Prayer Request from Houston Temple Presidency

[sunstoned]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

At times like this, arguing about religion seems pretty trivial, doesn't it?

I agree.  It's good to see you back.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

My son in NE Houston says the sun came out today- first time in days.  No water in his street, major puddles in back yard about 3 inches deep but that's about it.

Hope the worst is over

Yeah, Beaumont is getting hit hard but Houston may be okay now, not out of the woods, but cautious optimism is warranted.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Me too. Here's a photo of my daughter's family room. 

Holy cow- so sorry!!

But at this point I guess we just have to comfort ourselves that they are personally safe now and the damage is just to things as opposed to people.

My wife recently also had foot surgery- and I totally get it- can't imagine having a baby AND not being able to even get your foot wet, not only because you can't put weight on it but also do to infection problems- look at that water!.

But thank God everyone is safe- that is the main thing.  

[bsjkki]

Today I've read a lot of sad stories about those who lost their lives in this flood. A cop, a beloved coach, a family of six and these two heart wrenching stories. http://people.com/human-interest/texas-child-saved-from-flood/ and http://www.khou.com/mobile/article/news/infant-swept-away-in-harvey-floodwaters/89-469126174. Prayers for all and for those who have lost so much.

[MorningStar]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Me too. Here's a photo of my daughter's family room. 

This would be so hard to go through, but thank goodness they got out of there! Looking at the beautiful family photo arrangement above the water, it made me think how they still have the most important thing.  I hope the water goes down soon and that it won't take too long to get the help they need.  

[jkwilliams]

5 hours ago, MorningStar said:

This would be so hard to go through, but thank goodness they got out of there! Looking at the beautiful family photo arrangement above the water, it made me think how they still have the most important thing.  I hope the water goes down soon and that it won't take too long to get the help they need.  

That's exactly how I feel about it. Maybe this isn't kosher on this board, but my sister is going to set up a fund for them, as they don't have flood insurance. If anyone's interested, I'll post the details on my blog when I have them. 

[jkwilliams]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Holy cow- so sorry!!

But at this point I guess we just have to comfort ourselves that they are personally safe now and the damage is just to things as opposed to people.

My wife recently also had foot surgery- and I totally get it- can't imagine having a baby AND not being able to even get your foot wet, not only because you can't put weight on it but also do to infection problems- look at that water!.

But thank God everyone is safe- that is the main thing.  

Everybody is fine, and it's a real blessing that my wife is there to help out. She's been able to care for both moms and the kids. My daughter and granddaughter will be coming here next Wednesday and staying until the house is ready for them. As bad as it is at their house, other people in Houston have it much worse. 

[SmileyMcGee]

On 8/28/2017 at 3:48 PM, Darren10 said:

I think that's a worthy prayer endeavor. The LDS Huston Temple is in the Cypress area and Cypress Creek has been overflowing. That's the creek nearest to my house as well. So far we're dry and I pray the Tempe will remain the same. From the pictures I've seen online I thought it already was.  

Temple Presidency Asks for Prayers for Texas Temple as Grounds Flood During Hurricane Harvey (+ Photos)

This request is quite interesting to me. On the one hand i can see the value in petitioning God to protect the temple because members value the temple and making such a request shows God and themselves how much they value the temple and prayer can be a means for people to accept the will of God and certain outcomes. On the other hand I see the request as potentially creating an interesting, almost comical view of a God that would allow his own house to be partially ruined by a natural disaster that he can control unless his children ask him not to. What would your opinion be of me if I told you that next week I was going to drive a bulldozer towards my house and I would only stop if my kids unitedly asked me to stop what I was doing? 

Sorry, not trying to be a butthead, just find the possible implications of such a request to be odd. 

[MorningStar]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That's exactly how I feel about it. Maybe this isn't kosher on this board, but my sister is going to set up a fund for them, as they don't have flood insurance. If anyone's interested, I'll post the details on my blog when I have them. 

I saw last night that there's a hotline for people to request help from the church.  I don't know about materials, but they can at least rip out carpet and cut out wet dry wall. I saw a donation site the other day that doesn't take a cut of the money. Go Fund Me takes a pretty good amount.  Or maybe set up an account at a bank? Can't even imagine how stressful this must be. 

