rongo Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Well obviously the only acceptable definition of prophet is Honestly, I think in Mormonism the word "prophet" is thrown about too much. It is the priesthood keys that are of far more import than any prophecies of the future. Revelator is a much more important office than prophet as well. Joseph Smith taught that " I will advance your Prophet to a Priest, and then to a King". Clearly prophet isn't the most important role. I think most people mean "seer" when talking about "prophet" (or "revelator"). There is a lot of day-to-day "prophet" and "revelator" activity. What seems to be a much less common occurrence today is seership. People differ on why this is. Some would say that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that isn't communicated and that people don't know about. Others would say that a great deal of seership was needed in the early days, but that less is needed today now that the Church is off and running. Cynics or critics would say that there is no seership in the Church today. And yet others would explain it somewhere between these extremes.
Button Gwinnett Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said: Thank you for your response. What would you say to the push back that the Proclamation was just a response to the situation in Hawaii? Or would you say that responding to a current affair is within the realm of prophecy? Your question wasn't directed at me but my view is that the PoF was in direct response to what was happening in Hawaii. All of the timelines that I have seen seem to support this.
smac97 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said: Thank you for your response. What would you say to the push back that the Proclamation was just a response to the situation in Hawaii? Wishful thinking. Speculation and guesswork by interested parties (meaning they are not objective) which is at odds with statements from percipient witnesses (such as Elder Oaks). A pretextual excuse for members who dislike the content of the Proclamation to ignore/sidestep it. Quote Or would you say that responding to a current affair is within the realm of prophecy? I'm not comfortable with an either/or here. I think "the situation in Hawaii" may have had some sort of role in the ongoing revelatory process which Elder Oaks described on Saturday during the first session. It may have been one data point (among many others) that the Brethren considered. But at the end of the day, the Proclamation appears to have been crafted by the Quorum of the Twelve, acting under the guidance of the Spirit, and then ratified by the First Presidency. That's the gist of my recollection of Elder Oaks' remarks. For me, I am very happy about that. I have long felt that revelation is usually precipitated by studying, pondering, prayer/fasting, and counseling in quorums. I am currently in a bishopric, and the counselors provide input and counsel to the bishop on pretty much every substantive decision he makes (distribution of Church funds being a notable exception). I am also married to a wonderful woman, and we regularly come together to counsel and pray and ponder and fast regarding important decisions. Then comes the revelatory guidance (hopefully). Thanks, -Smac Edited October 2, 2017 by smac97 2
strappinglad Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 31 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said: Why do you say 'if'? As a member, I believed that day was inevitable Inevitable , but I don't know " if " I will be around to hear it. 1
RevTestament Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 40 minutes ago, Jeanne said: What about a Seer? A seer may or may not see the future. In my view a seer is someone who sees and understands the scriptures. A seer can open the scriptures to the eyes of the people. A seer can unlock sealed prophecies of future events. So to that extent a seer can be greater than a prophet. IMHO a seer may not prophesy one future thing from the Lord, but advance the understanding of the people immensely - of both things to come and things of the past. A seer is revelatory but not necessarily prophetic. 1
Investigator Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 2 hours ago, strappinglad said: It is my understanding that the spirit of Prophecy is the testifying of Christ and His mission. I don't recall when the last time any of the prophets did that. Oh ya , yesterday. It has been so long! What you seem to want is prognostication/foretelling the future. More like a seer ( stone or not ) . You are correct that there hasn't been much of that . Mind you, we have quite a few prophetic visions yet to be fulfilled so why repeat them? Is the the spirit of Prophecy our testimony of Christ or His testimony of us? What is “The” Testimony of Jesus? When we commonly think of the testimony of Jesus, we think that it is our testimony of Jesus; what we believe about Jesus Christ. However, there are times in the scriptures when the testimony of Jesus means something completely different than that traditional meaning. I spent a good deal of time in the court room testifying in criminal cases. When I hear, we will now hear the testimony of John Doe, I expect John Doe to take the stand and testify about what he knows about the issue at hand. If I were to hear, we will now hear the testimony of Jesus Christ, I would expect Jesus Christ to take the stand and testify. If I were to hear, we will now hear “a” testimony of Jesus Christ, I would expect to hear someone testify regarding what they know about Christ. I will give one example from the scriptures where the testimony of Jesus Christ is talking about His testimony of us. D&C 76: 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; (You could add, some of Thomas, some of Gordon and some of Howard) 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. 