What Do Mormons Believe About Non-Mormon Christians?

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

From my stint over 20 years on online forums, most Protestants draw the line here. They have rejected the Catholic Church, but see the Nicene Council as preceding the Catholic Church. There are some exceptions. I spent time on one forum which had a subforum for "unorthodox Christians."

The other interesting thing is that since the key terms are so vague and the way the creed has been interpreted so varied there's really nothing in it that I object to. The main points we really break with are over creation ex nihilo and the embodiment of the Father. Yet those aren't part of the creed.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

That only Mormons have God's authority.  

But we don't believe that "only Mormons" have His love.  His blessings.  The Plan of Salvation we share on a regular basis to anyone who will listen is about as universalist as you can get.

Quote

That is the ultimate exclusion that destroys the spiritual experience of every other individual Christian and Christian group in the past two thousand years. 

I'm not sure that's a correct assessment.  Consider, for example, Doctrine & Covenants 137:

Quote

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

How do you reconcile these verses with your characterization of our beliefs as "the ultimate exclusion"?

I reject the notion that God has limited His influence, His Spirit, to the Latter-day Saints.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 30, 2017 by smac97

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hmmm. Can you cite me any non-Mormon reference that states that Mormon baptisms are the only ones performed by "His authority?"  I don't think you would accept it if I quoted Menno Simons (the founder of Mennonitism) to prove that only Mennonite baptism is authoritative (which of course, he didn't say). Only Mormons believe what you say, and you can cite only Mormon documents to prove it.  So, I must accept it as your truth, which indeed is what I am asking. It is your doctrine and it excludes mine.

Don't take it hard that our beliefs are different.  Certainly you don't accept our beliefs of sole authority.   You keep acting offended that Mormon beliefs are exclusive of your beliefs, but I don't see how your beliefs are any less exclusive of our claims.  No offense, but you seem to be making this very one-sided.

Now, if you really want to compare who is more exclusive, lets look at this from the big picture.

Mormonism vs. every other Christian religion.  Which one is more exclusive in relation to salvation when considering the whole of humanity, including those who die non-Christian (the majority of the population of Earth)? 

17 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Mormon doctrine does teach and Mormons do believe that only their ordinances and sacraments are performed by "God's authority.  and are therefore pleasing in His sight. There is no other Christian group on the face of the earth who holds such a strident view. It is what makes Mormonism unique. It is what makes me sad.

It is not strident when you consider the big picture of the plan of salvation and temple work from a Mormon perspective.  What seems sad and strident to me is that good Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindu's who die before hearing and accepting the good word of God have no hope and are excluded from the blood of Christ. Mormonism is unique and the most accepting and non-exclusive Christian religion on Earth in terms of salvation. 

26 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 For 180 years Mormonism has complained about others while all the time holding exclusive beliefs that negate God's acceptance of all other believers, their practices, and their beliefs. 

The gift of salvation/exaltation is offered to all in Mormonism, not a select few (which makes me sad).

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

1. I am more convinced than ever that evangelicals by and large do not know, let alone understand core foundational LDS beliefs and how they all fit together. I am more convinced than ever that Mormons by and large do not know, let alone understand core foundational evangelical beliefs and how they all fit together. We talk right past each other, saying things that we are taught to say, or that we believe that go right over the other's head.

My experience is that especially among many (most?) contemporary Evangelicals theology is devalued as not important and they're really ignorant of their own theology. Certainly there's ignorance among Mormons - many key beliefs are a bit more ambiguous or complex than the typical member is aware. Yet I think most have a pretty good understanding of what I'd call key doctrines. My experience with many Evangelicals is that many express modalism when they think they're giving the doctrine of the Trinity. (To be fair your typical Mormon also confuses the Trinity as modalism) Likewise there's lots of other types of ignorance. That's not to say there aren't well informed Evangelicals but learning about such things seems a pretty low priority among most I've discussed things with.

But I fully agree Mormons are far too ignorant of other religions, although in polls on religious knowledge we do pretty well. I believe only atheists, agnostics and Jews did better.  So we may be ignorant, but not as ignorant as the rest. LOL. (For the record I found the questions pretty basic and not what I'd call even a good groundwork for knowledge of other religions)

Quote

Evangelicals often formally study other faiths in Sunday Schools, in evangelical colleges, and in seminaries (meaning graduate schools - different from Mormon seminaries).  This helps us a lot but much of the teaching is stereotypical and apologetic. My sense (I may be wrong) is that there is very little teaching in Mormon Sunday schools, etc. about the real live no kidding beliefs of evangelicals.

