What is the role of the modern day Prophet, Seer and Revelator

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think the problem is in defining the word 'imminent'.   Obviously, what is imminent to the Lord is not necessarily imminent to us mortals.  We could be in 'the last days' for hundreds of years (and have been already, as you pointed out).  I think that's why people have stopped focusing on that phrase.  We don't really know how to define it accurately and I think people have gotten tired of trying.

The problem is we have canonical scripture that states:

• D&C 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
  7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

AND

• 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
  13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

So either we have passed the 6000 year mark and entered the 7000 years or we haven't.

So we are back to the same problem.  The latter-day saints don't believe they are in the last days any more.  Or for those that do, they think they have decades or even centuries yet to go before anything changes.  It's true that since the days of Christ they have been thinking the end is nigh, and in Joseph and Brigham's day they have thought the end was nigh.
But by mere virtue of the fact that in Joseph's day it was 1830-1840 years after Christ and best estimate of 4000 years since Adam should have told them they had a century or so to go.
What is the excuse of the saint living in the year 2017 who claims to believe their scripture?

[Atheist Mormon]

Quote

What is the role of the modern day Prophet, Seer and Revelator?

Let me ask a counter Q. to you; are you a christian, atheist or whatever? If so what kinda mold would you like to fit LDS faith into? If you live anywhere in Utah, I'd suggest u visiting Temple Square, you can get an official scoop from there....If you ask anyone here (active, inactive, non_believer), their opinions could be as good as yours.

As for your chaos theory; it will scare nobody. Humans are used to ambushes, ever since leaving their secure arboreal niches  and walking on two feet.

[bluebell]

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The problem is we have canonical scripture that states:

• D&C 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
  7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

AND

• 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
  13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

So either we have passed the 6000 year mark and entered the 7000 years or we haven't.

So we are back to the same problem.  The latter-day saints don't believe they are in the last days any more.  Or for those that do, they think they have decades or even centuries yet to go before anything changes.  It's true that since the days of Christ they have been thinking the end is nigh, and in Joseph and Brigham's day they have thought the end was nigh.
But by mere virtue of the fact that in Joseph's day it was 1830-1840 years after Christ and best estimate of 4000 years since Adam should have told them they had a century or so to go.
What is the excuse of the saint living in the year 2017 who claims to believe their scripture?

If think if figuring out when the second coming was going to occur was as easy as knowing whether or not we were in the 7000 years or not, the scriptures wouldn't also say that no one knows when the second coming was and that Jesus would come like a thief in the night.  If it was just a matter of math, it would be neither a mystery nor unexpected when it finally happened.

The Latter-day Saints still believe they are in the last days, they just don't interpret what that means in the same way that they used to.  

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

If think if figuring out when the second coming was going to occur was as easy as knowing whether or not we were in the 7000 years or not, the scriptures wouldn't also say that no one knows when the second coming was and that Jesus would come like a thief in the night.  If it was just a matter of math, it would be neither a mystery nor unexpected when it finally happened.

The Latter-day Saints still believe they are in the last days, they just don't interpret what that means in the same way that they used to.  

I always figured that death was the functional equivalent of the Second Coming, so why worry about the actual date? Just live so you have few regrets about who you are and what you do when you die.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, bluebell said:

If think if figuring out when the second coming was going to occur was as easy as knowing whether or not we were in the 7000 years or not, the scriptures wouldn't also say that no one knows when the second coming was and that Jesus would come like a thief in the night.  If it was just a matter of math, it would be neither a mystery nor unexpected when it finally happened.

The Latter-day Saints still believe they are in the last days, they just don't interpret what that means in the same way that they used to.  

As I posted a while back, Joseph Smith taught that the prophets would know according to Amos 3:7.
He specifically said they would know about the second coming.
But I agree about math.  Not trying to mathematically pinpoint the second coming.  Just recognizing that 7000 years is a finite number, the millennium is 1000 years in length and we are hovering right around the start of the 7th thousand years.  Whatever method and timing the events come we may not know, but imminent is still the right word.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is what I find interesting about the difference (or the change) in the predominant “style” of spiritual manifestations from the days of yore. Those who either poo-poo or favor the magical style in Joseph Smith’s day want or challenge it to be seen today, without realizing that spiritual manifestations take many forms, that Joseph operated under the less magical forms as well, and that even today we have examples of the magical style.

