What Do Mormons Believe About Non-Mormon Christians?

RevTestament · September 2, 2017

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

You all seem obsessed with issues related to the trinity and the NIcene Creed. No one ever based their salvation and eternal destiny on either!

i don't want to belabor the point, but the early state church certainly did. If you didn't agree with their formula and say it in church, they made you anethema and excommunicated you They believed you weren't saved.. Even in this modern day there are many, many Protestants who do not believe you are Christian if you don't accept the Nicene Creed.

However, like you I don't believe those particular issues are critical to one's salvation. Nevertheless, much of the rest of Christianity certainly seems to think it is. However, I do believe it is critical to following Yeshua and finding the narrow way to the holiest of all. It's hard to know what to do, and what to be, if one doesn't understand at all the nature of God. That is where it becomes critical. It sounds to me like you may not feel that is critical. Perhaps you feel to follow Yeshua is to exalt oneself?

Navidad · September 2, 2017

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

You will find significant agreement with this statement among Mormons. We are talking past each other again hurling preconceived notions of what each other believes. The word "better" may be a poor descriptor. Mormons don't look at faith as a contest either. Why do you assume that makes no sense to us?

Thanks for your post. It resonates with me. You seem to have edited it from the version I got in an email notification. In that email you say, "We are also certain in the area of authority. However, we all know better people than ourselves who are not Mormons, who will likely enter the Celestial Kingdom before we do, if we do at all. You could easily be one of them." Did you delete that because you changed your mind about it? I ask because it hits exactly at what lies at the foundation of my questioning. Do you believe that it is possible for me with no assistance from LDS ordinances to practice the presence of God for eternity? People here on the forum have kept asking me "Why do you think we are exclusive and they assure me Mormons can't keep me from heaven. But I do believe that is a bit of a "dodge" on their part. Yes, they can't keep me from the telestial or the terrestial heaven. But those aren't where God will dwell for eternity. Someone said "they (Mormons) can only keep me from Mormonism." That is not my understanding, but I would love to be wrong. What I am calling exclusivity is exclusiveness regarding the presence of God. I cannot enter the presence of God for eternity without having participated in a Mormon ordinance, either in this life or the next. That is the ultimate exclusion and clearly an offense to any true non-Mormon believer in Christ, as I am sure it would be to my Mormon friends if I assured them based on the power and authority of God that Mormons will never live in eternity with God the father unless they are baptized as Mennonites by a Mennonite elder in either this world or the next. I can hear the outrage now - it would be the ultimate anti-Mormonism. I thought when I read your post in my email you might have a different understanding than others here on the forum. But that most likely is not the case.

Navidad · September 2, 2017

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

i don't want to belabor the point, but the early state church certainly did. If you didn't agree with their formula and say it in church, they made you anethema and excommunicated you They believed you weren't saved.. Even in this modern day there are many, many Protestants who do not believe you are Christian if you don't accept the Nicene Creed.

However, like you I don't believe those particular issues are critical to one's salvation. Nevertheless, much of the rest of Christianity certainly seems to think it is. However, I do believe it is critical to following Yeshua and finding the narrow way to the holiest of all. It's hard to know what to do, and what to be, if one doesn't understand at all the nature of God. That is where it becomes critical. It sounds to me like you may not feel that is critical. Perhaps you feel to follow Yeshua is to exalt oneself?

Hi Rev - I don't want to belabor the point either, but I do truly and respectfully think you are not quite correct. Can you point to a single Protestant group today who believes that if you don't recite the Nicene Creed in church you are not a Christian? I am not familiar with any Protestant or Catholic group who would say that. I think, that is part of some LDS myth that has been passed down and taught over the years. It helps validate Mormon's singularity, but it isn't, to my knowledge true. Maybe there is some obscure tiny Orthodox group who might hold to that, but I am unaware of any. Again, let me be clear, I don't know everything so I may be the one who is wrong. This is how I learn. I just have no experience personally with any Christian faith who believes as you indicate. Take care!

RevTestament · September 2, 2017

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi Rev - I don't want to belabor the point either, but I do truly and respectfully think you are not quite correct. Can you point to a single Protestant group today who believes that if you don't recite the Nicene Creed in church you are not a Christian? I am not familiar with any Protestant or Catholic group who would say that. I think, that is part of some LDS myth that has been passed down and taught over the years. It helps validate Mormon's singularity, but it isn't, to my knowledge true. Maybe there is some obscure tiny Orthodox group who might hold to that, but I am unaware of any. Again, let me be clear, I don't know everything so I may be the one who is wrong. This is how I learn. I just have no experience personally with any Christian faith who believes as you indicate. Take care!

Unfortunately, Navidad there are at least members of Protestant groups which feel this way. I have been told I am not Christian if I do not follow the Nicene Creed - particularly by Calvinists. Now, I don't think the Presbyterian Church is going to excommunicate you if you don't recite the Nicene Creed, but there are at least several website forums which won't allow you to post in their "Christian" forum if you do not affirm the Nicene Creed or some other formula. So this type of thing is alive and well. It is definitely not a "LDS myth."

I don't talk about the subject to emphasize any LDS singularity. In fact the Church doesn't really seem to have any doctrine concerning the begotten nature of the Son or what the Bible means when it says "this day I have begotten thee." Brigham Young made some comments about Jesus being begotten naturally - and of course He was born physically of a woman in a very natural way. The Church has made comments about Yeshua being the Father's literal son somehow. I tend to disagree with where that is going though, and I don't feel it can be described as any firm doctrine. I bring up the subject because I feel it is highly relevant to the nature of God. I believe the Son was begotten by the oath of the Father by covenant. I believe the Father literally told our Savior at some point "this day I have begotten thee." The book of Hebrews goes into the best detail about this, but is also in The Acts.

Hebrews 5:

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

So the church has been told these are the first principles of the oracles of God - ie the highest teaching of God. I feel the Nicene Creed simply destroys the oracles by making Christ unbegotten. To the state Church Christ was not begotten, so we can't be begotten either. There is no change - Christ was always the Son before all ages, and God never told Him "this DAY, I have begotten thee." on any world or even in heaven, because to them Christ was always the Son. Do you see the scriptural problem with this claim?

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The scriptures say the Father actually told the Son this, by which he became the Son. He was essentially adopted as the Son. Yet, the scriptures also say he was sent to this world as the Son. This is the great secret Joseph Smith alluded to. But even if you don't agree with Joseph Smith, the scriptures do not lend themselves to the statement in the Nicene Creed at all - and the typical belief of Christians. So, I bring it up to teach what the scriptures do. The Son is a priesthood office of high priests which is held by covenant of the Father. It is just that simple, yet it is not believed. Peace to you.

Meerkat · September 2, 2017

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your post. It resonates with me. You seem to have edited it from the version I got in an email notification. In that email you say, "We are also certain in the area of authority. However, we all know better people than ourselves who are not Mormons, who will likely enter the Celestial Kingdom before we do, if we do at all. You could easily be one of them." Did you delete that because you changed your mind about it? I ask because it hits exactly at what lies at the foundation of my questioning. Do you believe that it is possible for me with no assistance from LDS ordinances to practice the presence of God for eternity? People here on the forum have kept asking me "Why do you think we are exclusive and they assure me Mormons can't keep me from heaven. But I do believe that is a bit of a "dodge" on their part. Yes, they can't keep me from the telestial or the terrestial heaven. But those aren't where God will dwell for eternity. Someone said "they (Mormons) can only keep me from Mormonism." That is not my understanding, but I would love to be wrong. What I am calling exclusivity is exclusiveness regarding the presence of God. I cannot enter the presence of God for eternity without having participated in a Mormon ordinance, either in this life or the next. That is the ultimate exclusion and clearly an offense to any true non-Mormon believer in Christ, as I am sure it would be to my Mormon friends if I assured them based on the power and authority of God that Mormons will never live in eternity with God the father unless they are baptized as Mennonites by a Mennonite elder in either this world or the next. I can hear the outrage now - it would be the ultimate anti-Mormonism. I thought when I read your post in my email you might have a different understanding than others here on the forum. But that most likely is not the case.

