Duncan Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Nope, but clean up will mean stripping a lot of stuff down. The hardest part after rebuilding the walls is getting rid of the smell. I'm sure though they'll have no problem getting help doing all that!
Marginal Gains Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 Why didn’t this prayer work? “We pray that all who look upon this house may do so with respect. Hold back the hand of the vandal and the spoiler that its beauty shall not be marred and its sanctity violated.” http://ldschurchtemples.org/houston/prayer/
jkwilliams Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 Looks like I'll be driving to Houston on Saturday. We decided to give Matt and Mary our second car. Feels good to be able to help. 3
Popular Post rongo Posted August 31, 2017 Popular Post Posted August 31, 2017 24 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Why didn’t this prayer work? “We pray that all who look upon this house may do so with respect. Hold back the hand of the vandal and the spoiler that its beauty shall not be marred and its sanctity violated.” http://ldschurchtemples.org/houston/prayer/ I don't think this qualifies as "the hand of the vandal and the spoiler" or "its sanctity violated." Do you? But, even then, I don't think dedicatory prayers are magical talismans guaranteeing no natural disasters befalling them. 5
Marginal Gains Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, rongo said: I don't think this qualifies as "the hand of the vandal and the spoiler" or "its sanctity violated." Do you? But, even then, I don't think dedicatory prayers are magical talismans guaranteeing no natural disasters befalling them. If a prayer from a Prophet cannot protect the temple, what is the perceived benefit for the temple from members praying for it?
bluebell Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 24 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: If a prayer from a Prophet cannot protect the temple, what is the perceived benefit for the temple from members praying for it? Prayers from prophets are no different than prayers from us. They are still contingent upon God's will. 2
Marginal Gains Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: Prayers from prophets are no different than prayers from us. They are still contingent upon God's will. Then they don’t matter.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: If a prayer from a Prophet cannot protect the temple, what is the perceived benefit for the temple from members praying for it? God hears all sincere prayers, but He will answer them in His own way, though it may not be clear to the understanding of mortal beings with their limited capacity. The point of prayer is to secure for oneself and others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional upon our asking for them (see the "Prayer" entry in the Bible Dictionary). Ergo, the goal of our prayers should be to unify our desires and objectives with the Father's. Perhaps the prayers for the preservation of the temple won't result in a tempering of the weather but instead, in facilitating and guiding the necessary cleanup and repair afterward. Edited September 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Marginal Gains said: Then they don’t matter. Yes they do. They are an effort to unify our will with the Father's . And they build our faith. See my last post. Edited August 31, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Marginal Gains Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: God hears all sincere prayers, but He will answer them in His own way, though it may not be clear to the understanding of mortal beings with their limited capacity. The point of prayer is to secure for oneself and others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional upon our asking for them (see the "Prayer: entry in the Bible Dictionary). Ergo, the goal of our prayers should be to unify our desires and objectives with the Father's. Perhaps the prayers for the preservation of the temple won't result in a tempering of the weather but instead, in facilitating and guiding the necessary cleanup and repair afterward. If members don’t pray for it, will the temple not get cleaned up and repaired?
rongo Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 30 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: If a prayer from a Prophet cannot protect the temple, what is the perceived benefit for the temple from members praying for it? I'm still not seeing your connecting the dots from flood damage to "the hand of the vandal and the spoiler" or "its sanctity violated." Aren't you stretching big-time to try to discount dedicatory prayers as worthless? You could at least pick something that actually was the thing prayed about. 2
Marginal Gains Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 Just now, rongo said: I'm still not seeing your connecting the dots from flood damage to "the hand of the vandal and the spoiler" or "its sanctity violated." Aren't you stretching big-time to try to discount dedicatory prayers as worthless? You could at least pick something that actually was the thing prayed about. Do you not think the sanctity of the temple has been violated by the flood water? If the sanctity of the temple hasn’t been violated, it won’t need re-dedicating. in 2016 it was claimed prayers saved the same temple from flooding, so why didn’t prayers save it this time? Were people not praying?