102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. This scripture is describing those who will inherit the Telestial kingdom. You will notice that it lumps those who claim to be associated with or followers of true messengers or prophets i.e. Paul, Apollos, Cephas, Christ, John, Moses, Elias, Esaias, Isaiah, and Enoch with those who are liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. You would think that followers of true prophets would at least merit the Terrestrial kingdom. It gives the reason for their assignment to the Telestial kingdom as they “received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant”. Believers in and followers of true prophets surely would have “a” testimony of Jesus Christ. But evidently “a” testimony of Jesus Christ will merit you an inheritance of the Telestial Kingdom. Only if we define this instance of “the” testimony of Jesus Christ as His testimony of us, does this scripture make sense. The revelations of Joseph Smith make this clear… “ There are three grand Keys to unlock the whole subject. First what is the knowledge of God, Second what is it to make our calling and election sure. Third and last is how to make our calling and election sure. Ans, it is to obtain a promise from God for myself that I shall have Eternal life, that is the more sure word of prophycy.'" Peter was writeing to those of like precious faith with them the Apostles First to be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that is the testimony of Jesus Second how is he to get that Holy Spirit; Ans except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God; second except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God:'2 Ques. What is it for a man to obtain salvation Ans, It is to triumph over every foe or ascend far above all enemies for the last enimey to conquor is death and untill that is done you have not obtained salvation.” J. Smith Prophet. Nauvoo. Words of Joseph Smith, Page 209 The Prophet is telling us that we need to receive a promise from God that we shall have eternal life. That promise is the more sure word of prophecy because the Lord is prophesying to us and to the Father that we will have Eternal Life. This is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That is “The” testimony of Jesus. The Lord revealed this to the Prophet Joseph… D&C 88: 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; 5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— 75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will. When we have proven faithful, Jesus Christ will give us the promise of Eternal Life. He will then testify to the Father that he has, though his atoning sacrifice, made us clean from the blood and sins of this generation, fulfilling his promise to us as our advocate, mediator, and intercessor with the Father. Thus it is a prophecy, a promise and the testimony of Jesus Christ of us. This is not to be some event that is to happen sometime down the line in the eternities. It is to happen in this life. D&C 132: 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. Did you catch that in the world part? It is to be sought after and obtained in this life. If those people whose opportunity it has been to hear true messengers, however, waste their time in the pursuit of the trivial and do not obtain THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS in this life, then they will wake up in the hereafter with the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. I pray that we utilize this precious time in this mortal probation to prepare to meet God and not waist our time in the trivial pursuit of the things of this world.
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Investigator said: Is the the spirit of Prophecy our testimony of Christ or His testimony of us? What is “The” Testimony of Jesus? When we commonly think of the testimony of Jesus, we think that it is our testimony of Jesus; what we believe about Jesus Christ. However, there are times in the scriptures when the testimony of Jesus means something completely different than that traditional meaning. I spent a good deal of time in the court room testifying in criminal cases. When I hear, we will now hear the testimony of John Doe, I expect John Doe to take the stand and testify about what he knows about the issue at hand. If I were to hear, we will now hear the testimony of Jesus Christ, I would expect Jesus Christ to take the stand and testify. If I were to hear, we will now hear “a” testimony of Jesus Christ, I would expect to hear someone testify regarding what they know about Christ. I will give one example from the scriptures where the testimony of Jesus Christ is talking about His testimony of us. D&C 76: 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; (You could add, some of Thomas, some of Gordon and some of Howard) 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. 102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. This scripture is describing those who will inherit the Telestial kingdom. You will notice that it lumps those who claim to be associated with or followers of true messengers or prophets i.e. Paul, Apollos, Cephas, Christ, John, Moses, Elias, Esaias, Isaiah, and Enoch with those who are liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. You would think that followers of true prophets would at least merit the Terrestrial kingdom. It gives the reason for their assignment to the Telestial kingdom as they “received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant”. Believers in and followers of true prophets surely would have “a” testimony of Jesus Christ. But evidently “a” testimony of Jesus Christ will merit you an inheritance of the Telestial Kingdom. Only if we define this instance of “the” testimony of Jesus Christ as His testimony of us, does this scripture make sense. The revelations of Joseph Smith make this clear… “ There are three grand Keys to unlock the whole subject. First what is the knowledge of God, Second what is it to make our calling and election sure. Third and last is how to make our calling and election sure. Ans, it is to obtain a promise from God for myself that I shall have Eternal life, that is the more sure