I cut the post down because I've noticed mine tend to run long. I'm thinking because of their length, you've skipped my earlier comments. In answer to your questions, my opinions havent changed and I think they are pretty typical Mormon opinions. Well, off to Bumbershoot in Seattle. Will check in later. Have a good one!

Navidad · September 2, 2017

Good Morning all: The purpose of this post is to reply to the several of you who have asked me why I have begun to think of the Mormon faith as an exclusive faith more so than I had before. Many of the posts on this forum in this thread have given me new and different insights into Mormonism than I had before. I asked the question; you have answered. I am a bit disappointed in what I have learned, but that is my problem. I simply was incorrect before. Some of my beliefs about Mormons have been corrected. I appreciate that, but I hope it is ok if I say I am indeed saddened by what I have learned. If I can summarize as quickly as I can; I would certainly value any further input. I will try and do this by restating what I have heard you (collectively) say to me without judgment, debate, or being disagreeable. Some of what I am going to write are general observations; they may not be stated well or with complete accuracy. The other things are my understanding of your doctrine. That certainly needs to be accurate. Thanks in advance for reading this.

1. Philosophically, Mormons appear to me to be dualists. If A is right - then anything not A must be wrong. It is different from saying "I believe A is right - B and C and D might, or probably are also be right, but I prefer A. You believe this because you believe you have, within your doctrine a correct understanding of salvation, God, baptism, eschatology, etc. and believe in your doctrine and therefore believe it is right. It comes from your scriptures and your prophets; therefore it is "right."

2. You draw a parallel because of your mindset that, that is just the way it is with religions or faiths. Each one thinks theirs' is "right" to the exclusion of the others. That view is not really a doctrine, it just makes sense to you. You are no different than any other faith in that regard. You are Mormons, why shouldn't we think Mormon doctrine is correct (see #1).

3. Not only do you believe your doctrine is correct in the sense of #1 but you also believe that it holds the absolute and only key to practicing the presence of God for all eternity. That is the 800 pound critter in your doctrine that separates you from every other faith I know. And it is where I was perhaps most in error. For about ten years now while I have been studying and fellowshipping with Saints I thought they considered themselves as part of, and wanted to be part of the family of Christianity. As in the taxonomy rubric that someone used: Christian first, then LDS, then differentiating for others - not Community of Christ, not Church of the First Born and so on. That is what I thought. After this week I think I am wrong, or I think maybe it is that you are unique in a very specific way from all other Christian groups I know. Christian faith groups have some beliefs and doctrine they hold in common or they wouldn't be Christian. Then some beliefs and doctrine vary but the different groups agree to disagree without that impacting any one particular group's eternal destiny. I for example don't believe in the principles of Calvinism that are in many reformed beliefs. I would never in the world however, say that Calvinists will not spend eternity with God. I disagree with baptismal regeneration, but I would never believe that baptismal regenerationalists wont be in heaven with God, I might not agree with amillenialists about the nature of the millennium, but I would never suggest that would keep them out of heaven, I believe in the sacrament of foot washing, I would never conclude that those who don't wash feet won't be in heaven for eternity with God. I believe in baptism by immersion as a testimony of faith; it would never dawn on me to exclude those who baptize by pouring from eternity with God. I might not agree with Mormons about Godly progression, the pre-existence of spirits, or that the Book of Abraham is scripture, but it would never dawn on me to exclude Mormons from eternity with God. I hope that is enough examples for now. I have never known a Christian group to deny the presence of God for all eternity to another Christian group because of an ordinance or a sacramental difference. I believe all faith groups when they take communion for example, have a meaning in that act. It involves commitments, covenants, and remembering what Christ did for us in his suffering and death. I would never suggest that a Presbyterian doesn't have covenants they are supposed to keep when they take communion. We may as Christians differ in form and method, but we know and acknowledge a mutuality in the meaning - that is what we mean by a Christian family.

4. I know understand better that Mormons are most likely Mormon first and perhaps Christian second - or perhaps have no overt desire to be Christians at all; being Mormon (a LDS member) is enough. Mormons believe so strongly in #1 that they remove the possibility that others will practice the presence of God in eternity without their ordinance, done their way and by their "priests." That is unique in the history of Christianity. In fact Mormons are so strong in this you all have shared with me that you don't even have a place for non-Mormon Christians in your taxonomy. That is a stunning "revelation" to me. I had never thought about that before. That nice guy, Navidad a committed Mennonite Christian, baptized, having had hands laid on him, anointed with oil, having demonstrated sixty years of faithfulness to God is completely out of luck to ever hope to live in the presence of God unless he becomes a Mormon in this life and is baptized by a 19 year old kid who has the very special, unique and only priesthood authority since the New Testament times. The fact that Bishop Don Augsberger, the single most Godly man I have ever known laid hands on me, anointed me and set me aside to ministry is irrelevant. The fact that my own father, inconsistent as he was, baptized me by immersion is irrelevant. No sirree no celestial kingdom for Navidad. Your posts have done a good thing; they have driven me towards Mormon statements, beliefs and teaching. So I found this:

The Gospel Principles Manual:
Celestial
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).
Terrestial
These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father.
Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son.
So let's review: The requirements of living in the celestial kingdom are several, but at a minimum - one must be baptized (I figure that means LDS baptism by a LDS priest) and one must be married in the temple. It opens the door for a subdivision in the Celstial kingdom as well. Those faithful baptized Mormons and those who are married in the temple get an ever higher level of the Celestial Kingdom and may exalt all the way to Godhood. Isn't that what it says? Oh, and this is where God the Father and Jesus will dwell forever. Now the terrestial kingdom - this is where those go who accept the Mormon ordinances done for them in the temple, after they are witnessed to in the spirit world and accept their proxy baptism and endowment. They weren't Mormons in life. AKA - Navidad if I accept the proxy work done on my behalf. I am blinded on earth by the craftiness of Don Augsberger and my dad. Now, Jesus will visit once in a while but I will live for eternity without God. Last - those who weren't Mormon in life and didn't hear or accept the message in the spirit world will burn in hell until the Millenium when they will be resurrected. People like me - oh and we are termed liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. This is the kingdom of the stars. We will be visited by the Holy Ghost, but not by the Father or the Son. Why do I suggest Mormons are exclusive? Read all this last paragraph and what your "Gospel Principles" teach.

Some of you have suggested if I accept the proxy work I might be in the celestial kingdom. That is not what your "Gospel Principles" teaches. Without Mormon ordinances on earth there is no hope for the non-Mormon to spend eternity in the shekinah glory of the Father. That is stunning. Incredibly stunning. That makes you, if you part of the Christian family, which I have insisted to many you are, the only Christian family faith group I have ever known who by virtue of a difference in polity (that is what the ordinances are) ban all others from practicing the presence of God for all eternity.

Did I get anything wrong? Sorry for the extreme length, but this is a complicated thing........Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and interact with me. I really do appreciate it.

Navidad · September 2, 2017

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good Morning all: The purpose of this post is to reply to the several of you who have asked me why I have begun to think of the Mormon faith as an exclusive faith more so than I had before. Many of the posts on this forum in this thread have given me new and different insights into Mormonism than I had before. I asked the question; you have answered. I am a bit disappointed in what I have learned, but that is my problem. I simply was incorrect before. Some of my beliefs about Mormons have been corrected. I appreciate that, but I hope it is ok if I say I am indeed saddened by what I have learned. If I can summarize as quickly as I can; I would certainly value any further input. I will try and do this by restating what I have heard you (collectively) say to me without judgment, debate, or being disagreeable. Some of what I am going to write are general observations; they may not be stated well or with complete accuracy. The other things are my understanding of your doctrine. That certainly needs to be accurate. Thanks in advance for reading this.