That's a reasonably small group of Evangelicals relative to the whole those - especially those in seminaries or colleges. Mormons don't really learn about Evangelicals in Church. I think it'd probably be helpful if we did - especially dealing with Asian religions. But we don't.

Quote

In two days, I have read several instances on this board of non-Mormons being labelled as enemies. 

Could you link to them? Not that I doubt you, but that sounds out of character with most Mormons I know on this board. I wonder if something is being misunderstood. I don't read most of the threads and heaven knows there are Mormons here I disagree with vigorously. But I suspect there's miscommunication going on.

Quote

Somebody, somewhere in Mormon education and training teaches Mormons to focus on creeds; Nicene is the most common example.

I can't say I've heard it ever in Mormon education. Typically it's brought up by Evangelicals and I bet that's where Mormons who know about it hear about it. (Unless they're reading blogs or the like where it's discussed)

Quote

Probably more Mormons have heard of the Council of Nicea than have evangelicals.  

That is quite likely. Although again that's usually due to people attacking us on the issue. As I said though I personally don't have a problem with the Creed given how ambiguous it is. I think it's misleadingly presented as the place where Mormons and Evangelicals disagree. But I definitely first heard of it when people were attacking my religion as non-Christian due to the creed.

Quote

There are many other Christian groups besides the Mormons who are baptismal regenerationalists.

I'm not sure Mormons really are either. (I know we're frequently categorized as such) How Mormons view baptism is much more tied to covenant making. This is actually a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance. For one Mormons tend to distinguish the spiritual rebirth from baptism. Second while baptism is seen as essential to salvation of a sort our more complex view of heaven tends to make it not a simple yes/no issue. The theology is simply different enough that applying categories that made sense in the trajectory of Christianity from the early Church Fathers onwards don't necessarily fit Mormon thought well.

Quote

On the one hand, you seem to believe that all but a few (sons of perdition) will spent eternity in one level of heaven with some chance of progressing to a higher one in time. 

The issue of progression is controversial. There have been major Mormons who have accepted that doctrine but most Mormons don't believe it. In any case there's no clear statement pro or con on the issue.

Quote

Since, you believe in cleansing of sin by the properly authorized baptismal waters, then isn’t my entire basic salvation/forgiveness of sins a non-starter for you regardless of how kind you want to be to me?

Again Mormons don't really believe that. While baptism is for the remission of sins, it is the Holy Ghost working on us (which is a permanent gift due to a separate ordinance) that we believe works sanctification. So like I said Mormons tend to distinguish being born again from being baptized although they are closely related.

Quote

I have read posts where Mormons believe that evangelicals do not believe in continuing and on-going revelation. That certainly is not true.

Evangelicals certainly believe in revelation of a sort. However not the sort that Mormons accept as continual prophecy of a sort that could be counted on as scripture to the whole church. Part of the confusion is that Mormons tended to develop their perceptions of Protestantism from the major forms in the 19th century. The idea of more charismatic movements is alien to them even though they were a major issue in the early (pre-Utah) Church. Since then Mormons tend to get their view of what Evangelicals believe from the Evangelicals who attack them. And usually we're condemned by such people for having the Book of Mormon and D&C. It's easy to confuse sola scripture with no revelation for the typical member who is hearing this from Evangelicals who often aren't terribly careful themselves in how they explain it. (And it is a confusing issue I must say - I've studied a fair bit and I don't quite understand the distinction even though I recognize many Evangelicals take there to be a distinction)

Edited August 30, 2017 by clarkgoble

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, Navidad said:

That only Mormons have God's authority.  That is the ultimate exclusion that destroys the spiritual experience of every other individual Christian and Christian group in the past two thousand years. 

Not at all. I believe the Waldensian movement was very real and stirred by the Spirit of God to bring about change in the Church.

