Building mortal into God

[stemelbow]

1. most good people in the world have no part in the Church; 2. the Church is not populated with the most exceptional, necessarily, in spite of many a Mormon's seeming opinion, people.  And so I often wonder, and perhaps lament, what benefit is Church to us. 

Some say, "because it builds us into better people".

Some say, "because we know more stuff" than others. 

Some say, "because we get to participate in ordinances and others do not"

Some say, "we are significantly blessed because we were so faithful before this world was.  That's why we're here in this day and age...we're just better than everyone else"

Some say, "priesthood in our lives blesses us, because it helps us learn to be like God" or something.

If you've heard these or anything like these then of course, you know Mormonism.  That's kind of what we go on these days.  Every meeting I head to, every talk I hear, nearly all threads in this place mention this stuff trying to tell people it's the bestest to be Mormon. 

Last week I ran across this article.  I always have this sympathy to women in the Church, in that I think the Church is not the best regarding women's issues, or the treatment of women.  But here is a woman, whose telling everyone else she's a strong woman, as opposed to many other weak women, I guess, that stays in the Church.  She tells us the virtue of doing so. 

In defining a strong woman, says she:

Quote

I think this is at the core of every strong woman: This knowing. This fire. This sense of eternal destiny. This greatness.

I have to admit.  I don't know what she means by a strong woman, necessarily.  (Maybe as the world defines strong?)  She defines a strong woman above as one who knows that inside her is greatness.  Weak women need not apply, I guess?  I'm saddened by the notion, I guess.  Weak women in the Church and elsewhere don't know greatness.  We all can't have greatness inside us else it wouldn't be so great, I guess? 

Later she says,
 

Quote

I stay because I know — have always known — that there is greatness in me. And through the gift of the Holy Ghost, through yes, I have learned what that greatness is. That in addition to the transcendent gifts I already possess, there is more inside of me that is just beyond my reach. Present but hidden. Real, powerful, essential and necessary, but veiled. Something new and great that builds on the greatness I already have the privilege to exercise. By the power of yes, I see not subjugation but preparation and the promise of more to come.

I feel a bit of contradiction, here.  Earlier she says a strong woman is one who knows the greatness.  Here she suggests because of the "gift of the Holy Ghost" she has learned what greatness inside her is--by and large most women who might be considered strong don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost as she seems to define it.  I don't think she's saying all women in the Church are strong or great, nor that all women anywhere are strong or great. 

It seems to me, and this is no offense to her, because I'm sure she's great, but what she alludes to as strong and great is common to many women.  The Church had no part in most women's lives, so what has the Church really brought?  She seems to in part claim the Church has helped build her, but in another way suggest it does not build strong women or greatness.  What if there are women more strong and more great than her, who have nothing to do with Church?  Might she be better off leaving the Church so she can be as strong and great as them? 

I admit I'm quite put off by the more modern approach to religion that the Church seems to have embraced.  I still think the weakest amongst us are as noble as any others.  I still think any saving that's going to happen, in the end, is not us, but God.  I still think we lack too much to try and tell others we have more inside us, on account of our chosen religion.  I just think/hope God is more love than that.  If not, it all feels useless to me.

So where do we all stand on this? 

[ksfisher]

Are you aware of this thread?

Edited August 14, 2017 by ksfisher

[stemelbow]

Thanks for the link.  None of what I'm talking about was addressed it seems, aside from Tacenda's comment about greatness.  I'd appreciate people's thoughts.  My post has less to do with the article then might meat the eye.

[thesometimesaint]

None of us is Great. The Church isn't a rest home for the already Great. It is a hospital for the spiritually wounded. We are trying to become a God to serve the most high God.

SEE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=KJV

Edited August 14, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Jeanne]

36 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks for the link.  None of what I'm talking about was addressed it seems, aside from Tacenda's comment about greatness.  I'd appreciate people's thoughts.  My post has less to do with the article then might meat the eye.

