What Do Mormons Believe About Non-Mormon Christians?

[Navidad]

Well, today I earned my 25th post and am now able to initiate posts on my own. I have already written a lot; probably too much. So I will ask the question that is most important to me. It is important for me to know what Mormons really believe about those who claim to be Holy Spirit-led and filled Christians from traditions other than Mormonism. I guess the first part of the question would be "Is there a formalized teaching about this subject based on LDS scriptures or accepted teachings, or is an individual Mormon able to posit his or her own thinking about this question? I start with that because if you asked 100 evangelicals what they think about the Christianity of Mormons, you would get at least 40 different answers. Is that how it is with Mormon's approach to the claims of Christians who come from outside the Mormon tradition? Can a faithful Mormon say one thing and another faithful Mormon respond differently and both still be faithful Mormons? 

My own experience when I ask this question of Mormons is that the answer varies (as I indicated it does with evangelicals toward Mormons). When I ask the question, as a non-Mormon attending Mormon services, what may or may not I do therein? The overwhelming answer I have received is that the Church has no position; it is up to the local leader (bishop or stake president). So under one leader I might be able to attend and take the sacrament. Under another I can sing in the choir and do the other two. In another I may be asked to pray and/ or allowed to testify. And on and on. Is that how it is with the LDS response to me (now I am personalizing it to provide context) asking about my eternal future (without help from Mormon endowments, baptisms for the dead, or other spirit world intervention)? There is a famous evangelical hymn entitled "Just as I am." That is what I am asking you, what is my eternal destiny, both from a salvation and exaltation perspective, just as I am. 

Am I fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church? Can I experience salvation, but not exaltation? Neither? Let's assume for my question I was baptized by an elder/pastor in my church by immersion as a 7 year old, I went on a mission, I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed with oil and thus consecrated to use my Holy Spirit given gifts to the gospel ministry and have exercised those gifts in marrying, baptizing, blessing, counseling, helping, anointing with oil for healing, etc. those who request all or any of that from me. Is there any power of the Holy Spirit/efficacy in my doing that? Or is it all for naught because I am not a Mormon priesthood holder? 

The essence of my question is not helped by my going into what I believe about all of this. I already know what I believe. What I don't know is what Mormons believe with any exactitude, which may not be possible to know when different Mormons reply with different answers, as I have experienced in the past. I also know that kind folks are hesitant to appear to be mean and hurtful to one who they believe to be genuine and sincere in his faith. I don't want that kind of answer. I don't want to be called "brother" if you really don't think I am your brother in Christ. I really would like to know what are the teachings of the Church as you understand them? I would also like different ones of you, if you disagree with a response another of you gives to let me know. Is there diversity of perspective on this view? Also if there is a Church position and there is also in reality a "yeh but" position where you know Mormons respond with different perspectives I would like to know that too. Again, this isn't about my beliefs. I am happy to answer any questions about that in another thread. For example, what do I believe about Melchizedek is not relevant to this discussion. That is another thread. I have written a whole commentary on the book of Hebrews, so sure I have beliefs and opinions about Melchizedek - ask any in another thread if you would like to. I am also very interested in the concept of the Great Apostasy. It makes no sense to me historically or Biblically. But that is another thread. 

Thanks so much for your time and to any of you who see fit to answer. I will try and limit my responses to seeking clarification for things I don't understand or things about which I need a fuller understanding. I just don't want to debate. I am not asking so I can challenge your view. Please believe that and I will do my very best to be faithful to that.

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Navidad
correct spelling mistake

[Avatar4321]

Well, for one that we need to talk to them

[mapman]

I'm not sure that I can answer all of your questions, but I think the clearest and most official teaching about other religions is a 1978 statement by the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) about God's love for all mankind. You can read it here. Basically it says that we believe that all (or at least many) religions, churches, and philosophies are inspired and part of God's plan for his children, and that salvation will be available to all people at some point in this life or in the life to come. I'm not aware of any church teachings specifically about other Christian churches, just that we don't generally believe in an invisible, universal Christian church that transcends denominational lines. Instead, as far as I know, we would consider all other Christian denominations to be in the same category as non-Christian religions as far as their ability to save you goes.

As you were saying, you'd probably get different answers from different Mormons. Some would emphasize that the LDS church is the only religion with real priesthood and authority from God, and the only religion with the fullness of the Gospel (the principles and sacraments necessary for salvation). Others would probably emphasize that God works through lots of people outside of our church, and while we may have a special part to play in God's plan for the latter days, they recognize that most people aren't going to become Mormons. From my point of view, while I believe that we have the fullness of the Gospel, I think that by the time we get to the Second Coming or pass over to the afterlife, it won't make sense to talk about the "Mormon church" because things will be so different then, just as it is nonsense to call the apostolic church "Mormon." Even if I don't agree with everything that other denominations teach, I certainly appreciate the fact that other Christian churches are teaching people about Jesus Christ and his teachings.