1. Philosophically, Mormons appear to me to be dualists. If A is right - then anything not A must be wrong. It is different from saying "I believe A is right - B and C and D might, or probably are also be right, but I prefer A. You believe this because you believe you have, within your doctrine a correct understanding of salvation, God, baptism, eschatology, etc. and believe in your doctrine and therefore believe it is right. It comes from your scriptures and your prophets; therefore it is "right."

2. You draw a parallel because of your mindset that, that is just the way it is with religions or faiths. Each one thinks theirs' is "right" to the exclusion of the others. That view is not really a doctrine, it just makes sense to you. You are no different than any other faith in that regard. You are Mormons, why shouldn't we think Mormon doctrine is correct (see #1).

3. Not only do you believe your doctrine is correct in the sense of #1 but you also believe that it holds the absolute and only key to practicing the presence of God for all eternity. That is the 800 pound critter in your doctrine that separates you from every other faith I know. And it is where I was perhaps most in error. For about ten years now while I have been studying and fellowshipping with Saints I thought they considered themselves as part of, and wanted to be part of the family of Christianity. As in the taxonomy rubric that someone used: Christian first, then LDS, then differentiating for others - not Community of Christ, not Church of the First Born and so on. That is what I thought. After this week I think I am wrong, or I think maybe it is that you are unique in a very specific way from all other Christian groups I know. Christian faith groups have some beliefs and doctrine they hold in common or they wouldn't be Christian. Then some beliefs and doctrine vary but the different groups agree to disagree without that impacting any one particular group's eternal destiny. I for example don't believe in the principles of Calvinism that are in many reformed beliefs. I would never in the world however, say that Calvinists will not spend eternity with God. I disagree with baptismal regeneration, but I would never believe that baptismal regenerationalists wont be in heaven with God, I might not agree with amillenialists about the nature of the millennium, but I would never suggest that would keep them out of heaven, I believe in the sacrament of foot washing, I would never conclude that those who don't wash feet won't be in heaven for eternity with God. I believe in baptism by immersion as a testimony of faith; it would never dawn on me to exclude those who baptize by pouring from eternity with God. I might not agree with Mormons about Godly progression, the pre-existence of spirits, or that the Book of Abraham is scripture, but it would never dawn on me to exclude Mormons from eternity with God. I hope that is enough examples for now. I have never known a Christian group to deny the presence of God for all eternity to another Christian group because of an ordinance or a sacramental difference. I believe all faith groups when they take communion for example, have a meaning in that act. It involves commitments, covenants, and remembering what Christ did for us in his suffering and death. I would never suggest that a Presbyterian doesn't have covenants they are supposed to keep when they take communion. We may as Christians differ in form and method, but we know and acknowledge a mutuality in the meaning - that is what we mean by a Christian family.

4. I know understand better that Mormons are most likely Mormon first and perhaps Christian second - or perhaps have no overt desire to be Christians at all; being Mormon (a LDS member) is enough. Mormons believe so strongly in #1 that they remove the possibility that others will practice the presence of God in eternity without their ordinance, done their way and by their "priests." That is unique in the history of Christianity. In fact Mormons are so strong in this you all have shared with me that you don't even have a place for non-Mormon Christians in your taxonomy. That is a stunning "revelation" to me. I had never thought about that before. That nice guy, Navidad a committed Mennonite Christian, baptized, having had hands laid on him, anointed with oil, having demonstrated sixty years of faithfulness to God is completely out of luck to ever hope to live in the presence of God unless he becomes a Mormon in this life and is baptized by a 19 year old kid who has the very special, unique and only priesthood authority since the New Testament times. The fact that Bishop Don Augsberger, the single most Godly man I have ever known laid hands on me, anointed me and set me aside to ministry is irrelevant. The fact that my own father, inconsistent as he was, baptized me by immersion is irrelevant. No sirree no celestial kingdom for Navidad. Your posts have done a good thing; they have driven me towards Mormon statements, beliefs and teaching. So I found this:

The Gospel Principles Manual:
Celestial
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).
Terrestial
These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father.
Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son.
So let's review: The requirements of living in the celestial kingdom are several, but at a minimum - one must be baptized (I figure that means LDS baptism by a LDS priest) and one must be married in the temple. It opens the door for a subdivision in the Celstial kingdom as well. Those faithful baptized Mormons and those who are married in the temple get an ever higher level of the Celestial Kingdom and may exalt all the way to Godhood. Isn't that what it says? Oh, and this is where God the Father and Jesus will dwell forever. Now the terrestial kingdom - this is where those go who accept the Mormon ordinances done for them in the temple, after they are witnessed to in the spirit world and accept their proxy baptism and endowment. They weren't Mormons in life. AKA - Navidad if I accept the proxy work done on my behalf. I am blinded on earth by the craftiness of Don Augsberger and my dad. Now, Jesus will visit once in a while but I will live for eternity without God. Last - those who weren't Mormon in life and didn't hear or accept the message in the spirit world will burn in hell until the Millenium when they will be resurrected. People like me - oh and we are termed liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. This is the kingdom of the stars. We will be visited by the Holy Ghost, but not by the Father or the Son. Why do I suggest Mormons are exclusive? Read all this last paragraph and what your "Gospel Principles" teach.

Some of you have suggested if I accept the proxy work I might be in the celestial kingdom. That is not what your "Gospel Principles" teaches. Without Mormon ordinances on earth there is no hope for the non-Mormon to spend eternity in the shekinah glory of the Father. That is stunning. Incredibly stunning. That makes you, if you part of the Christian family, which I have insisted to many you are, the only Christian family faith group I have ever known who by virtue of a difference in polity (that is what the ordinances are) ban all others from practicing the presence of God for all eternity.

Did I get anything wrong? Sorry for the extreme length, but this is a complicated thing........Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and interact with me. I really do appreciate it.

I really did try to edit this to make fix some typos and make it clearer, but it wouldn't let me. Sorry for that.

thesometimesaint · September 2, 2017

We are in no position to judge when you have enough knowledge to reject the Restored Gospel, or valiant enough in it. We leave that up to God. We don't believe all those who died before hearing the Restored Gospel will burn in Hell. We believe that all will be given ample opportunity to hear/understand and reject or accept it either in this life or the next. The LDS ordinances must be performed here on earth. They don't have to be accepted in this life. "What soever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven".

Edited September 2, 2017 by thesometimesaint

RevTestament · September 3, 2017

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Good Morning all: The purpose of this post is to reply to the several of you who have asked me why I have begun to think of the Mormon faith as an exclusive faith more so than I had before. Many of the posts on this forum in this thread have given me new and different insights into Mormonism than I had before. I asked the question; you have answered. I am a bit disappointed in what I have learned, but that is my problem. I simply was incorrect before. Some of my beliefs about Mormons have been corrected. I appreciate that, but I hope it is ok if I say I am indeed saddened by what I have learned. If I can summarize as quickly as I can; I would certainly value any further input. I will try and do this by restating what I have heard you (collectively) say to me without judgment, debate, or being disagreeable. Some of what I am going to write are general observations; they may not be stated well or with complete accuracy. The other things are my understanding of your doctrine. That certainly needs to be accurate. Thanks in advance for reading this.

1. Philosophically, Mormons appear to me to be dualists. If A is right - then anything not A must be wrong. It is different from saying "I believe A is right - B and C and D might, or probably are also be right, but I prefer A. You believe this because you believe you have, within your doctrine a correct understanding of salvation, God, baptism, eschatology, etc. and believe in your doctrine and therefore believe it is right. It comes from your scriptures and your prophets; therefore it is "right."

