Scott Lloyd Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Duncan said: I'm sure though they'll have no problem getting help doing all that! When I went to Baton Rouge last year to cover the cleanup efforts by Church members in the wake of flooding, a lot of what they were doing was going to the homes of residents and "gutting" the structures -- that is, stripping away the drywall down to the framing in preparation for installation of new walls. 2
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your analogy fails. It is like the parent responding to the child in a way that the parent knows is in the child's best interest, even though the parent's intent is not immediately clear to the child. Your analogy fails. In terms of responding to prayers, God is an inconsistent parent. Making inconsistent decisions regardless of the child’s behaviour is consistent. And worse, he makes different decisions for different children, even though the children’s behaviour is the same. Like punishing one child with an early bed time, even though both children had requested to stay up late. And then doesn’t even give an explanation as to why. Edited September 1, 2017 by Marginal Gains
Scott Lloyd Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 19 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Your analogy fails. In terms of responding to prayers, God is an inconsistent parent. Making inconsistent decisions regardless of the child’s behaviour is consistent. And worse, he makes different decisions for different children, even though the children’s behaviour is the same. Like punishing one child with an early bed time, even though both children had requested to stay up late. And then doesn’t even give an explanation as to why. You see Him as an inconsistent parent because you, like all mortals, lack the capacity and knowledge to comprehend His thoughts. We are like a 2-year-old who is focused on his own immediate gratification and lacks the maturity, growth and understanding to see that the parent is acting in his best interest. We need to be like Nephi who said (paraphrasing here), I know that God loves Hiis children, nevertheless I don't grasp the meaning of everything. 2
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: So if you pray to request protection for the temple, and the temple doesn’t get protected, what’s that telling you? God chose not to answer that prayer in that particular instance the way we requested. Am I supposed to wring my hands weeping while lamenting that prayers are pointless? Cuz I am not going to do that. 1
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, The Nehor said: God chose not to answer that prayer in that particular instance the way we requested. Am I supposed to wring my hands weeping while lamenting that prayers are pointless? Cuz I am not going to do that. So, if the people in Huston prayed for their lives to be saved, but subsequently died, is that then because God chose not to save them?
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: You see Him as an inconsistent parent because you, like all mortals, lack the capacity and knowledge to comprehend His thoughts. We are like a 2-year-old who is focused on his own immediate gratification and lacks the maturity, growth and understanding to see that the parent is acting in his best interest. We need to be like Nephi who said (paraphrasing here), I know that God loves Hiis children, nevertheless I don't grasp the meaning of everything. I see him as an inconsistent parent because, based upon what I see and experience, He is inconsistent in His dealings with people. People pray for safety, some He saves, some He doesn’t. Without any consistent rationale that we can comprehend, and if we cannot comprehend it we are left with what we do comprehend - an inconsistent parent. You might be like a 2 year old focused upon immediate gratification and lack maturity, growth and understanding, but I’m certainly not. However, if portraying me as that helps you come to terms with Gods inconsistency, well just keep on supping the baby formula.
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said: So, if the people in Huston prayed for their lives to be saved, but subsequently died, is that then because God chose not to save them? I think you meant Houston. Huston Idaho was not in the path of the storm. in answer to your question, yes. God could have saved them but chose not to.
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said: I see him as an inconsistent parent because, based upon what I see and experience, He is inconsistent in His dealings with people. People pray for safety, some He saves, some He doesn’t. Without any consistent rationale that we can comprehend, and if we cannot comprehend it we are left with what we do comprehend - an inconsistent parent. You might be like a 2 year old focused upon immediate gratification and lack maturity, growth and understanding, but I’m certainly not. However, if portraying me as that helps you come to terms with Gods inconsistency, well just keep on supping the baby formula. I think you overrate your maturity by a considerable margin if you want God to answer every prayer as the petitioner wishes no matter the circumstances. Does baby want a simple universe that always does whatever he selfishly wants? I think someone needs a nap.
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 17 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think you overrate your maturity by a considerable margin if you want God to answer every prayer as the petitioner wishes no matter the circumstances. Does baby want a simple universe that always does whatever he selfishly wants? I think someone needs a nap. Where have I said that I want God to grant every prayer, every time, no matter the circumstances? I’m talking about there being some perceived consistency in the decision making, rather than how it currently looks - which is pure random chance with no divine intervention. One could pray to a Magic 8 ball and prayers would still be granted at their current frequency and pattern.
rongo Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Where have I said that I want God to grant every prayer, every time, no matter the circumstances? Help us out here. You're harping on God not answering a prayer at a specific time and under specific circumstances. And you're asking where you've said that?