If you're not baptized into the LDS church you should still be welcomed to attend and participate. Most callings (volunteer positions) would require you to be a baptized member, but there is no reason why you couldn't do things like help with youth programs, help organize social activities, give prayers, participate in classes, etc. I don't think it's uncommon for non-members to do that, and there shouldn't be any local leaders that restrict you from doing those kinds of things.

Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions!

Edited August 30, 2017 by mapman

[thesometimesaint]

We definitely believe that all people whom claim to be Christians are Christians. That Christ will judge all men/women for what they did with what they believe. That all men/women must accept the Restored Gospel of Jesus the Christ in this life or the next in order to live with him forever.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not sure it's a huge deal if you happen, as a person who has never been baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to take the sacrament, but, in addition to doing so in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice for us, baptized members do so to renew the covenants (promises to God) they made at baptism.  As someone who has never been baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, you have never made such promises, so there is nothing for you to renew.

As for the attitudes of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints toward nonmembers (kudos to mapman for finding that First Presidency statement), while, unlike mapman's contribution, this is simply one man's opinion, see here:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

 

[cdowis]

Christians believe that when they are saved, they will go to heaven.  In Mormonism, "heaven" is the terrestrial kingdom so that fits well in our religion that "saved" Christians will live in the presence of Christ.

Exaltation is eternal  life in the presence of the Father, and that can only be done through the ordinances administered through the priesthood, and to keep those covenants.

Hope that helps.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, today I earned my 25th post and am now able to initiate posts on my own.

I cannot think of any Article of Faith type teaching that summarizes what we “believe about those who claim to be Holy Spirit-led and filled Christians from traditions other than Mormonism.” So I’m sure you will get a variety of answers from different LDS. But I think it is commonly believed that there are lots of good things to believe about them; for example, they are children of God and just as loved in His Atonement and as invited unto Him to dwell in His kingdom as anyone else. These ideas fall in line with several if not all the Articles of Faith.

Our meetings are conducted by the workings of the Spirit (Moroni 6:9), so whatever you are asked to do will be the result of inspiration as needed for the circumstance. Will someone not so conduct a meeting on occasion? Probably, but the Lord will watch out for you.

Everyone must receive the covenants and ordinances by proper authority and keep them in a way that draws upon God’s grace in order to be exalted. The gift of the Holy Ghost has a big role in this process. But everyone will be resurrected (the free or unconditional gift of salvation) and enjoy some degree of glory regardless.

The Lord extends grace toward a person's beliefs as much as his actions, but in God's earthly kingdom, outward performances and expressions of belief are more the purview of the Judges in Israel than individual member's personal beliefs, which are between him and God.

[Meerkat]

I believe Non Mormon Christians I have spoken with generally believe Mormons are not truly Christian. They  believe that we discount Grace, and believe that our works are more important than faith in Christ.  

I am impressed with your approach to this question because my experience is that Non Mormon Christians usually tell me what I believe, rather than ask. It seems to me they prefer to read a commentary, which seems to confer a certain proud confidence in what they think they have learned.  

If they are truly sincere, as you seem to be, I try to encourage them to set aside their skepticism long enough to prayerfully read the Book of Mormon to find out if it really is true.  Because if it is, it is the greatest message in the world.  If it is not, then it is one of the greatest frauds.

I believed in Jesus Christ before I read the Book of Mormon.  Here are a few things from the Book that resonated with me enough to consider whether it really is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

From Alma 5:

"6 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have you sufficiently retained in remembrance his mercy and long-suffering towards them? And moreover, have ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell?
            7 Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.
            8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not.
            9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved.
            10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
            11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
            12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
            13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
            14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
            15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?""

The Book of Mormon is filled with this doctrine. This is what we believe.

Here is another passage from the Book of Mormon to give you an idea of how we feel about those in and outside of our faith:

From Mosiah 4

"14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.
            15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.
            16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
            17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
            18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
            19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
            20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
            21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another."

I hope this can begin to answer your great questions.  Regarding authority and some of the other issues you raised, I believe you will need to read the Book of Mormon with a hope that it is true.  The Gift of the Holy Ghost will give you the understanding you seek in those other areas.  I wish you all the best!

P.S.  Great first post!   I look forward to more. I love your questions.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Meerkat

[pogi]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

That is what I am asking you, what is my eternal destiny, both from a salvation and exaltation perspective, just as I am. 

Am I fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church? Can I experience salvation, but not exaltation? Neither? Let's assume for my question I was baptized by an elder/pastor in my church by immersion as a 7 year old, I went on a mission, I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed with oil and thus consecrated to use my Holy Spirit given gifts to the gospel ministry and have exercised those gifts in marrying, baptizing, blessing, counseling, helping, anointing with oil for healing, etc. those who request all or any of that from me. Is there any power of the Holy Spirit/efficacy in my doing that? Or is it all for naught because I am not a Mormon priesthood holder? 