I am sorry LDS Christianity saddens you. When I found the Church, I found the truths about Yeshua going to teach the spirits in prison so that they could be resurrected to be extremely just and inclusive. This was the only Church I felt taught the truths of 1 Peter and Yeshua Himself:

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

What or when is Peter saying the gospel was preached to the dead:

John 5:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

***

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I am going to hazard a reply that we do believe our existence is dualistic in nature:

Moroni 7:12-13

12 Wherefore, all things which are ^agood cometh of God; and that which is ^bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to ^csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do ^agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and ^benticeth to do ^cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is ^dinspired of God.

This doesn't mean that that which is merely good is seen as unworthy - we do recognize that our actions may be good, better or best. All of those things are in the right direction and therefore viewed by God as good or of His teaching. I fall far short of being the best I can be - I have my personal desires which get in the way. But that doesn't mean my so-so mediocre good actions are going to send me to hell. However, that doesn't mean that I should be satisfied with being less than the best I can be. Yeshua expected a lot. However, I think there are many different paths to getting there. The vineyard outside the gate is wide and has many vines. Nevertheless, there is only one gate to the garden.

Quote

I for example don't believe in the principles of Calvinism that are in many reformed beliefs. I would never in the world however, say that Calvinists will not spend eternity with God. I disagree with baptismal regeneration, but I would never believe that baptismal regenerationalists wont be in heaven with God, I might not agree with amillenialists about the nature of the millennium, but I would never suggest that would keep them out of heaven, I believe in the sacrament of foot washing, I would never conclude that those who don't wash feet won't be in heaven for eternity with God. I believe in baptism by immersion as a testimony of faith; it would never dawn on me to exclude those who baptize by pouring from eternity with God. I might not agree with Mormons about Godly progression, the pre-existence of spirits, or that the Book of Abraham is scripture, but it would never dawn on me to exclude Mormons from eternity with God. I hope that is enough examples for now. I have never known a Christian group to deny the presence of God for all eternity to another Christian group because of an ordinance or a sacramental difference.

I don't see any of these groups excluded either. I am not their judge. I am powerless to exclude them. However, our Savior can exclude them. He is their judge. I am bound to love them - to share the good news of the gospel for them and their deceased relatives.

Quote

I believe all faith groups when they take communion for example, have a meaning in that act. It involves commitments, covenants, and remembering what Christ did for us in his suffering and death. I would never suggest that a Presbyterian doesn't have covenants they are supposed to keep when they take communion. We may as Christians differ in form and method, but we know and acknowledge a mutuality in the meaning - that is what we mean by a Christian family.

I don't define Christianity by ordinances but by following the most basic tenets of the gospel: Belief in our Savior Yeshua, repentance and belief in the resurrection. For me whether someone has received a specific ordinance doesn't define whether they are Christian or not.

Quote

4. I know understand better that Mormons are most likely Mormon first and perhaps Christian second - or perhaps have no overt desire to be Christians at all; being Mormon (a LDS member) is enough. ***

Did I get anything wrong? Sorry for the extreme length, but this is a complicated thing........Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and interact with me. I really do appreciate it.

To be frank this is one reason why I think of myself as LDS Christian and not "Mormon." I follow Christ - not Mormon. Mormon is a label chosen by those deeming us outside their realm of Christianity. I am Christian first, and follow The Way. If others choose not to follow that way, I don't stop thinking of them as Christian. I think the Church went through a phase where it really wanted to be accepted by other mainstream sects as Christian, but ultimately I realize that won't happen. There will be a complete separation between the world and the Church, because the world is going where the Church cannot go. Again, I wish you peace Navidad, and wish to thank you for the interest you show in the Church of Jesus Christ. I testify that the gospel as restored is true and is the means for the salvation of mankind. I wish peace to you in our Savior, Jesus Christ.

mfbukowski · September 3, 2017

12 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your post. It resonates with me. You seem to have edited it from the version I got in an email notification. In that email you say, "We are also certain in the area of authority. However, we all know better people than ourselves who are not Mormons, who will likely enter the Celestial Kingdom before we do, if we do at all. You could easily be one of them." Did you delete that because you changed your mind about it? I ask because it hits exactly at what lies at the foundation of my questioning. Do you believe that it is possible for me with no assistance from LDS ordinances to practice the presence of God for eternity? People here on the forum have kept asking me "Why do you think we are exclusive and they assure me Mormons can't keep me from heaven. But I do believe that is a bit of a "dodge" on their part. Yes, they can't keep me from the telestial or the terrestial heaven. But those aren't where God will dwell for eternity. Someone said "they (Mormons) can only keep me from Mormonism." That is not my understanding, but I would love to be wrong. What I am calling exclusivity is exclusiveness regarding the presence of God. I cannot enter the presence of God for eternity without having participated in a Mormon ordinance, either in this life or the next. That is the ultimate exclusion and clearly an offense to any true non-Mormon believer in Christ, as I am sure it would be to my Mormon friends if I assured them based on the power and authority of God that Mormons will never live in eternity with God the father unless they are baptized as Mennonites by a Mennonite elder in either this world or the next. I can hear the outrage now - it would be the ultimate anti-Mormonism. I thought when I read your post in my email you might have a different understanding than others here on the forum. But that most likely is not the case.

What you are not understanding is that those ordinances are not "Mormon Ordinances" , they are ordinances you will recognize come from God IF you CHOOSE to receive them, knowing an infinity more than you know now

The presumption is that YOU yourself will understand the validity of the steps needed and they will be no more "Mormon" Ordinances but YOUR ordinances.

It's like saying that you are subject to "Mormon Gravity"- that is not the case obviously- in this world things fall and everyone knows that. It is not "Mormon Gravity" it is gravity- just the way the world works- it is a plain fact that certain steps are required

We believe that everyone will voluntarily see that we are correct. It will not be imposed upon anyone, it will be clear as day on the other side

And still you have the problem - I think- of not understanding that the Mennonite way is in some way "better"

What I see you saying is that to be saved everyone will have to be Mennonite and give up our notion of authority in baptism, that it is nice to be peaceful but sometimes armed force is necessary, and to take up pacifism

That to me is just as wrong as what you think we want you to do- partake of Mormon ordinances.

We think you are wrong and we are right, yes, but you refuse to acknowledge that YOU think YOU are right just as much as we think we are right.

You believe simplicity is the "better way". I do not. And if someone comes after my family, I will shoot if I think that it is the only way to stop them and that God will see it my way as well.

I refuse to be forced to live your way, as much as you refuse to be forced to accept my ordinances, but you do not see it that way

You only see it one way- your way.

Meerkat · September 3, 2017

Hi Navidad--

I'd like to address a few of your comments:

1. The Latter Day Saints do welcome other religions into the family of Christianity. Our faith does not shut others out. God has made it clear that all are invited. At some point, they will need to accept the ordinances by proper authority that even Jesus Christ required of Himself "to fulfill all righteousness," as He informed John in Matthew 3:15.

2. You said "Some beliefs and doctrine vary but the different groups agree to disagree without that impacting any one particular group's eternal destiny."

This is what you are not considering: Heavenly Father is very organized. That should be a self evident fact. Look in the mirror. Look at the stars in the sky. God is not the author of confusion. But you know that, right? Hence the need for authority to act in His name. Christians do vary on beliefs and doctrines, as you said. That is why today, as anciently, God speaks through a living prophet to the Church, and through the Holy Ghost individually.

3. You said "I might not agree with Mormons about Godly progression, the pre-existence of spirits, or that the Book of Abraham is scripture, but it would never dawn on me to exclude Mormons from eternity with God."

It's not up to you or me to include or exclude anyone from eternity with God. It is frustrating to see so many people who do care for you explain their heart felt feelings and have you ignore what they have said and restate your complaints about what we believe. It is God's Church and authority we are talking about. It is His to give or withhold. If you believe you have it, Lord bless you. If you are not confident that you do, then pray for God to help you find it.