[bluebell]

Someone in a Facebook group (having a discussion about the flooding of the Houston temple) highlighted a comment made by another sister, who said (paraphrasing) that knowing that the temple can be rebuilt gives her hope that her own life can be rebuilt too.

For some people, knowing that God did not spare His own house will help them to move past how He did not spare their's.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, SmileyMcGee said:

This request is quite interesting to me. On the one hand i can see the value in petitioning God to protect the temple because members value the temple and making such a request shows God and themselves how much they value the temple and prayer can be a means for people to accept the will of God and certain outcomes. On the other hand I see the request as potentially creating an interesting, almost comical view of a God that would allow his own house to be partially ruined by a natural disaster that he can control unless his children ask him not to. What would your opinion be of me if I told you that next week I was going to drive a bulldozer towards my house and I would only stop if my kids unitedly asked me to stop what I was doing? 

Sorry, not trying to be a butthead, just find the possible implications of such a request to be odd. 

This is one of those great open questions for discussion within the Church, and people's views differ widely on this (setting aside Catholic and Protestant Christianity and just considering Mormonism). Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's). Others believe that our prayers definitely can have an impact --- and that outcomes can depend on praying at all, and standing/sincerity/worthiness. I am definitely in the latter camp.

I love Lou Midgley's oft-expressed thought that stories are much more important in Mormonism than systematic theology. What we learn from the stories in the scriptures are the core of Mormonism, much more than doctrine. Stories like Abraham negotiating with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, or Moses talking God "down from the ledge" and convincing him to change his mind about destroying Israel and starting over with another people (Exodus 32 and Numbers 14 --- "And the Lord repented of the evil that he had thought to do unto his people" and "I have pardoned according to thy word") teach this principle of effecacious petitionary prayer. 

I, for one, firmly believe (and have seen the fruit of) that I can go to my Father with something that is very important to me and ask him, and that he can grant it ---- sometimes miraculously. This is much more comforting to me than simply seeing prayer as a means of aligning my will with what is already going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. Talk about stoicism!

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is one of those great open questions for discussion within the Church, and people's views differ widely on this (setting aside Catholic and Protestant Christianity and just considering Mormonism). Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's). Others believe that our prayers definitely can have an impact --- and that outcomes can depend on praying at all, and standing/sincerity/worthiness. I am definitely in the latter camp.

I love Lou Midgley's oft-expressed thought that stories are much more important in Mormonism than systematic theology. What we learn from the stories in the scriptures are the core of Mormonism, much more than doctrine. Stories like Abraham negotiating with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, or Moses talking God "down from the ledge" and convincing him to change his mind about destroying Israel and starting over with another people (Exodus 32 and Numbers 14 --- "And the Lord repented of the evil that he had thought to do unto his people" and "I have pardoned according to thy word") teach this principle of effecacious petitionary prayer. 

I, for one, firmly believe (and have seen the fruit of) that I can go to my Father with something that is very important to me and ask him, and that he can grant it ---- sometimes miraculously. This is much more comforting to me than simply seeing prayer as a means of aligning my will with what is already going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. Talk about stoicism!

Thank you for this perspective...it made me think about things. In some troubles, I have wondered 'why pray at all?' God knows what to do and what he is willing to do and I trust him...so if my prayers don't change anything, why bother. I know this seems faithless but I had faith that the desired outcome may not be God's will. 

[Navidad]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is one of those great open questions for discussion within the Church, and people's views differ widely on this (setting aside Catholic and Protestant Christianity and just considering Mormonism). Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's). Others believe that our prayers definitely can have an impact --- and that outcomes can depend on praying at all, and standing/sincerity/worthiness. I am definitely in the latter camp.

I love Lou Midgley's oft-expressed thought that stories are much more important in Mormonism than systematic theology. What we learn from the stories in the scriptures are the core of Mormonism, much more than doctrine. Stories like Abraham negotiating with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, or Moses talking God "down from the ledge" and convincing him to change his mind about destroying Israel and starting over with another people (Exodus 32 and Numbers 14 --- "And the Lord repented of the evil that he had thought to do unto his people" and "I have pardoned according to thy word") teach this principle of effecacious petitionary prayer. 