I know that you don't want to talk about Melchizedek, but it is really hard to answer your question without addressing priesthood authority. 

As to your question about your potential for salvation/exaltation "just as you are".  Obviously we cannot answer that as only God can judge a man's heart.  From the little I know about you, I would estimate that you have a pretty darn good chance of receiving full exaltation.  Because I have a warm fuzzy feeling that you know Jesus Christ and follow Him, and that you always will follow Him, in all things, no matter what he may eventually ask of you.  Obviously, I am hinting at receiving the gifts of the ordinances through authoritative priesthood channels, in this life or the next.

Having said that, I don't want you to think that Mormons perceive all of the fruits of your labor in the vineyard as invalid and "all for naught".  I believe (and I think almost every Mormon would agree) that you are doing an important work in your church.  You are bringing people (and yourself) to Christ.  But ultimately yes, the doctrines of the Church suggest that in order to receive exaltation in the highest kingdom of God, one must receive the ordinances of the priesthood.  It has always been that way.  There have always been human intermediaries (I know you hate that idea) in the work of salvation.  Melchizedek is one example, there were other high priest intermediaries in the Levitical priesthood, there is the requirement of baptism.  Think about baptism.  From your perspective and interpretation of scripture, all true Christians hold the priesthood and can perform baptisms etc.  Ok...well doesn't that make them intermediaries for non-Christians?  It is not like Christ himself baptizes them, no, he uses human intermediaries to do His work for Him.  Even though you don't like the idea, I think you need to accept that even you, being a Mennonite, believe in the concept of human intermediaries who hold the priesthood and authority of God to perform baptisms, marriages, etc.  You also recognize that no matter how good a person is, no matter how much good they do in serving humanity, they cannot receive salvation without receiving certain ordinances such as baptism.  I think you also recognize that all good soil (heart) will bear fruit of these things eventually.  That is why I am not terribly worried about you (from what little I know about you). 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by pogi

[Rain]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We definitely believe that all people whom claim to be Christians are Christians. That Christ will judge all men/women for what they did with what they believe. That all men/women must accept the Restored Gospel of Jesus the Christ in this life or the next in order to live with him forever.

Maybe? I wouldn't argue the definition of Christian because I've had too many people say that I am not Christian because of ______. My definition of Christian was that a Christian was someone who believes that salvation comes through Christ because he atoned for us. That fit every Christian that I knew. Then I talked online with a woman who called herself Christian, didn't believe in his divinity or that he atoned. She believed he was just a good man and felt she should follow his teachings, much like Buddhists live according to Buddah's teachings. No salvation involved. He was not God to her.

So I'm not sure we believe all who claim to be Christian are Christian by our definition, just that we allow men to have their own beliefs on the matter.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Rain

[cdowis]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

Maybe? I'm not going to argue the definition of Christian because I've had too many people say that I am not Christian because of ______.

____ you reject the Nicene Doctrine of the  "one substance entity", the foundation belief that separates Christians from the cults and wanna bees ==>>  Homoousia.

 

NOTE:  It is a little known fact that this was passed only by a majority vote.  Those who voted against it were punished by the sun worshiping emperor.

Edited August 30, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I cannot think of any Article of Faith type teaching that summarizes what we “believe about those who claim to be Holy Spirit-led and filled Christians from traditions other than Mormonism.” So I’m sure you will get a variety of answers from different LDS. But I think it is commonly believed that there are lots of good things to believe about them; for example, they are children of God and just as loved in His Atonement and as invited unto Him to dwell in His kingdom as anyone else. These ideas fall in line with several if not all the Articles of Faith.

The Articles of Faith are in the same category as the Sermon on the Mount. No mention of ordinances or covenants.

[Rain]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, today I earned my 25th post and am now able to initiate posts on my own. I have already written a lot; probably too much. So I will ask the question that is most important to me. It is important for me to know what Mormons really believe about those who claim to be Holy Spirit-led and filled Christians from traditions other than Mormonism. I guess the first part of the question would be "Is there a formalized teaching about this subject based on LDS scriptures or accepted teachings, or is an individual Mormon able to posit his or her own thinking about this question? I start with that because if you asked 100 evangelicals what they think about the Christianity of Mormons, you would get at least 40 different answers. Is that how it is with Mormon's approach to the claims of Christians who come from outside the Mormon tradition? Can a faithful Mormon say one thing and another faithful Mormon respond differently and both still be faithful Mormons? 