I accept much of what the original Historicists believed as correct, and I believe the spirit of the Lord led about the Historicist movement. So in this sense I applaud the Protestant movement. However, that doesn't mean God had given them authority. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean they are not saved. I have had spiritual experiences before joining the LDS Church. I believe the Lord can and does answer the ardent prayers of believers - whether LDS or not. In short there have been many valid spiritual experiences of people before the LDS Church was instituted to restore the gospel.

What seems like an ultimate exclusion to me is to say those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life must got to hell with no hope of repentance. How does the Mennonite faith deal with this Evangelical idea? Does it conclude that only Europeans get saved for all those two thousand years, and the 13th century Chinese peasant goes to hell forever even though he never heard of Yeshua? That is a huge problem for me.

[mapman]

I don't think that it is offensive for a religion to believe they are the correct way to salvation. That's why there are different religions in the first place, and unless they were to tell me otherwise I would assume that they believe their way to be the correct way. I presume that most Evangelicals don't believe that non-Christian religions lead to salvation either. We Mormons just don't have a separate category for Christian religions in our theology. We believe all sorts of religions are inspired and carry out a part in God's cosmic plan, and that would include other Christians. The spiritual experiences and relationship with God of a Mennonite, or a Buddhist, or a Neopagan are all just as valid as a Mormon's. It's kind of like how the Levites had an important role to play among the Israelites for their salvation, but God wanted people in the other tribes as well for other purposes.

Edited August 30, 2017 by mapman

[Navidad]

Good afternoon all:

I want to thank you each for your many posts. I am a bit overwhelmed by it all and am beginning to react on an emotional level to it (sad - not angry) and that is neither fair nor good. I just need to back away from replying for a bit. I have to speak at a meeting tonight and tomorrow I will be traveling all day up to the US for some personal business. So, I can't read or reply until Friday morning. That is probably a good thing. You all have been very kind and very helpful. You each add a different nuance to your replies. As frank as I can be with strangers, I really enjoy and appreciate Mormon history, doctrine and friends. I probably have committed as many waking hours to that in the past several years of retirement as I have anything else, except my family (they might even disagree with that). 

From what I am reading in your replies I am stunned with the no kidding realization that I will never be accepted by my Mormon friends in the same way I accept them. Maybe in a silly way, I feel a kind of unrequited love. Please don't get me wrong; most Mormons have been consistent in what they have said or implied to me - I am a great guy, a brother in Christ but can't be accepted for eternity "just as I am." It is kind of, in an immature way when someone says, "Oh yeh, I will accept you if you will just or only change this and this . . ." I hope you as Mormons realize how much that hurts.  Now, I don't expect you to change your core theology, but I just ask you to understand from the eyes of the "other" how that feels - probably how the saints felt in Missouri and in Illinois and yes, to some degree here in Mexico. 

When I see you write about your beliefs that only Mormon sacraments and ordinances have God's approval, blessing, and authority; I think it must make God weep. Any way you say it, my (and all other believers in Christ who have ever lived) only chance at enjoying the practice of the presence of God for eternity is through your rites. Think about that. Please think about that - with your head and your heart. Oh no, you have told me - you have a chance after death to accept baptism - Mormon baptism that is, as what is acceptable to God. I was baptized by my own father for heaven's sake! Yes, for heaven's sake!  I just don't feel the occasion insight from the Holy Spirit. I have the Holy Spirit; it is through Him that I live and breath. When you tell me I can only receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of your priest's hands; I say without hesitation - You are wrong! I am as sure of the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering me as I am of Him doing the same for you. I would never question your testimony; yet you deny me mine. 

I asked you to tell me what you believe; and you have. Thanks for that. You have only done what I have asked. I now have to think about how to accept it and adjust to it. It is my issue; not yours. I know that. 

Phil

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good afternoon all:

I want to thank you each for your many posts. I am a bit overwhelmed by it all and am beginning to react on an emotional level to it (sad - not angry) and that is neither fair nor good. I just need to back away from replying for a bit. I have to speak at a meeting tonight and tomorrow I will be traveling all day up to the US for some personal business. So, I can't read or reply until Friday morning. That is probably a good thing. You all have been very kind and very helpful. You each add a different nuance to your replies. As frank as I can be with strangers, I really enjoy and appreciate Mormon history, doctrine and friends. I probably have committed as many waking hours to that in the past several years of retirement as I have anything else, except my family (they might even disagree with that). 