word of prophycy.'" Peter was writeing to those of like precious faith with them the Apostles First to be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that is the testimony of Jesus Second how is he to get that Holy Spirit; Ans except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God; second except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God:'2 Ques. What is it for a man to obtain salvation Ans, It is to triumph over every foe or ascend far above all enemies for the last enimey to conquor is death and untill that is done you have not obtained salvation.” J. Smith Prophet. Nauvoo. Words of Joseph Smith, Page 209 The Prophet is telling us that we need to receive a promise from God that we shall have eternal life. That promise is the more sure word of prophecy because the Lord is prophesying to us and to the Father that we will have Eternal Life. This is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That is “The” testimony of Jesus. The Lord revealed this to the Prophet Joseph… D&C 88: 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; 5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— 75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will. When we have proven faithful, Jesus Christ will give us the promise of Eternal Life. He will then testify to the Father that he has, though his atoning sacrifice, made us clean from the blood and sins of this generation, fulfilling his promise to us as our advocate, mediator, and intercessor with the Father. Thus it is a prophecy, a promise and the testimony of Jesus Christ of us. This is not to be some event that is to happen sometime down the line in the eternities. It is to happen in this life. D&C 132: 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. Did you catch that in the world part? It is to be sought after and obtained in this life. If those people whose opportunity it has been to hear true messengers, however, waste their time in the pursuit of the trivial and do not obtain THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS in this life, then they will wake up in the hereafter with the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. I pray that we utilize this precious time in this mortal probation to prepare to meet God and not waist our time in the trivial pursuit of the things of this world. You are speaking of calling and election as opposed to personal belief. Both are valid concepts and teachings of Mormonism. I see nobody claim that conflates the two into the same idea. Joseph (and Revelation) clearly taught that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. That is true. The scriptures also refer to calling and election as receiving the "more sure word of prophecy", which would then be a more sure testimony of Christ. That second comforter is what you are referencing. It is silly to act as though the spirit of prophecy requires the same level as the more sure word of prophecy. They are different levels.
Gray Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: What about a Seer? A seer would be by definition someone who supposedly can see into the future.
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Gray said: A seer would be by definition someone who supposedly can see into the future. I prefer "one to whom divine revelations are made".http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=seer seer (n.) late 14c., "one to whom divine revelations are made," agent noun from see (v.). Originally rendering Latin videns, Greek bleptor (from Hebrew roeh) in Bible translations (such as I Kings ix.9). Literal sense of "one who sees" is attested from early 15c.
Gray Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I prefer "one to whom divine revelations are made".http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=seer seer (n.) late 14c., "one to whom divine revelations are made," agent noun from see (v.). Originally rendering Latin videns, Greek bleptor (from Hebrew roeh) in Bible translations (such as I Kings ix.9). Literal sense of "one who sees" is attested from early 15c. I was going by this one: seer1 sir/ noun noun: seer; plural noun: seers 1. a person who is supposed to be able, through supernatural insight, to see what the future holds. synonyms:soothsayer, oracle, prophet(ess), augur, prognosticator, diviner, visionary, fortune teller, crystal gazer, clairvoyant, psychic, medium; literarysibyl "the woeful predictions of an ancient seer" an expert who provides forecasts of the economic or political future. "our seers have grown gloomier about prospects for growth" 2. archaic a person who sees something specified. "a seer of the future"
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Historically I believe, seers were also ones who could see what was hidden from others, in the past, present, or future. Webster's 1828 defines a seer first as "one who sees", such as a "seer of visions" http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Seer Joseph's seerstone allegedly allowed him to find lost items. Saul went to seek a seer in 1 Samuel 9 to find lost donkeys, iirc. Isaiah 30:10 "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:" Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm 2