Here is where I see a difference: the magical manifestations of yesteryear were witnessed by a relatively small group and preserved in their records, and these accounts passed on through the families, official Church histories and gradually broadcast throughout the world in the 20-21^st centuries as communication became more global.

I have seen “magical” manifestations on a small group scale. I think if people had the self-control to not take notes and pictures and throw these pearls to swine, I suspect we would see a lot more. And as the earthly kingdom develops structurally to function in a bigger, secular and worldlier environment, God’s revelations also course through the kingdom through the medium of those individuals called to service in their apostolic offices and councils.

Those who despise the magical view now want the church to hold that view with incantations and miracles and " thus sayeth the Lord".

Go figure.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The problem is we have canonical scripture that states:

• D&C 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
  7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

AND

• 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
  13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

So either we have passed the 6000 year mark and entered the 7000 years or we haven't.

So we are back to the same problem.  The latter-day saints don't believe they are in the last days any more.  Or for those that do, they think they have decades or even centuries yet to go before anything changes.  It's true that since the days of Christ they have been thinking the end is nigh, and in Joseph and Brigham's day they have thought the end was nigh.
But by mere virtue of the fact that in Joseph's day it was 1830-1840 years after Christ and best estimate of 4000 years since Adam should have told them they had a century or so to go.
What is the excuse of the saint living in the year 2017 who claims to believe their scripture?

I think there is some wiggle room that allows "the beginning" to span several decades, and even a century or more if necessary. Opening a seal also takes time.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As I posted a while back, Joseph Smith taught that the prophets would know according to Amos 3:7.
He specifically said they would know about the second coming.
But I agree about math.  Not trying to mathematically pinpoint the second coming.  Just recognizing that 7000 years is a finite number, the millennium is 1000 years in length and we are hovering right around the start of the 7th thousand years.  Whatever method and timing the events come we may not know, but imminent is still the right word.

6666LE

GOOGLE

GOOG and Maygoog.

clear evidence.

 

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

One in the last decade? How about the restoration of the ten tribes? The meeting at Adam-ondi-Ahman? 

There have been real efforts from online message board Mormons in recent times to completely downplay or outright allegorize the Garden of Eden being on the American continent. Those in this camp are embarrassed that this was ever taught, and want to distance the Church as much as possible from that. Things of this nature.

Well until this year I wasn't on any forums. So I can't speak to that. But I rather suspect the actual number posting on places like this are small and are very unrepresentative of the church.

As for Adam-ondi-Ahman, I just taught an entire class on it recently at church where it was the topic for the 9 year olds that week. I just don't see the church backing off. Those are getting into more nuanced topics, so it's not surprising they aren't explicit in recent conference talks (which are primarily motivational or getting people to change behaviors). They're certainly still topics of lessons. The history blog at lds.org had a post on Adam-ondi-Ahman and the manuals link to that page. Again just a few years old. It talks about the gathering and events to happen there. The Church News recently had an article about a symposium on Adam ondi Ahman. It emphasized the doctrinal importance. 

I'm not quite sure how one could decide it was downplayed or allegorized. But I don't see much evidence of that. 

Certainly I, like you, have met members who treat Adam and Eve as allegorical. I confess I have a hard time seeing how they can reconcile that to the relatively clear revelations on the topic. I understand why some wish to do that -- trends in broader Christianity combined with issues of evolution. But as I've argued before I think that a false dichotomy raised primarily due to popular readings in the 20th century that tend to dismiss a lot of evidence (both scriptural and scientific) and merely privilege the writings of certain popular GAs on the subject. I can dismiss the idea of no death before the fall yet accept Adam-ondi-Ahman as a place a real historical Adam lived after being expelled from Eden (which I take as a terrestrial world not on this planet)

Edited October 4, 2017 by clarkgoble

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I always figured that death was the functional equivalent of the Second Coming, so why worry about the actual date? Just live so you have few regrets about who you are and what you do when you die.

And every death happens "in this generation" for the one dying.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

And every death happens "in this generation" for the one dying.

Yup.

[clarkgoble]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Whatever method and timing the events come we may not know, but imminent is still the right word.