rongo Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Do you not think the sanctity of the temple has been violated by the flood water? If the sanctity of the temple hasn’t been violated, it won’t need re-dedicating. No, I don't think its sanctity has been violated at all by flood water. The rededication is necessitated by the construction work necessary to repair the flood damage, but the flood doesn't desecrate it. You gonna stretch to call this vandalism? in 2016 it was claimed prayers saved the same temple from flooding, so why didn’t prayers save it this time? Were people not praying? Where are you getting this expectation that if "people were praying," God would never let anything happen? I don't know any believer that believes that. Edited August 31, 2017 by rongo 3
Popular Post bluebell Posted August 31, 2017 Popular Post Posted August 31, 2017 35 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Then they don’t matter. That kind of reasoning would be like a child deciding that asking their parents for things "doesn't matter" because they don't get everything they ask for. Would that be a reasonable conclusion for the child to make? 5
bluebell Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 38 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Do you not think the sanctity of the temple has been violated by the flood water? If the sanctity of the temple hasn’t been violated, it won’t need re-dedicating. in 2016 it was claimed prayers saved the same temple from flooding, so why didn’t prayers save it this time? Were people not praying? It would need to be re-dedicated because non-temple-recommend-holding people will have to go inside of it to rebuild it. Flood waters don't violate anything
Jeanne Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Looks like I'll be driving to Houston on Saturday. We decided to give Matt and Mary our second car. Feels good to be able to help. I missed you jk..be careful in your travels. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 57 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: If members don’t pray for it, will the temple not get cleaned up and repaired? Perhaps. But we pray in any case to show our faith and to open the way for blessings that Heavenly Father might have in store for us.
Calm Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Why didn’t this prayer work? Dedicatory prayers work like "Get out of jail free" cards, only once per prayer. Got used up last year, so temple is toast this year. 4
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: If a prayer from a Prophet cannot protect the temple, what is the perceived benefit for the temple from members praying for it? Prayers are a request. Not a demand. We are not that arrogant.
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Perhaps. But we pray in any case to show our faith and to open the way for blessings that Heavenly Father might have in store for us. Perhaps? Now who’s lacking candour.... Heavenly Father withholds blessings unless we ask him for them?
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 5 hours ago, The Nehor said: Prayers are a request. Not a demand. We are not that arrogant. So if you pray to request protection for the temple, and the temple doesn’t get protected, what’s that telling you?
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 8 hours ago, bluebell said: That kind of reasoning would be like a child deciding that asking their parents for things "doesn't matter" because they don't get everything they ask for. Would that be a reasonable conclusion for the child to make? Actually, its more akin to a parent requesting a child ask them for things in a certain way, the child complying yet still only receiving the things the parent had decided to give them in the first place regardless of the request. The request is irrelevant to the receipt of the thing.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Perhaps? Now who’s lacking candour.... Heavenly Father withholds blessings unless we ask him for them? I don't get how you think my response lacks candor. I am in earnest, I assure you. But I can't predict the future. Heavenly Father expects us to pray for things we need as a means of building our faith, uniting our will with His and strengthening our relationship with Him. Edited September 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: So if you pray to request protection for the temple, and the temple doesn’t get protected, what’s that telling you? Only that in this instance God has chosen to answer the prayer in a manner different than what had been anticipated or hoped for. The reason will be clear at some point to those wait on the Lord. Maybe it's to fortify the lesson taught in James 1:3-4. Moreover, God has already showered blessings upon His people in other ways. The Church is prosperous enough that the needed cleanup and repairs to the temple can probably be undertaken without great hardship. It's as if the Church is self-insured against occurrences like this. And since the expense will undoubtedly be met from the tithing funds of the Church, there will be no need to divert humanitarian funds that are needed to help the victims suffering from the flooding. Edited September 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Actually, its more akin to a parent requesting a child ask them for things in a certain way, the child complying yet still only receiving the things the parent had decided to give them in the first place regardless of the request. The request is irrelevant to the receipt of the thing. Your analogy fails. It is like the parent responding to the child in a way that the parent knows is in the child's best interest, even though the parent's intent is not immediately clear to the child. Edited September 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Recommended Posts