An awful lot of strong women have left the church..of course..that makes them weak??  In my opinion, if humility is sufficient..greatness will cease to exist.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

1. most good people in the world have no part in the Church; 2. the Church is not populated with the most exceptional, necessarily, in spite of many a Mormon's seeming opinion, people.  And so I often wonder, and perhaps lament, what benefit is Church to us. 

***

I admit I'm quite put off by the more modern approach to religion that the Church seems to have embraced.  I still think the weakest amongst us are as noble as any others.  I still think any saving that's going to happen, in the end, is not us, but God.  I still think we lack too much to try and tell others we have more inside us, on account of our chosen religion.  I just think/hope God is more love than that.  If not, it all feels useless to me.

So where do we all stand on this? 

The Church is of benefit to us (LDS) because she is the kingdom of God on earth, the vehicle through which we help others prepare to receive the Gospel. Without the Church, we would revert to the processes the Lord relied on before the Restoration, which would ultimately lead to the establishment of the very same kingdom of God on earth anyway, for the same benefit.

He always draws others into His kingdom with the intent and invitation to learn to be like Him. He is found in the details of His children's lives no matter how far removed they might be from the kingdom of God on earth, for every child of God lives in their particular “times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him…” (Acts 17:26-27).

 

[The Nehor]

The power of goodness is universally available. Only LDS have the power of godliness. We definitely do not all demonstrate it and some struggle to even be good but that power is real and is worth acquiring and using.

Edited August 14, 2017 by The Nehor

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

............................................................................  

I admit I'm quite put off by the more modern approach to religion that the Church seems to have embraced.  I still think the weakest amongst us are as noble as any others.  I still think any saving that's going to happen, in the end, is not us, but God.  I still think we lack too much to try and tell others we have more inside us, on account of our chosen religion.  I just think/hope God is more love than that.  If not, it all feels useless to me.

So where do we all stand on this? 

There are lots of points of view about what the LDS Church is and what it isn't.  Much of it is just silly, and you seem to emphasize the most ignorant and childish views, with a predilection for a negative conclusion -- having constructed a bunch of strawman versions of Mormonism.

You also speak aimlessly about a woman who feels that Mormonism helps her be great, but you not only call that into serious question, but you seem unhappy that she has a positive view of the LDS faith.  If a Mormon woman feels great, you condemn the Church, and if a Mormon woman feels weak, you condemn the Church.  Heads you win, tails we lose.

So you don't like Mormonism.  So it feels useless to you.  So what?  You treat it like a high school popularity contest, all the while coming up with one false version of Mormonism after another.  Perception is everything, right?  And there's no accounting for taste.

[Meerkat]

I like the topic of Building Mortal into God

The Mormons call it Exaltation.  The Catholics call it Divination.  Whatever the name, mortals have the opportunity to learn of Christ and ultimately, as stated in 1 John 3:2 "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

I struggle with being kind.  I love the saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."  I think thats a good way to live.  I've seen people disagree here in a most pleasant and diplomatic manner.  Yet I have a hard time holding my tongue sometimes.  When I do learn to do that, I think I will be moving toward  the path of Mortal into God.

James 3:2 says "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."  I want to be a perfect man, but feel I have a tremendous long way to go.

Here are some other thoughts to live by I'd like to learn to follow from Gordon B. Hinckley that he received from his father, Bryant S. Hinckley:

"Cynics do not contribute.  Skeptics do not create.  Doubters do not achieve."  

I want to contribute.  I want to create, and I want to achieve.  When I begin to do those things, I think I will be moving toward the path of Mortal into God.

Obviously, I have a long way to go.

[carbon dioxide]

9 hours ago, stemelbow said:

1. most good people in the world have no part in the Church; 2. the Church is not populated with the most exceptional, necessarily, in spite of many a Mormon's seeming opinion, people.  And so I often wonder, and perhaps lament, what benefit is Church to us.