Although the second coming happens well after the opening of the 7th seal. There's a lot that still has to happen, although I confess I fear all the tensions in our country which make me think things could change must faster than I'd have thought even 10 years ago.

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As I posted a while back, Joseph Smith taught that the prophets would know according to Amos 3:7.
He specifically said they would know about the second coming.
But I agree about math.  Not trying to mathematically pinpoint the second coming.  Just recognizing that 7000 years is a finite number, the millennium is 1000 years in length and we are hovering right around the start of the 7th thousand years.  Whatever method and timing the events come we may not know, but imminent is still the right word.

Did JS know when it was going to be?

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Fascinating that the belief in the literal gathering of Israel at the "center place" in Missouri is dismissed as an immature inability to understand metaphor. When I was on my mission, my mission president traveled to Salt Lake for a conference, and when he came back, he told us of meeting President Hinckley in his office. President Hinckley showed him street plans and architectural designs for the New Jerusalem to be built in Independence, Missouri. Later, when I was working for the church, a man I knew in the church's property division  told me that it was church policy to buy property adjacent to or near the temple lot site in Independence. He said it drove him crazy as a specialist in investment property, as these purchases rarely made financial sense but were purchased for their "religious significance" in anticipation of eventually fulfilling prophecy. It's a shame those folks didn't realize it was all just a metaphor to be taken seriously only by the spiritually immature. 

Yup. Say what one will of the doctrine, but there's a lot of evidence that especially in the 90's the Church took it pretty seriously. While people often play up how the 19th century church was millennialist in a way the contemporary church isn't, I'm not sure I buy it. I think the church is just as millennialist as ever with people still caught up with the signs of the times. Further what's so interesting to me are people like Pres. Hinkley who in some ways downplay worrying about such matters yet, as you note, were simultaneously taking it very seriously.

Edited October 4, 2017 by clarkgoble

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

6666LE

GOOGLE

GOOG and Maygoog.

clear evidence.

 

www = 666

In case you didn't know....

Or maybe that's just energy drinks

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just recognizing that 7000 years is a finite number, the millennium is 1000 years in length and we are hovering right around the start of the 7th thousand years.  Whatever method and timing the events come we may not know, but imminent is still the right word.

The early saints knew about those numbers and lengths of time, right?  I wonder why they thought the second coming was going to happen during their lifetime?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Did JS know when it was going to be?

Not that I know of.  In fact he specifically said he hadn't been given that information.

• D&C 130:15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
  16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
  17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.
   
• ...it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.  HC 2:182

Both of these quotes put 1890/91 as the earliest it could happen (the fundamentalists love this of course).
He also said:

• I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.  HC 6:254

But he also said:

• Remarks on the comeing of the Son of Man by Joseph Smith the Prophet. Made in Nauvoo.
  Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh. This is a sweeping argument for sectarianism against Latter day ism. Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations Oh no he spoke in the present tense no man that was then liveing upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour But he did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture for the prophet says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets consequently if it is not made known to the Prophets it will not come to pass;
  again we find Paul 1st of Thesslonians 5th Chapter expressly points out the characters who shall not know the day nor the hour when the Son of Man cometh for says he it will come upon them as the theif or unawares.  Who are they they are the children of darkness or night. But to the Saints he says yea are not of the night nor of darkness of that that day should come upon you unawares. John the revelator says 14 chap 7th verse that the hour of his judgements is come they are precursers or forerunners of the comeing of Christ, read Matthew 24 Chap and all the Prophets.
  He says then shall they see the Sign of the comeing of the Son of Man in the clouds of Heaven. How are we to see it
  Ans. As the lighting up of the morning or the dawning of the morning cometh from the east and shineth unto the west — So also is the comeing of the Son of Man. The dawning of the morning makes its appearance in the east and moves along gradualy so also will the comeing of the Son of Man be. it will be small at its first appearance and gradually becomes larger untill every eye shall see it.  Shall the Saints understand it Oh yes. Paul says so.  Shall the wicked understand Oh no they attribute it to a natural cause. They will probably suppose it is two great comets comeing in contact with each other It will be small at first and will grow larger and larger untill it will be all in a blaze so that every eye shall see it.
  WJS  180-81 

I don't see these as mutually exclusive.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The early saints knew about those numbers and lengths of time, right?  I wonder why they thought the second coming was going to happen during their lifetime?