From what I am reading in your replies I am stunned with the no kidding realization that I will never be accepted by my Mormon friends in the same way I accept them. Maybe in a silly way, I feel a kind of unrequited love. Please don't get me wrong; most Mormons have been consistent in what they have said or implied to me - I am a great guy, a brother in Christ but can't be accepted for eternity "just as I am." It is kind of, in an immature way when someone says, "Oh yeh, I will accept you if you will just or only change this and this . . ." I hope you as Mormons realize how much that hurts.  Now, I don't expect you to change your core theology, but I just ask you to understand from the eyes of the "other" how that feels - probably how the saints felt in Missouri and in Illinois and yes, to some degree here in Mexico. 

When I see you write about your beliefs that only Mormon sacraments and ordinances have God's approval, blessing, and authority; I think it must make God weep. Any way you say it, my (and all other believers in Christ who have ever lived) only chance at enjoying the practice of the presence of God for eternity is through your rites. Think about that. Please think about that - with your head and your heart. Oh no, you have told me - you have a chance after death to accept baptism - Mormon baptism that is, as what is acceptable to God. I was baptized by my own father for heaven's sake! Yes, for heaven's sake!  I just don't feel the occasion insight from the Holy Spirit. I have the Holy Spirit; it is through Him that I live and breath. When you tell me I can only receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of your priest's hands; I say without hesitation - You are wrong! I am as sure of the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering me as I am of Him doing the same for you. I would never question your testimony; yet you deny me mine. 

I asked you to tell me what you believe; and you have. Thanks for that. You have only done what I have asked. I now have to think about how to accept it and adjust to it. It is my issue; not yours. I know that. 

Phil

I just want to say one thing, before you're off to fulfill your other engagements.  You said that you are realizing that, from the Mormon perspective, you can't be accepted for eternity just as you are.  I just want you to know that from the mormon perspective, none of us can be accepted for eternity just as we are (mormon or not).  We believe the purpose of this life is to become like Christ and that changing from who we are to who He is, is what impacts our acceptance by God in the next life.  

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by bluebell

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

That only Mormons have God's authority.  That is the ultimate exclusion that destroys the spiritual experience of every other individual Christian and Christian group in the past two thousand years. 

Navidad, this has been an enjoyable discussion. Unfortunately in a forum like this, as you said, we talk past each other sometimes, and we misunderstand each other.  I should have been more interested in understanding you.  I thought you were asking what Mormons believe about non Mormons.  If you are a true believer in Mennonite doctrine as we are in ours, you may have no interest or motivation to understand what we are saying.  Maybe we both become more entrenched in our beliefs as we express them.  

From my point of view, many (And I particularly appreciated Smac97's thoughtful comments,) have clearly expressed why LDS doctrine is not exclusionist at all.  In fact it is the opposite, if you will try to understand it from our point of view.  Every spiritual experience I had learning about Christ, every wrestle with my faith, all the time I spent in other churches, studying and praying about where to worship God I didn't lose.  I brought them with me, and my life is richer and better for it.  I lean on that spiritual knowledge.  It belongs to me.  It is foundational to the faith I have now.

And in the end, I am with you.  The Telestial Kingdom is far more than I deserve.  But if God's plan is to populate the Celestial Kingdom with righteous, holy people who want to help Him accomplish His holy purposes,  I want to be part of that great work-- for Him.  Out of gratitude to Him.  Not because I am worthy or deserve anything, but because this is what God wants for as many of His children as will come. What is sad, from my point of view, is that many are being invited to the wedding feast, but are choosing to stay outside.  Why?  

Who are we of any faith, to be condescending to anyone. We are all as filthy rags.  It is only through Christ that we are here, that we have peace in our lives.  Navidad, please reread the comments from everyone.  If you still think the LDS Church is exclusionist, you are missing what most of us have been trying to communicate through scriptures and our own experience.

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

From what I am reading in your replies I am stunned with the no kidding realization that I will never be accepted by my Mormon friends in the same way I accept them. Maybe in a silly way, I feel a kind of unrequited love.