My own experience when I ask this question of Mormons is that the answer varies (as I indicated it does with evangelicals toward Mormons). When I ask the question, as a non-Mormon attending Mormon services, what may or may not I do therein? The overwhelming answer I have received is that the Church has no position; it is up to the local leader (bishop or stake president). So under one leader I might be able to attend and take the sacrament. Under another I can sing in the choir and do the other two. In another I may be asked to pray and/ or allowed to testify. And on and on. Is that how it is with the LDS response to me (now I am personalizing it to provide context) asking about my eternal future (without help from Mormon endowments, baptisms for the dead, or other spirit world intervention)? There is a famous evangelical hymn entitled "Just as I am." That is what I am asking you, what is my eternal destiny, both from a salvation and exaltation perspective, just as I am. 

Am I fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church? Can I experience salvation, but not exaltation? Neither? Let's assume for my question I was baptized by an elder/pastor in my church by immersion as a 7 year old, I went on a mission, I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed with oil and thus consecrated to use my Holy Spirit given gifts to the gospel ministry and have exercised those gifts in marrying, baptizing, blessing, counseling, helping, anointing with oil for healing, etc. those who request all or any of that from me. Is there any power of the Holy Spirit/efficacy in my doing that? Or is it all for naught because I am not a Mormon priesthood holder? 

The essence of my question is not helped by my going into what I believe about all of this. I already know what I believe. What I don't know is what Mormons believe with any exactitude, which may not be possible to know when different Mormons reply with different answers, as I have experienced in the past. I also know that kind folks are hesitant to appear to be mean and hurtful to one who they believe to be genuine and sincere in his faith. I don't want that kind of answer. I don't want to be called "brother" if you really don't think I am your brother in Christ. I really would like to know what are the teachings of the Church as you understand them? I would also like different ones of you, if you disagree with a response another of you gives to let me know. Is there diversity of perspective on this view? Also if there is a Church position and there is also in reality a "yeh but" position where you know Mormons respond with different perspectives I would like to know that too. Again, this isn't about my beliefs. I am happy to answer any questions about that in another thread. For example, what do I believe about Melchizedek is not relevant to this discussion. That is another thread. I have written a whole commentary on the book of Hebrews, so sure I have beliefs and opinions about Melchizedek - ask any in another thread if you would like to. I am also very interested in the concept of the Great Apostasy. It makes no sense to me historically or Biblically. But that is another thread. 

Thanks so much for your time and to any of you who see fit to answer. I will try and limit my responses to seeking clarification for things I don't understand or things about which I need a fuller understanding. I just don't want to debate. I am not asking so I can challenge your view. Please believe that and I will do my very best to be faithful to that.

 

I think part of the reason you get different answers is because you have a whole lot of questions here. This is good,  but most people will only pick up on a question or two to answer.

Also, often I find that people don't have a good understanding of what the question is before answering so you may have them all answering their own understanding of what the question is. When I read your title question I had a dozen thoughts about what you might be asking in it.

So I'm not complaining by any means. I love that you have all these thoughts running through your head. It's just that not having been in your brain that's a lot to try to answer all at once.

So starting with the bolded question I thought of an article that talks about the different ways that we talk of salvation, written by one of the apostles. I suspect your salvation question has many sub questions so maybe the article will be able to answer several of them?

Edited August 30, 2017 by Rain

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

......................................................

Thanks so much for your time and to any of you who see fit to answer. I will try and limit my responses to seeking clarification for things I don't understand or things about which I need a fuller understanding. I just don't want to debate. I am not asking so I can challenge your view. Please believe that and I will do my very best to be faithful to that. .....................

Your line of questions is much too broad, Navidad, even though some replies here do provide good pointers.  I suggest that you ask narrower questions about more specific issues.  Meantime, a good introduction to Mormonism is Jana Riess and Christopher Kimball Bigelow, Mormonism for Dummies (Wiley, 2005).

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, cdowis said:

____ you reject the Nicene Doctrine of the  "one substance entity", the foundation belief that separates Christians from the cults and wanna bees ==>>  Homoousia.

 

NOTE:  It is a little known fact that this was passed only by a majority vote.  Those who voted against it were punished by the sun worshiping emperor.

What are you trying to tell me here?

[smac97]

14 hours ago, Navidad said:

Am I fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church?

The LDS Church teaches something a bit more nuanced than the heaven/hell dichotomy found in some other faith traditions.  Here is a brief summary from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars…. So also is the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:40-42). Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22). The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory).

There are various levels of salvation because there are various levels of belief and works among people (D&C 76:99-101). The Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "If God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term "Heaven' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one" (TPJS, pp. 10-11).

You question posits whether a person is "fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church."  So you would first have to define what you mean by "salvation."  And "fully."

Continuing from the above article:

Quote

The gospel of Jesus Christ comprises fundamental principles and ordinances that must be followed to obtain a fulness of salvation. The first steps are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands by one who is in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Additional ordinances are administered in the temple. And finally, "he only is saved who endureth unto the end" (D&C 53:7).