Bishop Augsberger, your father and you are great men, most likely better than many Latter-day Saints. Mormons are not judging you or telling you where you will or will not be going in eternity. We are telling you what we believe. Navidad, you are making this too complicated. Read the Book of Mormon and pray to know if it is true. The Apostle Paul said "14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." We have never asked you to take our word for it. Take it to God. He will answer.

4. You give us a litany of your concerns that I suppose you want us to address. From what I can see, you do not acknowledge the answers we give, but appear to me to overlook them, twist them and double down on why we are wrong from your perspective. We are not telling you why you are wrong. We are explaining how our faith is inclusive to you and others to the greatest degree.

5. I don't doubt that Bishop Augsburger, your Dad and you are godly men, more godly than me. What gives me encouragement for you, them and my family is the scripture Doctrine and Covenants 138. That is where our prophet Joseph F. Smith was pondering 1 Peter 3:18-20, which states: "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

He also wondered about 1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." While he was thus pondering, the heavens opened up to him and he received a revelation:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
           32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
           33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
           34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
           35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross."

Your strong feelings at the end of your post make sense to me only if you ignore these scriptures. Please consider them and what mfbukowski and so many others have tried to express to you.

Sincerely,

Meerkat

Meerkat · September 3, 2017

21 hours ago, Navidad said:

Last - those who weren't Mormon in life and didn't hear or accept the message in the spirit world will burn in hell until the Millenium when they will be resurrected. People like me - oh and we are termed liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers.

I'm thinking this is emotional hyperbole. It can happen to anyone. I think burning in hell is reserved for the sons of perdition, as far as I've read. Even then, that's an area we don't know much about. I think you missed something in the liars, adulterers, etc. part. That was reserved for those who didn't accept the testimony of Jesus here or in the spirit world. You have, so I don't believe that part applies to you. But you may be right about the terrestrial kingdom. You have studied so much, you may be accountable for what you know and reject in this life. Otherwise there is still hope in the Spirit world for all, according to Peter and latter day prophets.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

14 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I am sorry LDS Christianity saddens you. When I found the Church, I found the truths about Yeshua going to teach the spirits in prison so that they could be resurrected to be extremely just and inclusive. This was the only Church I felt taught the truths of 1 Peter and Yeshua Himself:

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

What or when is Peter saying the gospel was preached to the dead:

John 5:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

***

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I am going to hazard a reply that we do believe our existence is dualistic in nature:

Moroni 7:12-13

12 Wherefore, all things which are ^agood cometh of God; and that which is ^bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to ^csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do ^agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and ^benticeth to do ^cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is ^dinspired of God.

This doesn't mean that that which is merely good is seen as unworthy - we do recognize that our actions may be good, better or best. All of those things are in the right direction and therefore viewed by God as good or of His teaching. I fall far short of being the best I can be - I have my personal desires which get in the way. But that doesn't mean my so-so mediocre good actions are going to send me to hell. However, that doesn't mean that I should be satisfied with being less than the best I can be. Yeshua expected a lot. However, I think there are many different paths to getting there. The vineyard outside the gate is wide and has many vines. Nevertheless, there is only one gate to the garden.

I don't see any of these groups excluded either. I am not their judge. I am powerless to exclude them. However, our Savior can exclude them. He is their judge. I am bound to love them - to share the good news of the gospel for them and their deceased relatives.

I don't define Christianity by ordinances but by following the most basic tenets of the gospel: Belief in our Savior Yeshua, repentance and belief in the resurrection. For me whether someone has received a specific ordinance doesn't define whether they are Christian or not.

To be frank this is one reason why I think of myself as LDS Christian and not "Mormon." I follow Christ - not Mormon. Mormon is a label chosen by those deeming us outside their realm of Christianity. I am Christian first, and follow The Way. If others choose not to follow that way, I don't stop thinking of them as Christian. I think the Church went through a phase where it really wanted to be accepted by other mainstream sects as Christian, but ultimately I realize that won't happen. There will be a complete separation between the world and the Church, because the world is going where the Church cannot go. Again, I wish you peace Navidad, and wish to thank you for the interest you show in the Church of Jesus Christ. I testify that the gospel as restored is true and is the means for the salvation of mankind. I wish peace to you in our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I only use the word Mormon because the Church website authorizes it to be used as a valid descriptive word for members of the LDS Church. I mean nothing negative by its use. I also don't want to debate what Peter meant by this, or what Paul meant by that, or about the Pearl of Great Price. I don't think any of that is helpful. I am here to listen and to learn. Part of that is reflecting back what I don't understand. I may have a blind spot (as in the Johari window), but I don't believe I have said in any of my zillions of words in posts here, that I believe any one specific Mormon doctrine is "wrong." That would not be productive to a conversation. I will clearly state that the LDS doctrines with which I personally have the greatest struggle is the priesthood authority/baptism/ordinance belief, and the Great Apostasy belief. It seems that Saints have moderated their view on the latter, but the former is a biggie to me. I struggle, and I think I am beyond the point of frustrating some of you (so I am going to abandon my quest for more knowledge after today) with how you can say "I am not their judge" when you so clearly (to me, at least) judge our eternal destiny through the lens of your singular priesthood authority. One of you have labelled that a "plain fact!: That is offensive, it is saying "How can you be so stupid, so ignorant that you don't see plain facts!" It is judgmental. I can not and will not debate what someone will do in the spirit world or in eternity. We have no "facts" about any of that. We have faith. I am happy and content in and with my faith.

Perhaps one point that I haven't made clear in my plethora of words is that I am trying to understand Mormonism better, not because I have a desire to convert or any dissatisfaction with my own faith. The reason I am trying to learn is twofold: 1. I have a strong need in my life to learn and to understand; 2. I defend and advocate for Mormonism quite a bit in my speaking and sphere of influence. In so doing, I want to make sure I represent Mormonism well. You are obviously a good man, but you may not be invited to speak where I speak; folks may not read your books who will read mine. I want to make sure I understand as well as I can so I don't misrepresent you or your beliefs. I have found out through these discussions that I have been wrong about some things. Take care and have a blessed Sabbath.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

On 9/1/2017 at 9:49 PM, pogi said:

If you are wrong, what difference does your point make? Because your opinion, your empty inclusivity, and false presumptions won't really have any validity in the end, will they? If you are right, then I am included aparently, so no worries!

First of all, it is not about what I think or you think in the end. It is not me, or any other Mormon, who is being inclusive or exclusive of anyone...we are not your judge. I can't keep you out of heaven even if I wanted to, so what are we excluding you from exactly? As if you or I really have a say!

I don't understand why you think what you are doing is any different. You think that my belief that baptism is required for exaltation is invalid don't you? You don't really accept that do you? We obviously can't both be right on that point. I accept your perspective, how could I not...it is yours after all, not mine.

Proper authority and order makes sense in binding covenants and contracts. It makes sense in the secular world and it makes sense in the spiritual world as well. We are not asking you to take our word for it.

No sir, I don't think your "belief that baptism is required for exaltation is invalid" It differs from my belief. That doesn't make either you or me wrong. I simply want to make sure I understand your belief and that the distinction is more important than a disagreement between Protestants over the mode of baptism. This distinction we are discussing has eternal consequences. That makes it extremely important. You say, We obviously can't both be right on that point." I agree with that; but neither of us have any proof, any evidence to put forth in defense of our beliefs. To use a British term we "faith" it.