 

50 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good afternoon all:

I want to thank you each for your many posts. I am a bit overwhelmed by it all and am beginning to react on an emotional level to it (sad - not angry) and that is neither fair nor good. I just need to back away from replying for a bit. I have to speak at a meeting tonight and tomorrow I will be traveling all day up to the US for some personal business. So, I can't read or reply until Friday morning. That is probably a good thing. You all have been very kind and very helpful. You each add a different nuance to your replies. As frank as I can be with strangers, I really enjoy and appreciate Mormon history, doctrine and friends. I probably have committed as many waking hours to that in the past several years of retirement as I have anything else, except my family (they might even disagree with that). 

From what I am reading in your replies I am stunned with the no kidding realization that I will never be accepted by my Mormon friends in the same way I accept them. Maybe in a silly way, I feel a kind of unrequited love. Please don't get me wrong; most Mormons have been consistent in what they have said or implied to me - I am a great guy, a brother in Christ but can't be accepted for eternity "just as I am." It is kind of, in an immature way when someone says, "Oh yeh, I will accept you if you will just or only change this and this . . ." I hope you as Mormons realize how much that hurts.  Now, I don't expect you to change your core theology, but I just ask you to understand from the eyes of the "other" how that feels - probably how the saints felt in Missouri and in Illinois and yes, to some degree here in Mexico. 

When I see you write about your beliefs that only Mormon sacraments and ordinances have God's approval, blessing, and authority; I think it must make God weep. Any way you say it, my (and all other believers in Christ who have ever lived) only chance at enjoying the practice of the presence of God for eternity is through your rites. Think about that. Please think about that - with your head and your heart. Oh no, you have told me - you have a chance after death to accept baptism - Mormon baptism that is, as what is acceptable to God. I was baptized by my own father for heaven's sake! Yes, for heaven's sake!  I just don't feel the occasion insight from the Holy Spirit. I have the Holy Spirit; it is through Him that I live and breath. When you tell me I can only receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of your priest's hands; I say without hesitation - You are wrong! I am as sure of the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering me as I am of Him doing the same for you. I would never question your testimony; yet you deny me mine. 

I asked you to tell me what you believe; and you have. Thanks for that. You have only done what I have asked. I now have to think about how to accept it and adjust to it. It is my issue; not yours. I know that. 

Phil

I think the biggest hang up and hurt feelings for you are coming from this feeling that we are not validating your experiences with the Holy Ghost and your personal relationship with Jesus Christ because of our claim of authority.  I promise you that with a better understanding of our doctrines and beliefs, your feelings will change. I do not believe that Mormons have any more personal relationship with their Savior than any other Christian.  Your experiences are real.  They are valid.  I think all of us would encourage you to keep having them, seek after them, listen to that guiding voice in your heart.  That is all we want for you.  I don't believe that your path to God is any less valid than mine.  If we are both listening to and following the same voice, how could we not end up at the same destination?  I don't believe that you are any less responsive to the spirit than me.  I can tell that you have spiritual gifts.  These spiritual gifts are not exclusive to Mormons.  We do not claim exclusive rights to the gifts of the Spirit.  We absolutely do not deny you your testimony (I don't know why you would think that).

Here is a parable that I like to share at times on this board.  I think it might help you to understand where Mormons are coming from:

Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined, 
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind), 
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind. 

The First approach'd the Elephant, 
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, 
At once began to bawl: 
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!" 

The Second, feeling of the tusk, 
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp? 
To me 'tis mighty clear, 
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!" 

The Third approach'd the animal, 
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, 
Thus boldly up and spake: 
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!" 

The Fourth reached out an eager hand, 
And felt about the knee: 
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,- 
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant 
Is very like a tree!" 

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, 
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; 
Deny the fact who can, 
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!" 

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope, 
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope, 
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!" 
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long, 
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong, 
Though each was partly in the right, 
And all were in the wrong! 

I think you would agree, that in the grand scheme of things, none of us can see the big picture.  We each have our perspective which is limited by our experience.  Were they not all of these men feeling the same elephant?  That is how it is with Christianity, but Mormons take it even further to include all of humanity (not just Christians).  We believe that all are touched by the light of Christ and experience it and react to it in their lives.  Mormons do not claim to see and know the whole elephant.  We are limited in our perspective as well.

I have more to say but will have to finish later...have to catch Trax!    

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Not at all. I believe the Waldensian movement was very real and stirred by the Spirit of God to bring about change in the Church.