The most sacred ordinances pertaining to the salvation of both the living and the dead are performed in the temples. These ordinances include the Endowment, the sealing of husband and wife to form an eternal marriage, and the sealing of children to parents to form an eternal family. All the ordinances that are essential for the salvation of the living are likewise essential for the dead, beginning with proxy baptism for the dead. These can only be performed in a temple. Baptism is for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom; the Endowment and the sealing ordinances are for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. In the mercy of God and his love for his children, the Plan of Salvation provides for everyone to hear and respond to the gospel either in this life or in the spirit world so that all who will may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel (D&C 137:7-9; see also Salvation of the Dead).

Salvation in a Latter-day Saint context includes activity and service in the kingdom of God for all eternity, unhampered by the effects of sin, death, physical pain, sickness, or other impediments to joy. The highest level of salvation is to become like God and involves a family unit. Lesser degrees of salvation are correspondingly less glorious and have restrictions.

Hope this helps.

Quote

Can I experience salvation, but not exaltation?

Yes.

Quote

Let's assume for my question I was baptized by an elder/pastor in my church by immersion as a 7 year old, I went on a mission, I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed with oil and thus consecrated to use my Holy Spirit given gifts to the gospel ministry and have exercised those gifts in marrying, baptizing, blessing, counseling, helping, anointing with oil for healing, etc. those who request all or any of that from me. Is there any power of the Holy Spirit/efficacy in my doing that?

I don't think there is priesthood power being exercised.  Priesthood authority must come from those who have it.  In the LDS paradigm, it is not something that can be unilaterally claimed by a person (sometimes characterized as "{t}he universal priesthood or the priesthood of all believers").  A common scriptural reference for this point is Hebrews 5:4 ("And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.").

You posit that some form of "authority" is required ("I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed..."), but we may have different beliefs about the nature and scope of that authority.  Latter-day Saints assert a very literal restoration of priesthood authority by the laying on of hands by angelic beings.

The concept of "authority" is fairly important in LDS thought, as follows:

Quote

The claim of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be the only true and living church on the earth is centered on the concept of authority. The LDS belief has been well stated by President Joseph F. Smith: "As to the question of authority, nearly everything depends upon it. No ordinance can be performed to the acceptance of God without divine authority. No matter how fervently men may believe or pray, unless they are endowed with divine authority they can only act in their own name, and not legally nor acceptably in the name of Jesus Christ, in whose name all things must be done" (Smith, p. 102).

...

An explanation of the characteristics of divine authority helps clarify the claims of the Church.

First, "no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" (Heb. 5:4). Divine authority cannot be obtained by study, graduation from school, or mere desire (Acts 19:13-16). It must be obtained in the divinely appointed way, as was the case with aaron (Ex. 28:41).

Second, obtaining the authority to act in the name of God comes by the laying on of hands by one already holding this authority or priesthood (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Moro. 2:1-3; Deut. 34:9). Simon, for example, desired to purchase the apostles' authority, as he might have done with other types of authority. He was condemned by Peter for desiring to obtain the "gift of God" with money (Acts 8:14-20), and purchasing authority carries his name, simony.

Third, ordinances performed in the Church are spiritually binding only when performed under this divinely commissioned authority, received in the proper way (Mosiah 23:17; D&C 20:73;132:13; 2 Sam. 6:6-7). For example, Paul rebaptized certain Ephesians who had been previously baptized by an unauthorized person (Acts 19:1-6). King Limhi and many of his followers were converted to Christ and were desirous of being baptized, but they waited to receive that ordinance because the one with authority did not feel worthy (Mosiah 21:33-35).

A fourth fact concerning divine authority is that it was lost from the earth sometime after the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven (see Apostasy), so a restoration of divine authority was needed (2 Thes. 2:1-4; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-7). In 1829 heavenly messengers, previously endowed with divine authority by Christ himself, conferred authority upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery as part of the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see Aaronic Priesthood: Restoration; Melchizedek Priesthood: Restoration of Melchizedek Priesthood). Members of the Church ordained to this authority now record their personal "line of authority." This record indicates the path of ordinations connecting their priesthood authority to Jesus Christ himself.

Fifth, the authority to preside is efficacious for an individual only when it is accompanied by the common consent of the members of the Church over whom that person will preside (D&C 20:65;26:2;42:11).

Hope this helps.

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Or is it all for naught because I am not a Mormon priesthood holder? 

I'm not sure "all for naught" is appropriate.  I am persuaded that the Lord will bless those who seek to do right according to the light and knowledge given them through the Spirit.

Another important teaching pertains to the "Holy Spirit of Promise."  In LDS belief, even those who receive ordinances by those in authority only receive the eternal benefit of those ordinances if they (the ordinances) are "sealed" by "the Holy Spirit of Promise."  See here:

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The Holy Spirit of Promise is the power by which ordinances and other righteous acts performed on this earth, such as baptism and eternal marriage, are ratified, validated, and sealed in heaven as well as on earth. Paul taught the Ephesians that after acting on their faith in Christ they "were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise," which was the surety of their "inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph. 1:12-14). The sealing of earthly covenants and performances is conditional and depends upon the recipient's personal commitment and worthiness. If a person who has received the Holy Spirit of Promise subsequently becomes unrighteous, the seal is broken until full repentance and forgiveness occur (DS 1:55; 2:94-99).