It does not matter how good a person it.  It does not matter what accomplishments a person does in life.  None of that matters without the atonement along with the temple ordinances.  What benefit is the Church to us?  In this mortal existence, if offers perspective on life, peace, understanding, and how to live good.  It instructs us how to prepare for the biggest interview of all.  That being standing before God to be judged.  The biggest benefit of the Church is not realized until one passes into the spirit world.  That is where the great separation occurs.  The rich, the famous, the intellectuals and the rest who did not have the gospel all go to the same dark place.  The righteous enter the paradise part of the spirit world.  Find the most exceptional person who is outside the Church you can find.  When they die, they will be utterly dependent on the some regular, humble person who accepted the gospel in mortality to teach them the gospel.  They can't get out of prison without them.

Edited August 15, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[katherine the great]

I think the church does produce many very fine, strong women. I see strong women in all walks of life; in church, in the community, in the workforce and in academia. The difference I see in many religious and community minded women is that they tend to put that strength into helping others and consciously try to make the world a better place. I see a woeful lack of that quality in the women I encounter in the workforce and in academia (in general). I don't think this strength is unique to LDS women. I think its more connected to wanting to live a very purposeful life and viewing adversity as a learning opportunity. I do wonder though how much of this has to do with basic personality. Maybe certain types of personalities find joy in church and community and so we find more of those types in those places. The chicken or the egg? 

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So where do we all stand on this? 

This thread concerns compassion.  The mercy side that we all need.
Not all of us are great.  Church members aren't necessarily any better than non-members.  We all rely on the same Christ for salvation and we all are lost without him.

But acknowledging this fact doesn't negate the path God has laid out.
The other side of the the compassion coin will always be law.  And whether we are willing to admit it or not, while the LDS membership may need mercy as much as the non-member due to imperfection, the LDS membership is still following the path to God better, obeying the laws better, and learning the truth better.

We may not be better, but perfection eludes everyone.  If anything, we should be more aware of how far from perfect we are, given that we are in possession of better knowledge.

[3DOP]

stemelbow...I don't follow how the thread title relates to what I perceive as the subject matter. Sorry. I see you have opponents. I know how they press for attention. I am confident there is an explanation. But for now, I just don't understand what you mean.

Edited August 15, 2017 by 3DOP

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Weak women need not apply, I guess?  I'm saddened by the notion, I guess.  Weak women in the Church and elsewhere don't know greatness.  We all can't have greatness inside us else it wouldn't be so great, I guess?

You do seem to guess a lot...

So what exactly does the Church offer? My answer to that question -- and the answers from those I know best -- comes from personal experience. Exactly seven days ago, I helped bury one of my good mates. He joined the Church nine years ago. He spent about two years living with me. He told me one night that he loved the Church so much because it made him more. Many things, he said, made him less. Most things just left him untouched. Occasionally, he said, one finds something that makes a person more, and then it is wise to hold onto that thing with all one has. He had trouble holding on all the time. But every time he let go, he became less. And every time he came back, he became more. He spent the last six months of his life living with a good family in our stake. He was preparing to go back to the temple. He loved the 'moreness' of it. He didn't make it.

But I share his assessment. I've been in and out. I've exercised faith and wallowed in doubt. I've sinned and repented. I've laid nervous hands on many heads and waited for words to come. I've watched those words be fulfilled in every detail. I've heard the voice of the Spirit, the voice of God, and the voices of angels. I prefer in over out. I've learnt to love faith 1,000 times more than doubt. I'm excellent at both sinning and repenting, but one leaves me more, and one leaves me less, so I choose the 'more' option more often than the 'less' option.

And I belong to a vibrant, thriving community of people whose experiences are identical to mine. Whenever we get together, we talk about the miracle of it all: how it works in our lives. We can finish each other's sentences because our experiences have all been so similar. We nod in knowing agreement with both casual comments and formal testimonies. We recognise both the voice of God and the familiarity of our own private experiences in the words of the living prophets. We see visions and dream dreams.