I accept much of what the original Historicists believed as correct, and I believe the spirit of the Lord led about the Historicist movement. So in this sense I applaud the Protestant movement. However, that doesn't mean God had given them authority. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean they are not saved. I have had spiritual experiences before joining the LDS Church. I believe the Lord can and does answer the ardent prayers of believers - whether LDS or not. In short there have been many valid spiritual experiences of people before the LDS Church was instituted to restore the gospel.

What seems like an ultimate exclusion to me is to say those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life must got to hell with no hope of repentance. How does the Mennonite faith deal with this Evangelical idea? Does it conclude that only Europeans get saved for all those two thousand years, and the 13th century Chinese peasant goes to hell forever even though he never heard of Yeshua? That is a huge problem for me.

A quick and important answer. I believe today the majority of evangelicals, including Mennonites are inclusivists.  That is a belief that those who never hear the message of the good news of Christ will be included by God's grace in those who will be redeemed in the final judgment. When all are judged God will use his mercy and love to redeem those who never heard. I personally know only a few evangelicals who today don't believe that. That is certainly a change from 100 or even perhaps fifty years ago. Thanks.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mapman said:

I don't think that it is offensive for a religion to believe they are the correct way to salvation. That's why there are different religions in the first place, and unless they were to tell me otherwise I would assume that they believe their way to be the correct way. I presume that most Evangelicals don't believe that non-Christian religions lead to salvation either. We Mormons just don't have a separate category for Christian religions in our theology. We believe all sorts of religions are inspired and carry out a part in God's cosmic plan, and that would include other Christians. The spiritual experiences and relationship with God of a Mennonite, or a Buddhist, or a Neopagan are all just as valid as a Mormon's. It's kind of like how the Levites had an important role to play among the Israelites for their salvation, but God wanted people in the other tribes as well for other purposes.

Our way to use a derivative of your term is Christianity that is our religion. Mennonitism and Mormonism are two examples of Christian faiths. You are correct we wouldn't include non-Christian religions in that. Some of us are working very hard to help our co-religionists see Mormons as in the Christian faith. So yes, we are talking about Christians and I believe as well those who have never heard. But Mormons don't include as you say other Christian faiths in your "religion, very narrowly defined as one group - Mormonism.  Mennonitism is not my religion. It is my faith expression of my religion. I would like to say that for Mormons, Mormonism isn't their religion, it is their faith express of their religion. But I no longer believe that is true. You are right, that isn't offensive, it is just disappointing to one who has tried so hard and defended Mormons as hard or harder than Alexander Doniphan did! Ha!
 

[hagoth7]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:35 PM, Navidad said:

...Can a faithful Mormon say one thing and another faithful Mormon respond differently and both still be faithful Mormons? 

Yep.

If you want more concrete answers for some of your questions, the 12 articles of faith are a good starting place.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

Edited August 31, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

But not ours - because of their concept of original sin. We do not believe a baby is born in sin and destined for hell if it dies. Since our doctrine disagrees with theirs on this point, the Catholic Church does not accept our baptism. We believe that the sons shall not be punished for the sin of their fathers....

It is our understanding of the nature of God, not original sin that resulted in their rejection of our baptism...we mean something fundamentally different when we say " in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost".

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/20/news/mn-24451

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

...it is just disappointing to one who has tried so hard and defended Mormons as hard or harder than Alexander Doniphan did! Ha!

?! Please share. (Or did I miss what was already said?)

[hagoth7]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

You can't be serious?  You think that is "typical"?

I wonder if Navidad's extensive experience with Mormons will reconcile well with your assessment. 

I agree with pogi that it...(i.e. slighting other faiths)...is not at all typical of LDS behavior.

It certainly happens in a few corners of Mormonism. But it is nothing near typical.

Edited August 31, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

There is a difference between the Gift of the Holy Ghost and having the Holy Ghost with one.

The Gift is a specific ordinance/covenant dealing with sanctification.

NonMormons sincerely seeking God can receive the Holy Spirit, they can receive inspiration, revelation.  Joseph Smith saw God and Christ without the Gift of the Holy Ghost or Baptism, after all.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

But, but, but (I worry I am debating) doesn't the concept that God only accepts and honors Mormon baptism make Him a partial God as well?  Even Catholics now accept other baptisms as valid. 