I, for one, firmly believe (and have seen the fruit of) that I can go to my Father with something that is very important to me and ask him, and that he can grant it ---- sometimes miraculously. This is much more comforting to me than simply seeing prayer as a means of aligning my will with what is already going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. Talk about stoicism!

Hi: Your comment helps me a lot. The contrast between doctrine and stories is very interesting to me. I love stories and am an avid story teller- especially about Mormon history. But, I have to also realize that doctrine is very important to me. That is one reason I can tell great Mormon stories, and pull my hair out trying to understand Mormon doctrine - its origin and its changes over the years. I wonder if there are any talks or books about how Mormon doctrine has morphed from 1830 to 2017. Perhaps even more importantly how Mormon doctrine is codified and defined?  Oh well, I still love stories. They are what makes us, us. They are what adds the human touch to all of this. Thanks for your post. 

[stemelbow]

Rongo, getting back to your challenge yesterday:

Quoting rongo:

Quote

You strike me as a functional non-believer. Sure, you believe in God as a vague concept, but you don't seem to me to believe that he actually intercedes. In fact, you seem to mock the belief that he actually does in specific instances ("oh, that's adorbs, or cute" that you think that").  

To clarify I was a bit confused about your condemnation over-all, and didn't really understand why you introduced the adorbs and cute stuff, until you explained, "You do that all the time".  I didn't realize you were so upset about it.  Oops on poking you on it again in this thread.  But I guess I still don't know where you get the all the time stuff.  Anyway, I didn't really care for your functional non-believer label.  In order to define such you asked: 

Quote

Do you believe that God sometimes protects buildings or people because they or others prayed specifically for that?

later in the thread, I saw today, you said:

Quote

Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's).

Don't ask me where the end parenthesis comes from. 

So it seems you is defining Elder McConkie as a functional non-believer. 

In truth I do find that God intercedes at the behest of people (not just Mormons), sometimes.  I don't think he cares much if someone loses their keys, though (which I think I've mentioned a time or two in the past couple of years as being somewhat silly, thus your allusion to thinking I don't think He intercedes).  I think His main mode of interceding is providing comfort and ease when people humbly seek it, at times. 

It's kind of interesting that we often are people of contradiction.  Elder McConkie seemed to really abhor the teachings of orthodox Christianity, in some measure, at times, it seems, defining Mormonism as the opposite just to make sure we weren't them or something.  It'd be odd for him to adopt this impassible business of God in light of that.  But of course we are each a bit of a walking contradiction. 

I'm curious generally though. 

How do we view God in terms of impassibility?  I think often we think times are the roughest, and everythings the worst and we plead with Him to give us something to help  (my keys are lost and I'm late.  I might miss an important appointment).  He might feel badly but also realizes it's best to just leave us alone, in some of these cases.  Or he might look down on such a complainer and think that any such instance might be someone over-reacting, or acting entitled.  I think He may come off as not really being impacted by our special pleadings when we get no special comfort and it may be since He sees a bigger picture whatever seems like so important to us (the temple will get flooded) is really just part of what was intended to be our experience. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This is one of those great open questions for discussion within the Church, and people's views differ widely on this (setting aside Catholic and Protestant Christianity and just considering Mormonism). Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's).

Just had to clarify that in the Bible dictionary Elder McConkie does teach that prayer can change an outcome, not because it changes God's will but because sometimes there are blessings that God is willing to give, but are contingent upon us asking for them.  So it's not accurate to say that Elder McConkie's view was that it was impossible to use prayer to get God to take a course of action.

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them.

 

[rongo]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Just had to clarify that in the Bible dictionary Elder McConkie does teach that prayer can change an outcome, not because it changes God's will but because sometimes there are blessings that God is willing to give, but are contingent upon us asking for them.  So it's not accurate to say that Elder McConkie's view was that it was impossible to use prayer to get God to take a course of action.

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them.

You're correct. He does indeed allow for the realization of blessings to be contingent on our asking for them. This isn't as harsh as I remembered.

I still disagree with him that we can't get God to change his mind/will, at times (cf. scriptural precedent).

[rongo]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So it seems you are defining Elder McConkie as a functional non-believer. 

No, not in the same sense that I think that you are, because:

In truth I do find that God intercedes at the behest of people (not just Mormons), sometimes.