The necessity of sealing by the Holy Ghost is emphasized in the following passage: "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise,…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead" (D&C 132:7). Earthly representatives of the Lord, such as bishops and elders may be deceived by an unworthy person, but no one can deceive the Holy Spirit, who will not ratify an ordinance received unworthily. This safeguard is attached to all blessings and covenants associated with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think the "made and entered into and sealed" language of D&C 132:7 is important.

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The essence of my question is not helped by my going into what I believe about all of this. I already know what I believe. What I don't know is what Mormons believe with any exactitude, which may not be possible to know when different Mormons reply with different answers, as I have experienced in the past.

I think discussions of this sort are improved when 

• A) we examine our terminology to make sure we are on the same page (such as the definition of "salvation");
• B) we rely principally on "primary sources" (the LDS scriptural canon and formal, repeated teachings from General Authorities, etc. - as Elder Neil A. Andersen put it: "The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find.");
• C) we also look to reasonably reliable "secondary sources" (such as The Encyclopedia of Mormonism); 
• D) we focus on well-established, "core" doctrines of the Church, rather than esoteric topics; and
• E) we each assume the other is asking and answering questions in good faith (and behave in accordance with that assumption).

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I also know that kind folks are hesitant to appear to be mean and hurtful to one who they believe to be genuine and sincere in his faith. I don't want that kind of answer. I don't want to be called "brother" if you really don't think I am your brother in Christ.

"Brother" (and "Sister") are terms of endearment used in the Church as a means of mutually recognizing our common membership in a community of faith.  I don't think they are intended to be used as a form of exclusivism or withheld as a form of judgmentalism.  

Latter-day Saints believe we are all the children of God.  I am happy to think of you and call you a "brother in Christ."  I have much respect and affection for those who are not of our faith who are advancing God's work.  For example, as a missionary in Taiwan I volunteered regularly at a Catholic orphanage for handicapped children.  Most of these children were "orphaned" in the sense that they had been abandoned/rejected because of their handicaps.  The nuns there worked every day to care for dozens of children with all sorts of medical/developmental issues.  My time spent at that orphanage are among the most sacred experiences I have had in this life.  It was a privilege to help those sisters.  

Consider these words from Pres. Dieter F. Uchtdorf:

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We must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman.

I am happy to consider and call you a brother in Christ. 

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I really would like to know what are the teachings of the Church as you understand them? I would also like different ones of you, if you disagree with a response another of you gives to let me know. Is there diversity of perspective on this view?

I think my answers given above are reasonably accurate.  I am, of course, open to correction.

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Also if there is a Church position and there is also in reality a "yeh but" position where you know Mormons respond with different perspectives I would like to know that too.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Quote

Thanks so much for your time and to any of you who see fit to answer. I will try and limit my responses to seeking clarification for things I don't understand or things about which I need a fuller understanding. I just don't want to debate. I am not asking so I can challenge your view. Please believe that and I will do my very best to be faithful to that.

Sounds good!  I appreciate your presence here.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 30, 2017 by smac97

[cdowis]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

What are you trying to tell me here?

This is actually addressed to those who reject your Christianity .

[smac97]

46 minutes ago, Rain said:

Maybe? I wouldn't argue the definition of Christian because I've had too many people say that I am not Christian because of ______. My definition of Christian was that a Christian was someone who believes that salvation comes through Christ because he atoned for us. That fit every Christian that I knew. Then I talked online with a woman who called herself Christian, didn't believe in his divinity or that he atoned. She believed he was just a good man and felt she should follow his teachings, much like Buddhists live according to Buddah's teachings. No salvation involved. He was not God to her.

So I'm not sure we believe all who claim to be Christian are Christian by our definition, just that we allow men to have their own beliefs on the matter.

I think "Christian" is to broad a label.  It is mostly a man-made taxonomic appellation.

The taxonomic nomenclature system introduced by Carolus Linnaeus goes like this (generally, I know there have been some changes to it): 1) Kingdom --> 2) Phylum  --> 3) Class --> 4) Order --> 5) Family --> 6) Genus --> 7) Species

If we were to attempt to apply this system to ourselves, I wonder if it would look something like this: 1) Religions --> 2) Theists --> 3) World Religions --> 4) Abrahamic --> 5) Christian --> 6) New Religious Movements/Restorationist --> 7) Latter-day Saints

It's not a perfect fit by any means, but if "Christian" is roughly comparable to the taxonomic rank of "Family," then there are oodles of people who can fit within the subordinate ranks of "Genus" and "Species" and yet still fit within the "Christian" nomenclature.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The Articles of Faith are in the same category as the Sermon on the Mount. No mention of ordinances or covenants.