rockpond Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 3 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said: For the last 187 years there have been 15 Prophets on the earth at any given time (give or take a little for the interim periods after the death of one). Early on in Church history, it seems like these men, especially the one who was designated as President, prophesied on a regular basis. Things like when the second coming would be, the world would be flooded with the gospel, changes in people's pigment (please don't think this is me being passive aggressive, just trying to stick to the facts), etc. etc. Even things like describing the preexistence or post mortal world could be included, like Harold B. Lee's statement on disabled people or Bruce R. McConkie's ideas on where animals originated from. I am not passing judgement on the veracity of any of these things, just pointing out things that could be seen as prophesies. My question: Do you still see the current Prophets prophesying? Has their role shifted more to an administrative role or maybe a figure head role? If you see them as still prophesying, what are some contemporary examples? Would it be their commentary of social issues? Like, beware of the detrimental effects of gay rights, or something along those lines? Do you consider something like the missionary age change to be prophecy? The only thing I can think of that would be close is the November Policy which Nelson said was a revelation to the Q15. I have heard some Mormons dispute that and say it is just a policy and that Nelson is wrong...but I don't know what the majority of members think about it. In summary, do the current prophets prophesy and what are some contemporary examples? -Ryan I would think we could all agree that someone ordained to the calling of prophet has the keys to prophecy. "Latter-day Saints believe in both ancient and modern prophecy; indeed, continuing prophetic guidance is held to be a characteristic or sign of the true church. These concepts were an integral part of the LDS Church's origin and restoration, and they continue to distinguish the Church from many other religious movements" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, [1992], 3:1160). Prophetic is defined as: accurately describing or predicting what will happen in the future. Have we seen any examples of that, within the church, in my lifetime? I'm not sure. I don't think the November 2015 policy counts as "prophecy" because it wasn't making any predictions. Could it be revelation? I don't know. Nelson says it was. But the First Presidency did not identify it as such when they published it. As for revelation, Oaks gave us some interesting insight into the revelatory process in his Saturday address.
Guest Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 3 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said: For the last 187 years there have been 15 Prophets on the earth at any given time (give or take a little for the interim periods after the death of one). -Ryan The purpose of a living Prophet is threefold, just as it has always been. 1) To direct God's people. 2) To call all to repentance. 3) To be there when the heavens have something to reveal. Which four President since Joseph have done, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F Smith, and Spencer W. Kimball have done. Also arguably, John Taylor did also. I suspect even when it come to admin decisions, it happens more than anyone can imagine. To "reveal" means to uncover that which is secret or unknown (to paraphrase) and that happens all the time, when Prophets and Apostles open our "eyes of understand", and challenges our preconceived ideas of the doctrinal teaching of canonized scripture, as well as comments of Prophets and Apostles of the past, dating back to Jesus Christ, as well as what we might have thought the words of Jesus Christ's sermon meant as well. All we need to to do, is let go of our ego's, and (another paraphrase) "open the eyes of our understanding" and "unstop our ears".
smac97 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: I would think we could all agree that someone ordained to the calling of prophet has the keys to prophecy. "Latter-day Saints believe in both ancient and modern prophecy; indeed, continuing prophetic guidance is held to be a characteristic or sign of the true church. These concepts were an integral part of the LDS Church's origin and restoration, and they continue to distinguish the Church from many other religious movements" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, [1992], 3:1160). Prophetic is defined as: accurately describing or predicting what will happen in the future. "Prophetic" has the following definitions: Quote 1. of or relating to a prophet: prophetic inspiration. 2. of the nature of or containing prophecy: prophetic writings. 3. having the function or powers of a prophet, as a person. 4. predictive; presageful or portentous; ominous: prophetic signs; prophetic warnings. Note that only one of these (the fourth) pertains to "predicting what will happen in the future." My sense is that predictive prophesying is a relatively minor facet of a prophetic calling. Hence the EoM's comments on "prophecy": Quote The predominant assumption by many readers is that this term in the scriptures refers usually to foretelling-the prophetic power to reveal events in the future-but it is not so limited. Prophecy is a diverse spiritual gift bestowed by the Holy Ghost (2 Pet. 1:21; 1 Ne. 22:2; Moro. 10:8; D&C 20:26;68:4). Prophecy is firmly grounded in history, and prophets as spokespersons for the Lord have the power to reveal things relevant to the past, present, and future. The gift of prophecy, as demonstrated by Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, and others, is not limited to any special ordination in the priesthood (AF, pp. 228-29) but can be given to all as Moses understood when he cried: "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" (Num. 11:29; cf. 1 Cor. 14:1-5, 29, 31, 39). In the restored Church all are baptized, confirmed, and provided with the gift of the Holy Ghost, through which all can enjoy prophetic gifts pertinent to their stewardships. ... Through his prophets the Lord reveals the Plan of Salvation and the gospel, full appreciation of which requires a correct understanding of significant events from the past as well as the present and future. Thus, prophetic guidance provides the eternal perspective necessary for individuals to understand their roles in the time in which they live and urges all to repent and prepare for what lies ahead. It is when people need hope that prophets become predictive. And "prophet": Quote The word "prophet" comes from the Greek prophetes, which means "inspired teacher." Although neither the Greek term nor its Hebrew equivalent, nabi, initially