Very good question.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The early saints knew about those numbers and lengths of time, right?  I wonder why they thought the second coming was going to happen during their lifetime?

I think generally on the whole, stress-induced wishful thinking, not being inclined to analyze things mathematically, simpler wants, conflating the aims of popular Second and Third "Great Awakening" reform movements that sought societal repentance in preparation for the Second Coming with the Second Coming itself.

I also found this (didn't read all of it) -- prominent/influential religious leaders calculated it this way: http://www.readex.com/blog/calculating-second-coming-19th-century-america-selected-items-american-pamphlets-1820-1922 I won't attribute motive, but I'm sure this kind of urgency helped raise funding and those who didn't contribute believed it anyway.

Edited October 4, 2017 by CV75

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The early saints knew about those numbers and lengths of time, right?  I wonder why they thought the second coming was going to happen during their lifetime?

Largely on the basis of that statement of Joseph Smith even though Joseph thought it was ambiguous. I also think that during the culmination of the persecutions after the civil war over polygamy many members thought that would lead to the second coming. That's partially why, I think, Pres. Woodruff's revelation was so disruptive. In hindsight we can see tons of reasons why they were being a bit irrational in all this. But then that's always been the psychological attraction of apocalyptic literature and mindset. In a certain sense it's a timeless attitude. 

In the 20th century things seemed more rational IMO. You first had the unexpected gathering of Israel and Israel surviving pretty overwhelming odds against it. This was all happening after a world ward and destructive power of nuclear weapons that seemed unlike anything that came before. It's really not hard to understand why, during the cold war, so many saw it as the end times. Suddenly destructions described in the scriptures that seemed so fanciful were now very likely with nuclear war or biological war. At the same time you had that gathering of Israel and then the conquest of Jerusalem by Israel. What was unexpected wasn't that people would believe it was the last days but that the cold war ended so suddenly without a major war. To my eyes it's the events of 1988-1992 that are the real surprise.

There was a last gasp with the first Gulf War - at the time there were many people saying it would usher in prophesy. But I don't think most people believed that. 9/11 shook people up a bit, but despite the setbacks with the second Iraq War, the domination by the United States seemed unlike any prophecy. So it's really that crucial period from 1939-1988 that's the period where apocalypticism seems so sensible.

I should add that during that period there was always an interesting bit of speculation by Bruce R. McConkie that I've kept in mind. His interpretation of Revelation (which I take was purely him trying to figure it out and not revelation) was that the half hour of silence was actually a period of peace after wars. He thought it would be 21 years based upon the ever popular numerology of 1000 years = 1 day. But given he thought that before the cold war ended always struck me as interesting. Now that it's almost 30 years since the end of the cold war, I'm not sure the numbers work. It is interesting though.

[rongo]

(I know, I know. No man knoweth, etc.).

What do you think, though?

Is our new timeline for what Joseph Smith called "the winding up scene" centuries and centuries out now, indefinitely? I think that the general sense of most Church members now is that the Lord delayeth his coming, and we will marry and be given in marriage indefinitely. It's not a major thought.

I actually don't think we're that far out. A lot of things are falling into place. For me, it's less about the Second Coming, and more about the return of the ten tribes, the fulfillment of prophecies within North America, etc. And prophecies within and about the Church. I think the steady decay among active Church members as far as competency, dependability, and resiliency was foreseen and foretold, and is a precursor to other stages. 

The Lamanites need to blossom as the rose, too.  

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, rongo said:

(I know, I know. No man knoweth, etc.).

What do you think, though?

Is our new timeline for what Joseph Smith called "the winding up scene" centuries and centuries out now, indefinitely? I think that the general sense of most Church members now is that the Lord delayeth his coming, and we will marry and be given in marriage indefinitely. It's not a major thought.

I actually don't think we're that far out. A lot of things are falling into place. For me, it's less about the Second Coming, and more about the return of the ten tribes, the fulfillment of prophecies within North America, etc. And prophecies within and about the Church. I think the steady decay among active Church members as far as competency, dependability, and resiliency was foreseen and foretold, and is a precursor to other stages. 

The Lamanites need to blossom as the rose, too.  

No, it's not that far out.