Yes, you are asking me to take your word for it. That is clear. I am not asking you to take my word for anything. I have already said several times in my posts, I simply don't have the assurance that you do, that my way is the only correct way. In fact I don't believe that about baptism; its necessity, its form, or the authority of the one who performs it. Since my belief is that it is a testimony and your belief is that it has both salvific and eternal consequences, obviously you place a greater emphasis on its importance. I understand that.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

On 8/31/2017 at 3:01 PM, mapman said:

I'm sorry if anything I said upset you. I appreciate your efforts at dialogue and defense of Mormons. I'm sure it is something that has born good fruits. I think I can speak for most Mormons by saying that we appreciate it when other Christians defend our being categorized as Christians. It is very frustrating when people think we don't believe in Jesus or in the Bible because they were told we aren't Christians.

I'd also just say that I was trying to articulate what I understand our doctrine to be, and that there could potentially be room in Mormon theology for developing a closer identity to the Christian religion as a whole. I don't know that it would ever happen or that it would be what God wants, but who knows what the future holds.

Thanks for the post. I don't know if it is encouraging to you, or not but I believe that more and more evangelicals recognize Mormon beliefs in Jesus and the Bible to be compatible with Christianity. Millet and Robinson have had a lot to do with that from the Mormon side of things. Many respected evangelicals are also writing similar things. I personally believe as well that it is the LDS belief in the great apostasy and in sole priesthood authority related to the ordinances, that in this day and age many evangelicals find offensive. Almost every other post in reply to my posts assures me that Mormons are not judgmental or exclusive. I can only say those two doctrines are both, from the perspective of an evangelical. That doesn't make them wrong - neither does winning a debate on a stage about them make them wrong, neither does a contest of who knows more proof texts make them right or wrong. For now, we base our beliefs on faith. Often, over time those beliefs change for a variety of reasons; some spiritual some otherwise.

I would guess many Mormons don't know this, but there was a time when Mennonites practiced polygamy, when they were pentecostal (spoke in tongues and interpreted - some still do), they lived in a theocracy in Germany. Our histories have many common elements including that of persecution. But both our faiths have changed over time. They will continue to change.

thesometimesaint · September 3, 2017

If I put on a policeman's uniform, strapped on a gun, and went around trying to arrest people does that make me an authorized policeman?

Navidad · September 3, 2017

On 9/1/2017 at 0:58 AM, SamIam said:

This is such a broad subject that surely there will be much I completely overlook. To your concerns about variable answers, I try not to share opinions but will generally attach my material to credible sources to give it a bit more sustainment. As well I tend to being very straightforward so please do not mistake candor for anything other than seeking clarity without ambiguity. Surely one element you will run into will be the mentality of the individual. One may say that we feel without the ordinances that they cannot attain the highest possibilities and another may focus on that we appreciate whatever testimony of Christ they have and only seek to expand upon that to enable the greatest blessings. Kind of the same thing but one comes from a cannot perspective while the second is a can perspective.

One thing you may notice is that while there are differences of perspective, the leadership has a preference for our response to nonmembers. If I was asking your question I would rather be aware of what is the council those who Shepard provide versus to observations of those who may be in greater need of that Shepherding. One such bit of insight is provided by an insightful leader from some years ago:

OF course, most often I have observed some of this behavior more in Utah than other locations I have lived and so again answers or observations you may make will hopefully be appreciative of this fact. However, that is not to say that some of the greatest members I have ever known are also found in Utah as well.

Now if we change the perspective a little it also provides insight. In this instance I provide an answer published in a church publication which is responding to the question of an young person who claims there are no members in their area to date would it be okay to date nonmembers? This provides some of the practical considerations that are consistent with the majority of LDS desires for their children as it relates to nonmember relationships:

Of course the goal here is not to discuss dating but to extrapolate from this basic principle some real perceptions of the concerns one might find about a non-member relationship developing with a young member. We do genuinely feel that from the practical side of what we can predict that a marriage between members is preferred as this allows the couple to progress in the gospel at a pace not affected by one not sharing a sense of earnest desire concerning the church. It is a very real concern that by marrying a non-member our children are putting at risk their potential for family association in the hereafter. OF course we often see where there are occasions where a nonmember subsequently joins and that is an exciting time as well.

Again, another perspective is provided when we let the previous situation develop to the point of a mixed marriage. Once the horse is out of the barn so to speak, it is no longer a discussion about looking for religiously compatible partners but now becomes one of making the best of the split family:

This response is published in the Ensign but it represent the insight of a, I believe, lay member in the church. If nothing else it illustrates that we want to respect the rights of the nonmember partner making them feel loved and appreciated without be stifled. Of course we have no objections if we can win them over to membership either but we do try to allow the nonmember to be who and what they wish to be relative to the church.

So in the process of exploring, one decides to attend a traditional sacrament setting. One thing is that there will be a period of a few minutes where the sacrament is passed. Members have as many responses as members to this situation when the sacrament is passed to a non-member. On a rare occasion someone may be excessively protective and try to limit a nonmember from partaking. This is not common but again here is a quote illustrating the leaderships perspective:

The essence of the LDS perspective is that baptism is not efficacious unless it is performed by one holding the priesthood. Thus whether or not you have been baptized elsewhere for us it is not of force as an official commitment with God and his Son. So it serves little purpose for a nonmember to partake having never made the covenants that an LDS baptism entails. The sacrament prayers are a good resource to learn what those covenants are and these covenants are to be renewed weekly by membership. It is a very important and sacred ordinance for us.

Another extrapolation can be made from these comments made about temple marriage concerning those who seek opportunities for temple ordinances and such when there is a nonmember situation at hand :

This makes several implications. WE firmly believe that there are ordinances that a couple must partake of as a couple in the temple. The ordinances are preparatory to binding a family and children together so that they can remain a family in the eternities. They are able to prepare to for additional blessings which allow them the greatest blessing of all to dwell where God dwells. We believe that no non-member can ever have such blessings if they refuse the gospel. They cannot be sealed to their families, they will not have their children or wives in the eternities. These issues may cause hard feelings as nonmember spouses will not be able to attend the weddings of their children if they should elect to marry in the temple. You can probably guess that can create bitter feelings.

There is so much more that could be said but I am just trying to cover a couple of things and hope it is of benefit. I am not one for unsubstantiated opinions and I think your question is not best served by such. If you have particular questions on doctrine I maintain thousands of quotes on such for my own research use that if can be helpful I am happy to provide.

Thank you. Your post is very thorough and helpful. I wonder if it is in reality always the case that when a Mormon and a non-Mormon are together the Mormon exclusively has the higher standards and the greater testimony? I ask this tongue in cheek. I think you and I would agree the answer is no. I often go to parties here in our little town where Mormons are present. I can assure you the Word of Wisdom is not always followed on their side of the table ! Ha! Please, I say that in truth, but in jest as well.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I am sorry LDS Christianity saddens you. When I found the Church, I found the truths about Yeshua going to teach the spirits in prison so that they could be resurrected to be extremely just and inclusive. This was the only Church I felt taught the truths of 1 Peter and Yeshua Himself:

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

What or when is Peter saying the gospel was preached to the dead:

John 5:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

***

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I am going to hazard a reply that we do believe our existence is dualistic in nature:

Moroni 7:12-13

12 Wherefore, all things which are ^agood cometh of God; and that which is ^bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to ^csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do ^agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and ^benticeth to do ^cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is ^dinspired of God.

This doesn't mean that that which is merely good is seen as unworthy - we do recognize that our actions may be good, better or best. All of those things are in the right direction and therefore viewed by God as good or of His teaching. I fall far short of being the best I can be - I have my personal desires which get in the way. But that doesn't mean my so-so mediocre good actions are going to send me to hell. However, that doesn't mean that I should be satisfied with being less than the best I can be. Yeshua expected a lot. However, I think there are many different paths to getting there. The vineyard outside the gate is wide and has many vines. Nevertheless, there is only one gate to the garden.

I don't see any of these groups excluded either. I am not their judge. I am powerless to exclude them. However, our Savior can exclude them. He is their judge. I am bound to love them - to share the good news of the gospel for them and their deceased relatives.