 

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The Articles of Faith are in the same category as the Sermon on the Mount. No mention of ordinances or covenants.

forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but doesn't AoF 3 & 4 specifically mention ordinances?

[RevTestament]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

What are you trying to tell me here?

 

39 minutes ago, cdowis said:

This is actually addressed to those who reject your Christianity .

From my stint over 20 years on online forums, most Protestants draw the line here. They have rejected the Catholic Church, but see the Nicene Council as preceding the Catholic Church. There are some exceptions. I spent time on one forum which had a subforum for "unorthodox Christians." That is til it seemed I drew too much attention. Whatever the case, LDS got booted onto the World Religions forum, and I left. Anyway, as cdowis is pointing out many Protestants will say you are not a Christian if you do not accept the Nicene Creed. It itself made one anathema(excommunicate) if one did not accept all its provisos,. which I do not. For instance I do not believe that the Son was begotten before all aeion/ages/worlds. I believe He was begotten in time as the scriptures say "Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." 

The question of the Nicene Council is interesting since it was attended by the bishops of the various cities and their priests. Athanasius was not allowed to participate since he was only a deacon.  Yet, many Protestants now reject those offices of the priesthood. Nor were a majority of the bishops of the Church present. Even if a minority could bind the whole of the Church to a doctrine, did bishops have that right? Or were they supposed to simply judge their local congregations? It seems the job of promulgating the doctrine of God lay in the apostles in the early Church.

In closing Rain, I would disagree that all who call themselves Christian are Christian. I understand your reticence since I too have been called non-Christian, when I believe I espouse all his teachings. There are non-trinitarians who do not accept the atonement or Christ as our Savior. There are gnostic "christians" who fall into this category. I personally do not accept them as Christians. The word Christ comes from the Hebrew Mashiach or "anointed." Yeshua was anointed as our Savior by the Father, and as His personal representative on the earth or His revelator. Thus, telling us he who has seen me, has seen the Father. Yeshua was not just another prophet. He was our sinless Savior. There are central tenets to the gospel, which one must affirm to be Christian. Baptism is another, which many in the modern age refuse. However, Christians were Christians before the Nicene Council, and imho it has little to do with Christianity. The debate over homoousios was somewhat superfluous. 

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Maybe? I wouldn't argue the definition of Christian because I've had too many people say that I am not Christian because of ______. My definition of Christian was that a Christian was someone who believes that salvation comes through Christ because he atoned for us. That fit every Christian that I knew. Then I talked online with a woman who called herself Christian, didn't believe in his divinity or that he atoned. She believed he was just a good man and felt she should follow his teachings, much like Buddhists live according to Buddah's teachings. No salvation involved. He was not God to her.

So I'm not sure we believe all who claim to be Christian are Christian by our definition, just that we allow men to have their own beliefs on the matter.

Thre is always a distinction between what individual people say they believe and what they actually do. But the LDS don't parse Christianity.

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but doesn't AoF 3 & 4 specifically mention ordinances?

Yep:

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3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I am not sure the point about the Ten Commandments is apt given Matthew 22:

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35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And John 14:15:

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15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And Matthew 28:18-19:

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18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And Mark 16:15-16:

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15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And Luke 7:30:

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30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

And John 3:5:

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5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So we are commanded to love God.  Loving God means keeping His commandments.  Keeping His commandments includes receiving ordinances (like baptism).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 30, 2017 by smac97

[mfbukowski]

Navidad

Regarding your question about non-members taking the sacrament, this is a direct quote and final authority for what the policy is on that, taken from Handbook 2, which is published for general circulation and contains official policies of the church we use to direct the stakes and wards

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Although the sacrament is for Church members, the bishopric should not announce that it will be passed to members only, and nothing should be done to prevent nonmembers from partaking of it.

So that is the official policy

You can read about any church policy or procedure directly from the manual and do not need to rely on hearsay or what people tell you the policy is- it is all here in black and white for anyone to see

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church?lang=eng

My quote can be found in section 20.4 of this manual

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng#20.4

Many many of your questions can be answered in this manual,

Quite frankly not everyone follows the manual perfectly or is even aware of every line or policy in the manual, though they should be

So this is the source to check to find out if local leadership is following policy or not.  Sometimes they may not be!

Edited August 30, 2017 by mfbukowski

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, today I earned my 25th post and am now able to initiate posts on my own. I have already written a lot; probably too much. So I will ask the question that is most important to me. It is important for me to know what Mormons really believe about those who claim to be Holy Spirit-led and filled Christians from traditions other than Mormonism. I guess the first part of the question would be "Is there a formalized teaching about this subject based on LDS scriptures or accepted teachings, or is an individual Mormon able to posit his or her own thinking about this question? I start with that because if you asked 100 evangelicals what they think about the Christianity of Mormons, you would get at least 40 different answers. Is that how it is with Mormon's approach to the claims of Christians who come from outside the Mormon tradition? Can a faithful Mormon say one thing and another faithful Mormon respond differently and both still be faithful Mormons? 