 

Maybe this was answered already but Catholics do not accept Mormon baptism

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/20/news/mn-24451

 

[Avatar4321]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

But, but, but (I worry I am debating) doesn't the concept that God only accepts and honors Mormon baptism make Him a partial God as well?  Even Catholics now accept other baptisms as valid. 

 

 

Does a judge only accepting speeding tickets from a police officer and not any citizen handing them out make him a partial judge?

Paul met disciples who had been baptized but not received the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They didn't even know the Holy Ghost existed. Yet he rebaptized them as well. Why didn't he honor their baptism? They clearly believed.

Who has authority to baptize? How did they get that authority?

I've always been impressed with Oliver Cowdwry's testimony of the restoration of authority to baptize:

 

 

 

Quote

 

These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’

“To notice, in even few words, the interesting account given by Mormon and his faithful son, Moroni, of a people once beloved and favored of heaven, would supersede my present design; I shall therefore defer this to a future period, and, as I said in the introduction, pass more directly to some few incidents immediately connected with the rise of this Church, which may be entertaining to some thousands who have stepped forward, amid the frowns of bigots and the calumny of hypocrites, and embraced the Gospel of Christ.

“No men, in their sober senses, could translate and write the directions given to the Nephites from the mouth of the Savior, of the precise manner in which men should build up His Church, and especially when corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men, without desiring a privilege of showing the willingness of the heart by being buried in the liquid grave, to answer a ‘good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.’

“After writing the account given of the Savior’s ministry to the remnant of the seed of Jacob, upon this continent, it was easy to be seen, as the prophet said it would be, that darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. On reflecting further it was as easy to be seen that amid the great strife and noise concerning religion, none had authority from God to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. For the question might be asked, have men authority to administer in the name of Christ, who deny revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth? If these facts were buried, and carefully concealed by men whose craft would have been in danger if once permitted to shine in the faces of men, they were no longer to us; and we only waited for the commandment to be given ‘Arise and be baptized.’

“This was not long desired before it was realized. The Lord, who is rich in mercy, and ever willing to answer the consistent prayer of the humble, after we had called upon Him in a fervent manner, aside from the abodes of men, condescended to manifest to us His will. On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the veil was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the Gospel of repentance. What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world was racked and distracted—while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld, our ears heard, as in the ‘blaze of day’; yes, more—above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, ‘I am thy fellow-servant,’ dispelled every fear. We listened, we gazed, we admired! ’Twas the voice of an angel from glory, ’twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while His love enkindled upon our souls, and we were wrapped in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? Nowhere; uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk no more to rise, while fiction and deception had fled forever!

“But, dear brother, think, further think for a moment, what joy filled our hearts, and with what surprise we must have bowed, (for who would not have bowed the knee for such a blessing?) when we received under his hand the Holy Priesthood as he said, ‘Upon you my fellow-servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer this Priesthood and this authority, which shall remain upon earth, that the Sons of Levi may yet offer an offering unto the Lord in righteousness!’

“I shall not attempt to paint to you the feelings of this heart, nor the majestic beauty and glory which surrounded us on this occasion; but you will believe me when I say, that earth, nor men, with the eloquence of time, cannot begin to clothe language in as interesting and sublime a manner as this holy personage. No; nor has this earth power to give the joy, to bestow the peace, or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentence as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit! Man may deceive his fellow-men, deception may follow deception, and the children of the wicked one may have power to seduce the foolish and untaught, till naught but fiction feeds the many, and the fruit of falsehood carries in its current the giddy to the grave; but one touch with the finger of his love, yes, one ray of glory from the upper world, or one word from the mouth of the Savior, from the bosom of eternity, strikes it all into insignificance, and blots it forever from the mind. The assurance that we were in the presence of an angel, the certainty that we heard the voice of Jesus, and the truth unsullied as it flowed from a pure personage, dictated by the will of God, is to me past description, and I shall ever look upon this expression of the Savior’s goodness with wonder and thanksgiving while I am permitted to tarry; and in those mansions where perfection dwells and sin never comes, I hope to adore in that day which shall never cease.”—Messenger and Advocate, vol. 1 (October 1834), pp. 14–16.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

But, but, but (I worry I am debating) doesn't the concept that God only accepts and honors Mormon baptism make Him a partial God as well?  Even Catholics now accept other baptisms as valid. 

 

What is wrong with God being partial?