I don't define Christianity by ordinances but by following the most basic tenets of the gospel: Belief in our Savior Yeshua, repentance and belief in the resurrection. For me whether someone has received a specific ordinance doesn't define whether they are Christian or not.

To be frank this is one reason why I think of myself as LDS Christian and not "Mormon." I follow Christ - not Mormon. Mormon is a label chosen by those deeming us outside their realm of Christianity. I am Christian first, and follow The Way. If others choose not to follow that way, I don't stop thinking of them as Christian. I think the Church went through a phase where it really wanted to be accepted by other mainstream sects as Christian, but ultimately I realize that won't happen. There will be a complete separation between the world and the Church, because the world is going where the Church cannot go. Again, I wish you peace Navidad, and wish to thank you for the interest you show in the Church of Jesus Christ. I testify that the gospel as restored is true and is the means for the salvation of mankind. I wish peace to you in our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your reply. I found it very helpful. My only comment is to simply suggest that the non-Mormon Christian community is not the "world." Please understand that many of us in that community are just as concerned as are Mormons with avoiding "the things of the world" as we state it. Our own Word of Wisdom reflects that. There should be a complete separation between the "world and the Church." I would simply suggest that other Christian mainstream communities are not part of that "world."

Navidad · September 3, 2017

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What you are not understanding is that those ordinances are not "Mormon Ordinances" , they are ordinances you will recognize come from God IF you CHOOSE to receive them, knowing an infinity more than you know now

The presumption is that YOU yourself will understand the validity of the steps needed and they will be no more "Mormon" Ordinances but YOUR ordinances.

It's like saying that you are subject to "Mormon Gravity"- that is not the case obviously- in this world things fall and everyone knows that. It is not "Mormon Gravity" it is gravity- just the way the world works- it is a plain fact that certain steps are required

We believe that everyone will voluntarily see that we are correct. It will not be imposed upon anyone, it will be clear as day on the other side

And still you have the problem - I think- of not understanding that the Mennonite way is in some way "better"

What I see you saying is that to be saved everyone will have to be Mennonite and give up our notion of authority in baptism, that it is nice to be peaceful but sometimes armed force is necessary, and to take up pacifism

That to me is just as wrong as what you think we want you to do- partake of Mormon ordinances.

We think you are wrong and we are right, yes, but you refuse to acknowledge that YOU think YOU are right just as much as we think we are right.

You believe simplicity is the "better way". I do not. And if someone comes after my family, I will shoot if I think that it is the only way to stop them and that God will see it my way as well.

I refuse to be forced to live your way, as much as you refuse to be forced to accept my ordinances, but you do not see it that way

You only see it one way- your way.

I guess we will disagree about "those ordinances" They are Mormon ordinances; they only appear in Mormon scriptures, nowhere else. As much as you want to put the words in my mouth, or better yet, in my keyboard, I am not saying they are wrong. I really don't know. What I do know is that I have read the Book of Mormon on a number of occasions. I have the Mormon Scripture app on my phone and read all the Mormon scriptures whenever time and place allows. I have prayed. I have sought greater understanding. I know when the Holy Spirit speaks to me; after a life of sixty years in the faith, I understand when God speaks to me. He hasn't on this particular issue. Not yet, at least.

I reject your comparison of your beliefs to gravity; I also find it very interesting. Your confidence that "everyone will voluntarily see that we are correct" is admirable; it also is exclusive. I don't see how you can both at the same have such confidence that all the world will one day come to the conclusion that you and only you are correct and not acknowledge the exclusivity of that. It is like believing in gravity, but denying the danger of jumping off a rooftop. A dislike for exclusivity is a core tenet of my faith. That may be why I focus on it so much.

Very important, my comment to you about Mennonite baptism/ordinances was clearly said TIC - "tongue in cheek." I certainly didn't mean it to be the truth. I was simply trying to make a comparison. BTW I don't know if you know that Mennonites had a time in their history where they practiced theocracy, polygamy and Pentecostal charismatic gifts (some still are charismatic). When you add our persecution narrative, you have quite a bit of commonality.

You would have to study the Mennonite doctrine of simplicity to understand it. It is much more complex than you are making it. It is our Word of Wisdom; please don't make light of it. I don't know you, but I am pretty sure you live your life in a "simple" way that is pretty comparable to the Mennonite meaning. It is not "simple simon." It is not easy. Living the simple life means tithing, not accumulating the world's goods, not valuing wealth, and on and on and on. You sound angry in this last message. I am sorry I have said or done something that offended you. The simplicity of my life would enable me to answer 12 of the 14, or 13 of the 15, depending on the list temple recommend question list in the affirmative.

I feel like we have lost something in this last exchange. I am sorry.

thesometimesaint · September 3, 2017

Christianity is exclusive, but the price of admission from the LDS is easy to bear. Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Hi Navidad--

I'd like to address a few of your comments:

1. The Latter Day Saints do welcome other religions into the family of Christianity. Our faith does not shut others out. God has made it clear that all are invited. At some point, they will need to accept the ordinances by proper authority that even Jesus Christ required of Himself "to fulfill all righteousness," as He informed John in Matthew 3:15.

2. You said "Some beliefs and doctrine vary but the different groups agree to disagree without that impacting any one particular group's eternal destiny."

This is what you are not considering: Heavenly Father is very organized. That should be a self evident fact. Look in the mirror. Look at the stars in the sky. God is not the author of confusion. But you know that, right? Hence the need for authority to act in His name. Christians do vary on beliefs and doctrines, as you said. That is why today, as anciently, God speaks through a living prophet to the Church, and through the Holy Ghost individually.

3. You said "I might not agree with Mormons about Godly progression, the pre-existence of spirits, or that the Book of Abraham is scripture, but it would never dawn on me to exclude Mormons from eternity with God."

It's not up to you or me to include or exclude anyone from eternity with God. It is frustrating to see so many people who do care for you explain their heart felt feelings and have you ignore what they have said and restate your complaints about what we believe. It is God's Church and authority we are talking about. It is His to give or withhold. If you believe you have it, Lord bless you. If you are not confident that you do, then pray for God to help you find it.

Bishop Augsberger, your father and you are great men, most likely better than many Latter-day Saints. Mormons are not judging you or telling you where you will or will not be going in eternity. We are telling you what we believe. Navidad, you are making this too complicated. Read the Book of Mormon and pray to know if it is true. The Apostle Paul said "14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." We have never asked you to take our word for it. Take it to God. He will answer.

4. You give us a litany of your concerns that I suppose you want us to address. From what I can see, you do not acknowledge the answers we give, but appear to me to overlook them, twist them and double down on why we are wrong from your perspective. We are not telling you why you are wrong. We are explaining how our faith is inclusive to you and others to the greatest degree.

5. I don't doubt that Bishop Augsburger, your Dad and you are godly men, more godly than me. What gives me encouragement for you, them and my family is the scripture Doctrine and Covenants 138. That is where our prophet Joseph F. Smith was pondering 1 Peter 3:18-20, which states: "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

He also wondered about 1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." While he was thus pondering, the heavens opened up to him and he received a revelation:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
           32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
           33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
           34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
           35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross."

Your strong feelings at the end of your post make sense to me only if you ignore these scriptures. Please consider them and what mfbukowski and so many others have tried to express to you.

Sincerely,

Meerkat

Thanks again for the spirit of your post. I wish we could sit down sometime and chat. Posting and replying is very monological. It does not promote understanding at times. You are kindly critical of my continuing to ask about what I don't yet understand. I realize that must be frustrating, but it does not come from stubbornness. I truly do not understand (and I am trying by asking or stating the same thing over and over) how Saints can one the one hand say that no non-Mormon Christian will ever dwell for eternity in the presence of God without accepting what is exclusively a Mormon belief about baptism, or perhaps more so, about authority and at the same time say that isn't exclusive. Your whole belief that Mennonites might be in the celestial kingdom is based on them accepting in this life or the spirit life a proxy baptism done by Mormons, not by Presbyterians. I am not saying your belief is wrong. I simply don't know. To me it is not a "plain fact" as someone has said. I am not saying you should change your belief. I am saying that you might simply acknowledge it as a belief that is exclusive to Mormons - no other Christian group believes this. Not one. And also acknowledge it as exclusive in the sense that it denies non-Mormon Christians eternity with the Father, even if they accept the ordinance after death. Your Gospel Principles book makes that clear.