required the function of foretelling (Smith, p. 3), all prophecy looks to the future. Since the Lord has chosen some of his servants to be foretellers-to disclose, sometimes in specific terms, momentous events that are to occur-the predictive element often overshadows other implications of the word in the minds of some. ... In most cases, the message is for others and especially for the nation, its leaders, and the people generally. Often it contains warnings and threats, sometimes promises and encouragement. Inevitably there is a predictive element, as messages are mostly oriented to the future but rooted in the past. For the most part, predictions are morally conditioned, based upon the covenant between God and Israel, offering the choice between life and death, with success as the result of obedience and failure as the consequence of disobedience and defiance. Occasionally the oracles are pronounced absolutely, guaranteeing the future, whether of destruction or restoration. You may, of course, choose to approach this concept in any way you choose. But if and when we seek to discuss the LDS concepts of prophets and prophecy, we need to make sure we are not imputing incorrect notions and definitions into the mix. 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Have we seen any examples of that, within the church, in my lifetime? I'm not sure. From the Proclamation: Quote WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. That sounds rather "prophetic," eh? 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't think the November 2015 policy counts as "prophecy" because it wasn't making any predictions. I think you will need to re-visit your understanding of the term "prophecy," as it includes more than just predictions of the future. Thanks, -Smac
Jeanne Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: A seer would be by definition someone who supposedly can see into the future. We need someone to tell us what they see!! There are prophets who did this in bilblical times...and many apostles/prophets in this dispensation has mentioned what they see in the afterlife. I do wish in this horrific times that we had more direction in practical things to help us as well as spiritual.
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, rockpond said: I would think we could all agree that someone ordained to the calling of prophet has the keys to prophecy. "Latter-day Saints believe in both ancient and modern prophecy; indeed, continuing prophetic guidance is held to be a characteristic or sign of the true church. These concepts were an integral part of the LDS Church's origin and restoration, and they continue to distinguish the Church from many other religious movements" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, [1992], 3:1160). Prophetic is defined as: accurately describing or predicting what will happen in the future.... Not according to LDS doctrine, which some may see as selfserving, but it is inappropriate to hold someone to standards of belief that are not their own when describing their doctrine and experience, imo. "A prophecy consists of divinely inspired words or writings, which a person receives through revelation from the Holy Ghost. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10). A prophecy may pertain to the past, present, or future. When a person prophesies, he speaks or writes that which God wants him to know, for his own good or the good of others. Individuals may receive prophecy or revelation for their own lives." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/prophecy-prophesy add-on: I see Smac has already addressed this, but I will leave it anyway. I don't understand when those who have lived for years actively in the Church insist that prophecy and "seeing" can only relate to revelations and visions of the future. Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm 1
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, Jeanne said: I do wish in this horrific times that we had more direction in practical things to help us as well as spiritual. Something more than stay out of debt, get an education, build strong families and relationships, serve your community, etc? How are these not extremely practical?
churchistrue Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 4 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said: For the last 187 years there have been 15 Prophets on the earth at any given time (give or take a little for the interim periods after the death of one). Early on in Church history, it seems like these men, especially the one who was designated as President, prophesied on a regular basis. Things like when the second coming would be, the world would be flooded with the gospel, changes in people's pigment (please don't think this is me being passive aggressive, just trying to stick to the facts), etc. etc. Even things like describing the preexistence or post mortal world could be included, like Harold B. Lee's statement on disabled people or Bruce R. McConkie's ideas on where animals originated from. I am not passing judgement on the veracity of any of these things, just pointing out things that could be seen as prophesies. My question: Do you still see the current Prophets prophesying? Has their role shifted more to an administrative role or maybe a figure head role? If you see them as still prophesying, what are some contemporary examples? Would it be their commentary of social issues? Like, beware of the detrimental effects of gay rights, or something along those lines? Do you consider something like the missionary age change to be prophecy? The only thing I can think of that would be close is the November Policy which Nelson said was a revelation to the Q15. I have heard some Mormons dispute that and say it is just a policy and that Nelson is wrong...but I don't know what the majority of members think about it. In summary, do the current prophets prophesy and what are some contemporary examples? -Ryan lol, at least you know when you're being passive aggressive, Ryan.