Does he accept Satanic rituals?  That is strictly to make the point that of course he is partial- I do not mean to imply that other Christians are satanists for one second, just that there are things that are right and wrong.

Is God partial toward sin, or not sinning? 

I am just saying that clearly he must have preferences in these matters.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

The Westminster Confession is over 150 pages long. Mormons would agree with some it and reject other parts of it. That doesn't make them creedal. It is creedal only for some reformed faiths. It certainly isn't creedal for Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, or any of the Anabaptist faiths. They will each agree with some parts and disagree with others, just like Mormons. That doesn't make them creedal. 

Do Mennonites accept the Trinity as one God in three persons who are consubstantial?

That is the Nicene Creed and is not Biblical

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

That only Mormons have God's authority.  That is the ultimate exclusion that destroys the spiritual experience of every other individual Christian and Christian group in the past two thousand years. 

If others have authority where are their revelations? We present the Book of Morning, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price as evidence for our authority. All are invited to study these records and compare them with the Bible, then seek their own revelation from The Spirit.

 

I also humbly disagree with your assessment that the restoration of authority somehow destroys the spiritual experiences of others. Take Martin Luther for example. I have no doubt that his experience with Providence was genuine. I believe that the Spirit enlightened Him on the topic of grace. That his work was opened the way to the eventual restoration.

I have no doubt that non members have spiritual experiences. If they didn't, they wouldn't get baptized

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

Hmmm. Can you cite me any non-Mormon reference that states that Mormon baptisms are the only ones performed by "His authority?"  I don't think you would accept it if I quoted Menno Simons (the founder of Mennonitism) to prove that only Mennonite baptism is authoritative (which of course, he didn't say). Only Mormons believe what you say, and you can cite only Mormon documents to prove it.  So, I must accept it as your truth, which indeed is what I am asking. It is your doctrine and it excludes mine.

I just want to think better and higher of my Mormon friends. I am afraid I will have to face the facts.  I admire so much of what you have said in your posts that I have read; both you and Meerkat. I guess I have to just give it up. Mormon doctrine does teach and Mormons do believe that only their ordinances and sacraments are performed by "God's authority.  and are therefore pleasing in His sight. There is no other Christian group on the face of the earth who holds such a strident view. It is what makes Mormonism unique. It is what makes me sad. For 180 years Mormonism has complained about others while all the time holding exclusive beliefs that negate God's acceptance of all other believers, their practices, and their beliefs. Your post has really driven it home for me.  I can make it to the telestial and terrestial kingdom without you , but living in the practice of the presence of God is exclusively your prerogative. That certainly doesn't draw me towards your faith. It pushes me away from it.  I would share my testimony, but it would be for naught. I don't want to change your beliefs and you don't honor mine as from God - His love or His authority. That makes me so sad. Sorry.

 

Why should we accept non-Mormon sources?   We are Mormons!

But it appears to me you are doing the same here that you accuse us of doing.  You are not accepting our beliefs as from God so what is he difference?  (I also do not see debating as a dirty word- I think we need to stand up for ourselves,  even Jesus cleansed the temple more than once and called people "vipers" etc.)

How can one be a Mennonite if it is not somehow "better" than NOT being a Mennonite?  If all faiths are of equal worth to God why have any faith at all?  Honestly that makes no sense to me.

Edited August 31, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

That only Mormons have God's authority.  That is the ultimate exclusion that destroys the spiritual experience of every other individual Christian and Christian group in the past two thousand years. 

Not at all- I don't know why you say that.  It is not exclusive at all- we just think we are right and others will eventually get it too.

Perhaps Mennonites shy away from that because they see it as "bragging" ?   And bragging is wrong- why?  Why is the simple life "better"?  Could THAT be "bragging" in a subtle way?

I believe all communications from God are for the good of the receipient and brings them closer to God.

Every one is  a step forward toward the final goal of becoming like our Father- of growing up and "putting off childish things"

How can our spiritual experience destroy yours?

I do not deny anyone's spiritual experiences- they are all steps on the path and all roads lead to Christ.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The other interesting thing is that since the key terms are so vague and the way the creed has been interpreted so varied there's really nothing in it that I object to. The main points we really break with are over creation ex nihilo and the embodiment of the Father. Yet those aren't part of the creed.

And the Trinity