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Where have I said that I want God to grant every prayer, every time, no matter the circumstances? I’m talking about there being some perceived consistency in the decision making, rather than how it currently looks - which is pure random chance with no divine intervention. One could pray to a Magic 8 ball and prayers would still be granted at their current frequency and pattern. There is no perceived consistency. Nor do religious people expect there to be. You are building a straw man and beating it to death. We are all impressed with your prowess in doing so but nobody cares about the thing you are beating up.
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: There is no perceived consistency. Nor do religious people expect there to be. You are building a straw man and beating it to death. We are all impressed with your prowess in doing so but nobody cares about the thing you are beating up. Religious people don’t expect God to be consistent? And you don’t speak on their behalf, you speak for you. So you don’t expect God to be consistent. Good to know. What’s the straw man you think I’ve built and shown such prowess beating to death but about which you don’t care but keep replying about?
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Religious people don’t expect God to be consistent? And you don’t speak on their behalf, you speak for you. So you don’t expect God to be consistent. Good to know. What’s the straw man you think I’ve built and shown such prowess beating to death but about which you don’t care but keep replying about? I said no "perceived consistency" As to the rest:
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, rongo said: Help us out here. You're harping on God not answering a prayer at a specific time and under specific circumstances. And you're asking where you've said that? I’m saying God is inconsistent. If prayer kept the temple safe in 2016, members would rightly hold the expectation that prayer would protect it in 2017.
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I said no "perceived consistency" As to the rest: Isn’t mocking me personally via a meme a banned behaviour on the board?
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: I’m saying God is inconsistent. If prayer kept the temple safe in 2016, members would rightly hold the expectation that prayer would protect it in 2017. Yet they do not hold such a notion. Why? Edited September 1, 2017 by The Nehor
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Marginal Gains said: Isn’t mocking me personally via a meme a banned behaviour on the board? Not sure. Let's find out shall we?
Marginal Gains Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yet they do not hold such a notion. Why? Great question - got an answer?
The Nehor Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 Just now, Marginal Gains said: Great question - got an answer? Yes.
bluebell Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Actually, its more akin to a parent requesting a child ask them for things in a certain way, the child complying yet still only receiving the things the parent had decided to give them in the first place regardless of the request. The request is irrelevant to the receipt of the thing. That doesn't make any sense so i'm guessing that you don't have any children. Most parents require their children to ask for things in a certain way (good manners, respectfully, etc.) but even when the child asks in the required way it still doesn't mean they will get it. Children only get the things their parents decide to give them, regardless of the request. That's Good Parenting 101. Besides that, God gives blessings all the time that weren't asked for, just like parents do.
Navidad Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 On 8/31/2017 at 5:07 PM, bluebell said: It would need to be re-dedicated because non-temple-recommend-holding people will have to go inside of it to rebuild it. Flood waters don't violate anything Interesting point. If I were to walk into the temple in Colonia Juarez tomorrow, what about me would "violate" it. Such a harsh word.
Marginal Gains Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, bluebell said: That doesn't make any sense so i'm guessing that you don't have any children. Most parents require their children to ask for things in a certain way (good manners, respectfully, etc.) but even when the child asks in the required way it still doesn't mean they will get it. Children only get the things their parents decide to give them, regardless of the request. That's Good Parenting 101. Besides that, God gives blessings all the time that weren't asked for, just like parents do. Isn’t good parenting about being consistent? So a child knows that in a certain situation how the parent will behave? For instance, if the house rule is that if you eat your vegetables and say please and thank you you get dessert, but then the outcome to eating your vegetables and saying please and than you only results in dessert on sporadic occasions, is that a good way of reinforcing good behaviours in a child? Edited September 2, 2017 by Marginal Gains
Scott Lloyd Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 58 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Isn’t good parenting about being consistent? So a child knows that in a certain situation how the parent will behave? A child who is too young or immature to grasp a parent's reason for granting or withholding a favor is not in a position to determine whether or not a parent is being "consistent". The reasoning that constitutes the consistency of the parent's actions may be beyond the grasp of the child.
Marginal Gains Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: A child who is too young or immature to grasp a parent's reason for granting or withholding a favor is not in a position to determine whether or not a parent is being "consistent". The reasoning that constitutes the consistency of the parent's actions may be beyond the grasp of the child. But we aren’t 2 year olds. And we do recognise inconsistency. What we don’t understand is God’s rationale for being inconsistent.
Marginal Gains Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 17 hours ago, bluebell said: That doesn't make any sense so i'm guessing that you don't have any children. That’s a pretty poor and unnecessarily directly personal response, in my opinion.
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