I also believe that he intercedes for others, not just Mormons.

I don't think he cares much if someone loses their keys, though (which I think I've mentioned a time or two in the past couple of years as being somewhat silly, thus your allusion to thinking I don't think He intercedes).  I think His main mode of interceding is providing comfort and ease when people humbly seek it, at times.

I don't think that you believe that he can or does *physically* intercede; just mainly providing comfort or ease. Car keys is your most extreme example that you think is silly and worthy of mockery, but think that you would, if pressed, admit that you don't really believe that he physically intercedes (in a way that demonstrates manipulating matter). 

This isn't my experience, or my family's. We've also experienced him manipulating time. I know that it's possible; the variable is whether he will or not. Multiplying loaves and fishes type stuff. 

It's kind of interesting that we often are people of contradiction.  Elder McConkie seemed to really abhor the teachings of orthodox Christianity, in some measure, at times, it seems, defining Mormonism as the opposite just to make sure we weren't them or something.  It'd be odd for him to adopt this impassible business of God in light of that.  But of course we are each a bit of a walking contradiction.

I agree with you there. I disagree with him on some things, but I miss his willingness to boldly teach his views --- and in such a way that it implies disagreeing is a deadly heresy. I see much less forcefulness in the modern era, and I like the direct teaching of views, even when I disagree with it.

I'm curious generally though. 

How do we view God in terms of impassibility?  I think often we think times are the roughest, and everythings the worst and we plead with Him to give us something to help  (my keys are lost and I'm late.  I might miss an important appointment).  He might feel badly but also realizes it's best to just leave us alone, in some of these cases.  Or he might look down on such a complainer and think that any such instance might be someone over-reacting, or acting entitled.  I think He may come off as not really being impacted by our special pleadings when we get no special comfort and it may be since He sees a bigger picture whatever seems like so important to us (the temple will get flooded) is really just part of what was intended to be our experience.

There is definitely growth value in him not answering all of our prayers and allowing us to struggle with wondering why. 

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

No, not in the same sense that I think that you are, because:

 

 

I also believe that he intercedes for others, not just Mormons.

 

 

I don't think that you believe that he can or does *physically* intercede; just mainly providing comfort or ease. Car keys is your most extreme example that you think is silly and worthy of mockery, but think that you would, if pressed, admit that you don't really believe that he physically intercedes (in a way that demonstrates manipulating matter). 

I don't think you really get where I'm coming from.  Nice try, I say, though.  I think it possible He could do anything He wants and has probably manipulated matter, as you put it.  I don't know that any time someone claims He has, means that He has. 

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

This isn't my experience, or my family's. We've also experienced him manipulating time. I know that it's possible; the variable is whether he will or not. Multiplying loaves and fishes type stuff. 

Many people believe He has.  But again, I don't know that it means He has.  In a philosophic sense, I suppose if one really thinks God makes keys appear in the drawer that he previously checked, that it might as well be considered God who made the person see that which he previously overlooked.  By the time we try and evaluate, the keys are found and the magic of God is stored away in someone's imagination. 

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

 

I agree with you there. I disagree with him on some things, but I miss his willingness to boldly teach his views --- and in such a way that it implies disagreeing is a deadly heresy. I see much less forcefulness in the modern era, and I like the direct teaching of views, even when I disagree with it.

 

 

Sounds good.  Peace to you.

[Darren10]

8 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

This request is quite interesting to me. On the one hand i can see the value in petitioning God to protect the temple because members value the temple and making such a request shows God and themselves how much they value the temple and prayer can be a means for people to accept the will of God and certain outcomes. On the other hand I see the request as potentially creating an interesting, almost comical view of a God that would allow his own house to be partially ruined by a natural disaster that he can control unless his children ask him not to. What would your opinion be of me if I told you that next week I was going to drive a bulldozer towards my house and I would only stop if my kids unitedly asked me to stop what I was doing? 

Sorry, not trying to be a butthead, just find the possible implications of such a request to be odd. 

No buttheadeness taken.

"I see the request as potentially creating an interesting, almost comical view of a God that would allow his own house to be partially ruined by a natural disaster that he can control unless his children ask him not to."

Isn't that how God works period?

