&C 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. 7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh. AND 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming. 13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ. So either we have passed the 6000 year mark and entered the 7000 years or we haven't. So we are back to the same problem. The latter-day saints don't believe they are in the last days any more. Or for those that do, they think they have decades or even centuries yet to go before anything changes. It's true that since the days of Christ they have been thinking the end is nigh, and in Joseph and Brigham's day they have thought the end was nigh. But by mere virtue of the fact that in Joseph's day it was 1830-1840 years after Christ and best estimate of 4000 years since Adam should have told them they had a century or so to go. What is the excuse of the saint living in the year 2017 who claims to believe their scripture? So one has to believe then that Adam lived 6k years ago? Not. Quote Revelation 21King James Version (KJV) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. So if you want to see it that way, there is a new heaven and new earth after the first earth pass away, BEFORE New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. Making it not built by men I guess. What does that mean? I would not get caught up on one interpretation. In fact for me, the more interpretations the better quite frankly. Who but God could use the same words to tell layer upon layer of truth?? Anybody can make stuff up that x is going to happen on April 6, 2018 but God says "no man knows the time" Not even Timex!
blueglass Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, Calm said: CFR please... add-on: never mind, I found what you were referring to "I wish to speak to you about temporal matters. As a backdrop for what I wish to say, I read to you a few verses from the 41st chapter of Genesis. [quotes story of Pharoah's dream]... Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order." So is the story of the man who was rich one day and then injured and broke the next a prediction as well in your view? I definitely consider this talk a bona fide prophecy. He's giving 7 years to get your houses in order pay off debt, don't get the 2nd mortgage, prepare for loss of income, etc. Even now Canada is still in a huge bubble, germany has still not capped there banks like the US has, Japan is way beyond the Keynesian end point in credit leverage over gdp and China is a ticking time bomb of debt. 1
Calm Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 9 minutes ago, blueglass said: It begins halfway through his talk before he starts speaking about the great depression , massive debt, and elder Faust's mortgage. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/to-the-boys-and-to-the-men?lang=eng "I am somewhat familiar with the case of a man who was highly successful in his profession. He lived in comfort. He built a large home." Is this a prediction as well? We are all going to be rich and then be injured and lose everything?
blueglass Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Is this a prediction as well? We are all going to be rich and then be injured and lose everything? He's predicting that buying a mcmansion in 1998-1999 in the suburbs on a 5/1arm is going to bite you in 7 years when you could lose your job. Yes I think you would agree we should seek riches in Christ , rather than credit based fake wealth. We should have a true capital based economy not such a huge credit based economy. Edited October 5, 2017 by blueglass
Calm Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, blueglass said: He's predicting that buying a mcmansion in 1998-1999 in the suburbs on a 5/1arm is going to bite you in 7 years when you could lose your job. Yes. Well, it will bite you if you lose your job in one year. Isn't that a given? You make foolish choices and go way in debt, you lose your job in 1 month or 20 years, it is going to bite you. "I definitely consider this talk a bona fide prophecy." So when he states he is not prophesying, he is lying? Add-on: I am trying to understand...on the one hand you say it is a bona fide prophecy, that the consequences he warned about will come true...on the other hand you pointed to 7 years which was 2005 from the time he spoke for the fat period and then 2012 for the end of the famine... And then there is the issue that he himself said it wasn't a prophecy, so if you are right, he was lying. Why? Edited October 5, 2017 by Calm
sunstoned Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) On 10/2/2017 at 10:17 AM, ksfisher said: It seems as if those who are saying that is was not revelation were not there. President Nelson was there. I would think that his word would carry much more weight than that of critics who were not. I think the problem is the way Nelson came out with this statement. The original policy release was in the church handbook. It was not brought before the membership for a vote, it was not even announced, and for sure, it was not positioned as a revelation, but as a policy. It was slipped in the handbook without any public announcement at all. It was then leaked to the public and the response was very negative. This caught the Q15 by surprise, and the went into damage control, which included a staged interview with Todd Christofferson. The negative PR continued and later the policy was modified. Then it was after the fact, and only after continued serious push back on the policy by members and non-members that Nelson played the revelation card. Which version was the revealed word of God? The original or the modified version? Forgive me, but this does not sound like revelation. It sounds like an attempt at damage control. Edited October 5, 2017 by sunstoned
ksfisher Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I think the problem is the way Nelson came out with this statement. The original policy release was in the church handbook. It was not brought before the membership for a vote, it was not even announced, and for sure, it was not positioned as a revelation, but as a policy. It was slipped in the handbook without any public announcement at all. It was then leaked to the public and the response was very negative. This caught the Q15 by surprise, and the went into damage control, which included a staged interview with Todd Christofferson. The negative PR continued and later the policy was modified. Then it was after the fact, and only after continued serious push back on the policy by members and non-members that Nelson played the revelation card. Which version was the revealed word of God? The original or the modified version? Forgive me, but this does not sound like revelation. It sounds like an attempt at damage control. We were talking about the Proclamation.