My own experience when I ask this question of Mormons is that the answer varies (as I indicated it does with evangelicals toward Mormons). When I ask the question, as a non-Mormon attending Mormon services, what may or may not I do therein? The overwhelming answer I have received is that the Church has no position; it is up to the local leader (bishop or stake president). So under one leader I might be able to attend and take the sacrament. Under another I can sing in the choir and do the other two. In another I may be asked to pray and/ or allowed to testify. And on and on. Is that how it is with the LDS response to me (now I am personalizing it to provide context) asking about my eternal future (without help from Mormon endowments, baptisms for the dead, or other spirit world intervention)? There is a famous evangelical hymn entitled "Just as I am." That is what I am asking you, what is my eternal destiny, both from a salvation and exaltation perspective, just as I am. 

Am I fully able to experience salvation outside of the ordinances of the Mormon church? Can I experience salvation, but not exaltation? Neither? Let's assume for my question I was baptized by an elder/pastor in my church by immersion as a 7 year old, I went on a mission, I experienced the laying on of hands by elders and was anointed with oil and thus consecrated to use my Holy Spirit given gifts to the gospel ministry and have exercised those gifts in marrying, baptizing, blessing, counseling, helping, anointing with oil for healing, etc. those who request all or any of that from me. Is there any power of the Holy Spirit/efficacy in my doing that? Or is it all for naught because I am not a Mormon priesthood holder? 

The essence of my question is not helped by my going into what I believe about all of this. I already know what I believe. What I don't know is what Mormons believe with any exactitude, which may not be possible to know when different Mormons reply with different answers, as I have experienced in the past. I also know that kind folks are hesitant to appear to be mean and hurtful to one who they believe to be genuine and sincere in his faith. I don't want that kind of answer. I don't want to be called "brother" if you really don't think I am your brother in Christ. I really would like to know what are the teachings of the Church as you understand them? I would also like different ones of you, if you disagree with a response another of you gives to let me know. Is there diversity of perspective on this view? Also if there is a Church position and there is also in reality a "yeh but" position where you know Mormons respond with different perspectives I would like to know that too. Again, this isn't about my beliefs. I am happy to answer any questions about that in another thread. For example, what do I believe about Melchizedek is not relevant to this discussion. That is another thread. I have written a whole commentary on the book of Hebrews, so sure I have beliefs and opinions about Melchizedek - ask any in another thread if you would like to. I am also very interested in the concept of the Great Apostasy. It makes no sense to me historically or Biblically. But that is another thread. 

Thanks so much for your time and to any of you who see fit to answer. I will try and limit my responses to seeking clarification for things I don't understand or things about which I need a fuller understanding. I just don't want to debate. I am not asking so I can challenge your view. Please believe that and I will do my very best to be faithful to that.

 

I like some of the answers given.  But I want to try and add some.

It wasn't all that long ago when it was quite acceptable in the LDS Church to preach and think that the Catholic Church was the Church of the Devil.  You may have heard some of what Joseph Smith claimed to have been told about the other Christian Churches in his era and in his dealings. 

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all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

That's a scriptural passage, so I do believe most LDS would accept this as true.  Of course if creeds were developed after this particular interaction between Joseph and an angel, then we may have no position.  Some might take this passage to include any creeds at all. 

These days I think the notion that the Catholic Church is the abominable Church spoken of in scripture is largely not accepted among Mormons, although some no doubt think it remains true.  I do think the passage "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." is largely used within Mormonism to describe other Christian sects, though.  It's also the case that Mormons typically have a pretty poor view of other Christians, often mocking their beliefs, or speaking ill of them in Church or other settings, which is seen as a bad thing for some of us.  Mormons also like to caricaturize other Christian beliefs in order to add strength to their own.  There's nothing official in most of this though.  I'm just speaking of my impressions regarding how Mormons view others.  In the end, though, most would follow up the caricaturizing and mocking with something like, "but they have some truth.  They carry some good, but not the whole truth."  Another type of reasoning and comment that really annoys some within the Church like me. 

I think some have given some pretty good ideas regarding how the LDS Church views other Christian groups.  The LDS Church does not accept ordinances such a baptism of others. 

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's also the case that Mormons typically have a pretty poor view of other Christians, often mocking their beliefs, or speaking ill of them in Church or other settings, which is seen as a bad thing for some of us. 

You can't be serious?  You think that is "typical"?

I wonder if Navidad's extensive experience with Mormons will reconcile well with your assessment. 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by pogi