[Darren10]

18 hours ago, MorningStar said:

This would be so hard to go through, but thank goodness they got out of there! Looking at the beautiful family photo arrangement above the water, it made me think how they still have the most important thing.  I hope the water goes down soon and that it won't take too long to get the help they need.  

I just drove for Uber and Lyft today. My first two rides were for people who lost their vehicle due to flooding. The second of these two rides was a couple staying and the man's parent's home since the home they were in flooded. The home the man's parents in was in an elevated part of the neighborhood so their home was spared flooding. The homes in the lower level where we entered were flooded. There were folks already dragging furniture and mattresses to the curb and the flood line of those homes was a bout three feet high. This was in the Woodlands which you may or may not be familiar with.

[jkwilliams]

I'm heading down to Houston on Friday to help with the cleanup. Wish me luck.

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, rongo said:

This is one of those great open questions for discussion within the Church, and people's views differ widely on this (setting aside Catholic and Protestant Christianity and just considering Mormonism). Some Mormons believe that it is impossible to change God's mind or to get him to take a course of action. This is Elder McConkie's view in the Bible Dictionary (the purpose of prayer isn't to get an outcome, but to align our wills with God's). Others believe that our prayers definitely can have an impact --- and that outcomes can depend on praying at all, and standing/sincerity/worthiness. I am definitely in the latter camp.

I love Lou Midgley's oft-expressed thought that stories are much more important in Mormonism than systematic theology. What we learn from the stories in the scriptures are the core of Mormonism, much more than doctrine. Stories like Abraham negotiating with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, or Moses talking God "down from the ledge" and convincing him to change his mind about destroying Israel and starting over with another people (Exodus 32 and Numbers 14 --- "And the Lord repented of the evil that he had thought to do unto his people" and "I have pardoned according to thy word") teach this principle of effecacious petitionary prayer. 

I, for one, firmly believe (and have seen the fruit of) that I can go to my Father with something that is very important to me and ask him, and that he can grant it ---- sometimes miraculously. This is much more comforting to me than simply seeing prayer as a means of aligning my will with what is already going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. Talk about stoicism!

 

3 hours ago, rongo said:

You're correct. He does indeed allow for the realization of blessings to be contingent on our asking for them. This isn't as harsh as I remembered.

I still disagree with him that we can't get God to change his mind/will, at times (cf. scriptural precedent).

"I am definitely in the latter camp....I still disagree with him that we can't get God to change his mind/will, at times (cf. scriptural precedent)." - I agree.

"1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish’s belly,

2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

(Jonah 2)

"4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

(snip)

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

(Jonah 3)

 

[Darren10]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I'm heading down to Houston on Friday to help with the cleanup. Wish me luck.

Mormon helping hands are waiting.

[The Nehor]

I think God changes his mind is an inaccurate way of putting it. God knows the end from the beginning so he does not decide on a course of action and then when a request is made changes it at that point.

Instead God can hear all our prayers from the beginning and factors all of them into every decision God makes. In this way we can influence God's decisions but we do not change his mind at some point in time. He was always going to do it that way because we prayed.

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi: Your comment helps me a lot. The contrast between doctrine and stories is very interesting to me. I love stories and am an avid story teller- especially about Mormon history. But, I have to also realize that doctrine is very important to me. That is one reason I can tell great Mormon stories, and pull my hair out trying to understand Mormon doctrine - its origin and its changes over the years. I wonder if there are any talks or books about how Mormon doctrine has morphed from 1830 to 2017. Perhaps even more importantly how Mormon doctrine is codified and defined?  Oh well, I still love stories. They are what makes us, us. They are what adds the human touch to all of this. Thanks for your post. 

I wrote you as reply last night on your own first thread which may help you sorting out deciding on Mormon doctrine. But my stupid dumb dumb computer did not post it even after two tries. I saved half of it on Word so when I get around to it I'll try to finish the saved portion and repost. But, basically, I think it is far better to focus on LDS scripture t learn "what Mormons believe" rather than things like "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie. that book, ironically is not "Mormon doctrine" in and of itself though much of it can (and should be n my opinion) be used to help correlate with what is "Mormon doctrine". So, stick to the 'Standard Works": The bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price as well as declarations unanimously signed by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.