I can see the eyes rolling now. I am sorry, but at least I keep coming back to this one thing - I might also add the Great Apostasy but I am assured by some on the forum that the Mormon belief about the great apostasy has changed and is now more in line with a view of a partial apostasy. Evangelicals would be completely in accord with that new modified belief.

Anyway, I think it is not productive nor promoting of fellowship to continue the discussion. I can't cut it off; but I can simply fade into the background of the forum and stick to my favorite movie and whether Christians should pray for things. Thank you for your posts. I don't mean to be ignoring either your answers or scriptures. If I don't understand your answers, may I not ask again? And I think Mormons acknowledge that scriptural interpretations is complicated. Hermeneutics is in fact very challenging. People read the same scriptures and come to many different conclusions: yes, even Mormons do that among themselves - hence the temple prayer debate of another thread. Rightly dividing the word of truth (II Tim. 2:15) is not easy. Joseph Smith brought in Hebrew scholars to teach his leaders Hebrew. I studied six years of Koine Greek to better understand scriptures. Hundreds of commentaries have been written, yet good, caring, and yes Christian people continue to interpret scriptures differently.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm thinking this is emotional hyperbole. It can happen to anyone. I think burning in hell is reserved for the sons of perdition, as far as I've read. Even then, that's an area we don't know much about. I think you missed something in the liars, adulterers, etc. part. That was reserved for those who didn't accept the testimony of Jesus here or in the spirit world. You have, so I don't believe that part applies to you. But you may be right about the terrestrial kingdom. You have studied so much, you may be accountable for what you know and reject in this life. Otherwise there is still hope in the Spirit world for all, according to Peter and latter day prophets.

Hi: I simply quoted from the Book of Gospel Principles verbatim. It was pretty rugged in its terminology. It also presented a very different perspective on eternity from what a number here have said in reply to me. At least, that is my understanding.

Navidad · September 3, 2017

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

If I put on a policeman's uniform, strapped on a gun, and went around trying to arrest people does that make me an authorized policeman?

I am not sure I know what you are getting at but my responses is this - I have put on the righteousness of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross and his resurrection. As his child he has given me the priesthood. So now based on his love, actions, and sacrifice for me I have been given the priesthood as has every other of his children. Christ was given all authority under heaven and earth and has granted it to all of his children. So I guess to use your metaphor, that makes me an authorized priest, as it does every Mormon who accepts the atonement of Jesus Christ, and every Methodist, and every Catholic and on and on. I can approach the father needing no other human intermediary to petition Him and to worship Him.

thesometimesaint · September 3, 2017

We don't believe in the Priesthood of all Believers and neither did Christ. But he does extend the call to all to join his Church.

mfbukowski · September 3, 2017

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I guess we will disagree about "those ordinances" They are Mormon ordinances; they only appear in Mormon scriptures, nowhere else. As much as you want to put the words in my mouth, or better yet, in my keyboard, I am not saying they are wrong. I really don't know. What I do know is that I have read the Book of Mormon on a number of occasions. I have the Mormon Scripture app on my phone and read all the Mormon scriptures whenever time and place allows. I have prayed. I have sought greater understanding. I know when the Holy Spirit speaks to me; after a life of sixty years in the faith, I understand when God speaks to me. He hasn't on this particular issue. Not yet, at least.

I reject your comparison of your beliefs to gravity; I also find it very interesting. Your confidence that "everyone will voluntarily see that we are correct" is admirable; it also is exclusive. I don't see how you can both at the same have such confidence that all the world will one day come to the conclusion that you and only you are correct and not acknowledge the exclusivity of that. It is like believing in gravity, but denying the danger of jumping off a rooftop. A dislike for exclusivity is a core tenet of my faith. That may be why I focus on it so much.

Very important, my comment to you about Mennonite baptism/ordinances was clearly said TIC - "tongue in cheek." I certainly didn't mean it to be the truth. I was simply trying to make a comparison. BTW I don't know if you know that Mennonites had a time in their history where they practiced theocracy, polygamy and Pentecostal charismatic gifts (some still are charismatic). When you add our persecution narrative, you have quite a bit of commonality.

You would have to study the Mennonite doctrine of simplicity to understand it. It is much more complex than you are making it. It is our Word of Wisdom; please don't make light of it. I don't know you, but I am pretty sure you live your life in a "simple" way that is pretty comparable to the Mennonite meaning. It is not "simple simon." It is not easy. Living the simple life means tithing, not accumulating the world's goods, not valuing wealth, and on and on and on. You sound angry in this last message. I am sorry I have said or done something that offended you. The simplicity of my life would enable me to answer 12 of the 14, or 13 of the 15, depending on the list temple recommend question list in the affirmative.

I feel like we have lost something in this last exchange. I am sorry.

Well I am sorry if that has happened, I have not felt that. I was probably too gruff and I apologize for that, it is a great weakness that I have, I have a huge ego and it is hard for me to control it.

When all we have is text and we don't know each other, it is impossible to tell if one is "tongue in cheek" or not.

At last I understand that you go by the spirit just as I do, and I firmly believe that you have been called to your path as a Mennonite. I think it is where God wants you, and I think that Mormonism is where God wants me.

But I do believe in "exclusivity". I believe there are many true paths to God, but in the end they all lead to one place. And I am willing to say, and I think that Mormons also believe, that there is no "church" in the afterlife. There is, I am sure, organization directly under God's direction which will make all of us adjust our doctrinal sensibilities to some degree or other.

So "All roads lead to ....." - what exactly?

I think we cannot know that completely here. Here we "see through a mirror darkly" and there "face to face"

So we agree that the only "proof" we have is that we have a testimony of following Christ. That is good and an important point in resolving our apparent "disagreement" which I am sure is a semantic confusion at it's source. Wittgenstein taught me that one.

Regarding exclusivity, how about this scripture in the Bible, which we both accept? Please show me how this does NOT point with "exclusivity" to the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And on the other hand, does this reflect that exclusivity is "good" or "bad". Is it unfair to Zoroastrians and Buddhists?

What of the difference between Mormons and Mennonites? (You know that this is ironic because in the world many many people think Mormons and Mennonites are the same... )

I think that right now you and I are at the crux of the meaning of this scripture. How does "letting each esteem other better than themselves" agree with "every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"?

And if your testimony and mine and a Zoroastrian's testimony disagree, how does that fit with this scripture? So what about "exclusivity" UNLESS we are all to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling"?

Suppose we are each of us to find our own path that suits each of us? But what if that path is not Christian? And all we have is testimony as a tool?

Quote

Philippians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

²Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

³Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

⁴Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

⁵Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

⁹Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

¹⁰That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

¹¹And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

¹²Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

¹³For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Sign In

What Do Mormons Believe About Non-Mormon Christians?

Recommended Posts

RevTestament

Navidad

Navidad

RevTestament

Meerkat

Navidad

Navidad

thesometimesaint

RevTestament

Moroni 7:12-13

mfbukowski

Meerkat

Meerkat

Navidad

Moroni 7:12-13

Navidad

Navidad

thesometimesaint

Navidad

Navidad

Moroni 7:12-13

Navidad

thesometimesaint

Navidad

Navidad

Navidad

thesometimesaint

mfbukowski

Philippians 2King James Version (KJV)

Recently Browsing 0 members

Activity

Browse