sunstoned Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 2:31 PM, smac97 said: I suspect these "predictions" will be dismissed as platitudes or bromides, not as "prophecy." But I'll let them speak to that, and will stand corrected if appropriate. Thanks, -Smac This was a good talk, and it might be inspiring. But this is a very low bar if you call it prophecy. This type of sermon can be found in most all christian churches every sunday morning.
sunstoned Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 23 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yes- I see them as a change in the direction of openness and an important declaration of what is and what is not doctrine. As an indication of attitude, they are very important The change in direction is what is "prophecy". Some would see this change in direction as a response to pressure from within the church and from without to be more open and honest. All organization that are concerned about their public image would respond in like manner.
sunstoned Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ksfisher said: We were talking about the Proclamation. Same thing applies. The proclamation was released with no mention that it was a revelation. GBH, who was the prophet at the time did not call it a revelation. It was 20 plus years later that Oaks played the revelation card in an attempt to double down in support of the very unpopular November policy. Edited October 5, 2017 by sunstoned 1
rockpond Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: It seems that NO ONE hereabouts understands the concept of Wittgensteinian Language games. You crack me up. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I object to folks who do not understand that there are cognitive stages we all go through which specifically INCLUDE the possibility as well of taking things literally Would you agree that the institutional church tends to try to keep membership in the stage of believing literally? That's how I see it. When I left that stage (and still today) I feel a certain amount of ostracism within my ward and among LDS family and friends.
Calm Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, rockpond said: You crack me up. Would you agree that the institutional church tends to try to keep membership in the stage of believing literally? Do you mean the unorganized social side or the official, organized institution that produces manuals, etc.?
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: Some would see this change in direction as a response to pressure from within the church and from without to be more open and honest. All organization that are concerned about their public image would respond in like manner. So? What's your point? The church is not a human organization? God is a human you know. God changes and we have an open Canon. Where's the beef?
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: You crack me up. Would you agree that the institutional church tends to try to keep membership in the stage of believing literally? That's how I see it. When I left that stage (and still today) I feel a certain amount of ostracism within my ward and among LDS family and friends. Read the Perry Scheme. The church has a primary you know. I don't think nursery kids would get Wittgenstein. And also for you, one has to communicate with your family and friends. If you are not teaching what they cannot understand you will get no where. This thread is a perfect example. How many Catholics understand Aquinas? You felt ostracized ? Why did you feel it was your job to teach them what they could not understand yet? Edited October 5, 2017 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) Not everyone has the philosophy affliction or needs it. It does not make life easy, just rational Edited October 5, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I don't think money will be an issue, or even in use. I think you're right. Even back then (this was April 1985), I was surprised that they had the plans all drawn up and ready to go. For some reason, I had always thought those events were far off in the future and remote to my life.
rockpond Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 8 hours ago, Calm said: Do you mean the unorganized social side or the official, organized institution that produces manuals, etc.? The organized institution.
rongo Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, Calm said: So when he states he is not prophesying, he is lying? I was there at that talk with my father-in-law (who very much needed to listen and take it to heart, but it was in one ear and out the other). You're the one trying to make this a "lying" showdown. blueglass gave this as a wonderful example of prophecy, not as a lie (thanks, blueglass!). Despite President Hinckley saying he wasn't prophesying, the crash happened seven years after his talk. I remember telling my wife after the priesthood session what a wonderful feeling and experience it was. And then, seven years later, we were dealing with the carnage of the crash in my ward. My town, which had sprung up from 3000 to 50000 in the seven years, became half-empty. The pain of this time brought back President Hinckley's prophecy vividly to mind. He was most certainly prophesying, even though he said he wasn't. To me, this shows his timidness in wanting to be careful (akin to his interviews/statements on the Snow couplet). It brings to mind President Packer's statement (in a stake conference we had) that we are too afraid to prophesy, and play it safe. Prophesy, and leave it up to God to fulfill it!
rongo Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, sunstoned said: Which version was the revealed word of God? The original or the modified version? Forgive me, but this does not sound like revelation. It sounds like an attempt at damage control. This is a very good point. Which version was the revelation President Nelson referred to in the devotional address? That's what I don't care for with "revelation by committee/council." 1
CV75 Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, rockpond said: Would you agree that the institutional church tends to try to keep membership in the stage of believing literally? That's how I see it. When I left that stage (and still today) I feel a certain amount of ostracism within my ward and among LDS family and friends. What does the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve do "to try to keep membership in the stage of believing literally," for example, in relation to the temple rites? Or in relation to the resurrected Christ? In relation to parables and their lessons? I think looking at how they testily and teach of these subjects in General Conference would be a strong indicator. Where is their testimony and instruction of a literal belief, or of symbolic and figurative things, proving to be a retardant to the saints' spiritual development according to any cognitive/moral scale? Edit: Just came across these examples. Where do you see in these most recent teachings (including the additional Youth and Children comments to the First Presidency Message) an effort to keep membership in the stage of believing literally? https://lds.org/liahona/2017/10/becoming-true-disciples?cid=HP14FPM2&lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/three-sisters?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/a-yearning-for-home?lang=eng Edited October 5, 2017 by CV75 1
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