While I won't put a day or even a year on things, I believe we are in the half hour (about 21 years) of silence preparatory to the winding up scene.  Somewhere there will be the seven years of tribulations.  Not sure exactly when any of it started, but I believe that some time in the next 15 years things will be well under way.

• Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
• D&C 88:95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

Some speculated that this would be between 1978 (the last recorded full revelation on record) and the year 2000, almost exactly the right amount of time and no recorded official revelation since.
Or perhaps it is more accurate to say it is at the opening of the seventh seal (2000-2021ish).   Assuming that the year 2000 isn't actually the year 2000 but near to it any estimates are going to be off.

Also if we consider the death and resurrection of Christ (the new day) to be the marking point instead of his birth that would be around 33 AD.  Church was founded in 1830.

• 2021 - "half an hour" after the start of the 7th thousand years
• 2029 - 200 years since the Melchizedek priesthood was restored
• 2030 - 200 years since the Church was restored
• 2033 - approximately 2000 years since Christ was resurrected, and the victory over death was won.

So best guess for major winding up events to start (and yes, just a guess) - sometime between 2020 & 2035.  That's my best guess.

Do I think we make it centuries, or even to the year 2100?  No.  
The Millennium is supposed to be 1000 years of peace and Christ reigning personally, the lion laying down with the lamb, immediately following the end of 6000 years of temporal earth life.  We just may not know when the 6000 years is up.  Clearly we haven't reached the time of peace yet.
We don't know the hour or the day, but we do have scripture to guide our preparation.  After all, are we Millennialists or not?
 

Edited October 4, 2017 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Fascinating that the belief in the literal gathering of Israel at the "center place" in Missouri is dismissed as an immature inability to understand metaphor. When I was on my mission, my mission president traveled to Salt Lake for a conference, and when he came back, he told us of meeting President Hinckley in his office. President Hinckley showed him street plans and architectural designs for the New Jerusalem to be built in Independence, Missouri. Later, when I was working for the church, a man I knew in the church's property division  told me that it was church policy to buy property adjacent to or near the temple lot site in Independence. He said it drove him crazy as a specialist in investment property, as these purchases rarely made financial sense but were purchased for their "religious significance" in anticipation of eventually fulfilling prophecy. It's a shame those folks didn't realize it was all just a metaphor to be taken seriously only by the spiritually immature. 

Who said that?

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

Agreed. 

While I personally tend to espouse mfbukowski’s approach, the default within the Church us certainly more of a literal interpretation. 

I have no problem taking it literally either.  It could all happen soon the way things are going.  I would be love to be called to go to Missouri-  I hope the weather will be less humid during the Millenium

It seems that NO ONE hereabouts understands the concept of Wittgensteinian Language games.  If one is discussing these issues literally and planning for it that is an entirely different matter than discussing it as a metaphor to apply in our personal lives.  How can we liken prophecies of the Millenium to us?   They would have to be metaphorical!!

Look at the OT prophecies which point to the destruction of Jerusalem.   They are said to apply the Babylonians, and to the Romans and also to the last days

Which interpretation is metaphorical?

They can all be seen as literal and all seen as metaphorical

What I object to is the critics who come here understanding nothing and take everything literally because it is easier to ridicule literal beliefs in miracles etc.

I object to folks who do not understand that there are cognitive stages we all go through which specifically INCLUDE the possibility as well of taking things literally

Some folks who have not read about the Perry Scheme do not understand it and some who have read it still do not understand it apparently

If the intent is literal, as it is in discussing street plans for the New Jerusalem, that is ENTIRELY different than discussing death as an analogy for the Millenium most people on earth will not see.

I can see it both ways.   I am sorry some only have tunnel vision.

Perhaps I should have used the term "Cognitive Development" and used Perry's term instead of "adult" because obviously these are independent variables,

Many adults have not moved through the stages

So I apologize for the use of the word "adult"

Again the Perry Scheme:

https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by mfbukowski

[blueglass]

Some will quote 1nephi14:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

For me there was a big shift when I felt god was bigger than I thought and had a wider view and that Mormons comprised one  of many true churches.  This is more of Terry givens view with Mormons carrying a special message and mission to the world.

Also the perspective that our numbers are few has a exclusivity ring and a salve to heal the wounded ego as growth stats will begin to stall and decline by 2018 - 2020.

12 I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church