Jeanne Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, Calm said: Something more than stay out of debt, get an education, build strong families and relationships, serve your community, etc? How are these not extremely practical? Oh..I understand what mean...and I mean that too but also with...just what in the heck is going to happen with No. Korea /US...what big thing should we prepare for?
CV75 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think you will need to re-visit your understanding of the term "prophecy," as it includes more than just predictions of the future. I agree 100%. But just to address the OP @FearlessFixxer, @rockpond, I was able to find this bold prediction of a future event by Elder Uchtdorf from the first session of this recent General Conference: "Even when you stumble, even when you turn away from Him, God loves you. If you are feeling lost, abandoned, or forgotten—fear not. The Good Shepherd will find you. He will lift you upon His shoulders. And He will carry you home." (italics mine) Edited October 2, 2017 by CV75
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Oh..I understand what mean...and I mean that too but also with...just what in the heck is going to happen with No. Korea /US...what big thing should we prepare for? Given the Bible describes a community over thousands of years, what percentage of 'big events ' do you think were specified enough for the believers to prepare in an unusual way? What would happen these days if there was a Nineveh event (the prophecy triggered a change which invalidated the prophecy)?
smac97 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 19 minutes ago, CV75 said: I agree 100%. But just to address the OP @FearlessFixxer, @rockpond, I was able to find this bold prediction of a future event by Elder Uchtdorf from the first session of this recent General Conference: "Even when you stumble, even when you turn away from Him, God loves you. If you are feeling lost, abandoned, or forgotten—fear not. The Good Shepherd will find you. He will lift you upon His shoulders. And He will carry you home." (italics mine) I suspect these "predictions" will be dismissed as platitudes or bromides, not as "prophecy." But I'll let them speak to that, and will stand corrected if appropriate. Thanks, -Smac
churchistrue Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Ryan, your fight is with the fundamentalistic-thinking, overly conservative aspect of the church. Most of the prophecy in the LDS canon is related to the coming of Jesus Christ or the hereafter. Very little of it is related to world events on the horizon. Even the dramatic examples of this in Isaiah, many Mormons accept current Bible scholarship on these things and are not too concerned about the absence of proof of a prophets abilities to predict things that are happening in our world. I think most Mormons would say that we view our prophet the same way. His purpose is to lead the Church and testify of Christ. We don't think a prophet is perfect. I appreciate you as being part of the change that is occurring which is helping the Church move from that unhealthy and unsustainable version to the stronger, more intellectually sound Mormonism that will survive. I see a time, maybe four generations from now, when my posterity and other members of the Church will applaud the great Ryan McKnight in being involved with that great work that helped the Church adjust its narrative and become stable and secure in a post-modern world. Likewise, the enemies of the Church will despise your name. "The Church was dying, why did he throw it a lifeline? Oh that cunning, dastardly man." Edited October 2, 2017 by churchistrue
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Oh..I understand what mean...and I mean that too but also with...just what in the heck is going to happen with No. Korea /US...what big thing should we prepare for? Almost every "big thing" wasn't revealed to the prophet at that time. They have always been required to act on faith like the rest of us. Heads up on the big stuff is the exception not the rule. 1
Jeanne Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Almost every "big thing" wasn't revealed to the prophet at that time. They have always been required to act on faith like the rest of us. Heads up on the big stuff is the exception not the rule. Okay...but shoot! 30 minutes ago, Calm said: Given the Bible describes a community over thousands of years, what percentage of 'big events ' do you think were specified enough for the believers to prepare in an unusual way? What would happen these days if there was a Nineveh event (the prophecy triggered a change which invalidated the prophecy)? I did not think about the span of times. Guess I should have..it just seems that Isiah could see much like the Seer is described and could see those thousands of years ahead of time. In any case..with different levels of faith, it would be interesting to see who would believe anyway. Thanks Calm.
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