Does this all exist outside of the Church? Yes, in part. I still haven't found the complete deal anywhere else. To whom shall I go? I know my answer.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You do seem to guess a lot...

So what exactly does the Church offer? My answer to that question -- and the answers from those I know best -- comes from personal experience. Exactly seven days ago, I helped bury one of my good mates. He joined the Church nine years ago. He spent about two years living with me. He told me one night that he loved the Church so much because it made him more. Many things, he said, made him less. Most things just left him untouched. Occasionally, he said, one finds something that makes a person more, and then it is wise to hold onto that thing with all one has. He had trouble holding on all the time. But every time he let go, he became less. And every time he came back, he became more. He spent the last six months of his life living with a good family in our stake. He was preparing to go back to the temple. He loved the 'moreness' of it. He didn't make it.

But I share his assessment. I've been in and out. I've exercised faith and wallowed in doubt. I've sinned and repented. I've laid nervous hands on many heads and waited for words to come. I've watched those words be fulfilled in every detail. I've heard the voice of the Spirit, the voice of God, and the voices of angels. I prefer in over out. I've learnt to love faith 1,000 times more than doubt. I'm excellent at both sinning and repenting, but one leaves me more, and one leaves me less, so I choose the 'more' option more often than the 'less' option.

And I belong to a vibrant, thriving community of people whose experiences are identical to mine. Whenever we get together, we talk about the miracle of it all: how it works in our lives. We can finish each other's sentences because our experiences have all been so similar. We nod in knowing agreement with both casual comments and formal testimonies. We recognise both the voice of God and the familiarity of our own private experiences in the words of the living prophets. We see visions and dream dreams.

Does this all exist outside of the Church? Yes, in part. I still haven't found the complete deal anywhere else. To whom shall I go? I know my answer.

Beautifully and aptly put.  Thank you.

[Atheist Mormon]

17 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Building mortal into God
So where do we all stand on this? 

Like you I lost a very good friend recently.  As horrible as it sounds, death is a recycling process of Evolution.... One of the most treasured concepts I remember was Joseph Smith's infusion of mortality of Gods into Christian doctrine. As I grew older the concept of death (coupled with my atheism) got really brutal. But end of day (every day) I realize this is a gift I shall enjoy, I did nothing to earn it. But I like to read your thoughts, enjoy the insights I once felt close to my heart.

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The power of goodness is universally available. Only LDS have the power of godliness. We definitely do not all demonstrate it and some struggle to even be good but that power is real and is worth acquiring and using.

Feels a little too neat compared to what is reality, it seems to me.  What do you mean by the only LDS have the power of godliness?  Are you referencing the gift of the Holy Ghost?

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There are lots of points of view about what the LDS Church is and what it isn't.  Much of it is just silly, and you seem to emphasize the most ignorant and childish views, with a predilection for a negative conclusion -- having constructed a bunch of strawman versions of Mormonism.

You also speak aimlessly about a woman who feels that Mormonism helps her be great, but you not only call that into serious question, but you seem unhappy that she has a positive view of the LDS faith.  If a Mormon woman feels great, you condemn the Church, and if a Mormon woman feels weak, you condemn the Church.  Heads you win, tails we lose.

I don't condemn the Church.  I pointed out that everything she says regarding the Church is pie in the sky, at the very least, and is common to all women at most. 

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you don't like Mormonism.  So it feels useless to you.  So what?  You treat it like a high school popularity contest, all the while coming up with one false version of Mormonism after another.  Perception is everything, right?  And there's no accounting for taste.

I disagree with your perception of me. 

[stemelbow]

9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I like the topic of Building Mortal into God

The Mormons call it Exaltation.  The Catholics call it Divination.  Whatever the name, mortals have the opportunity to learn of Christ and ultimately, as stated in 1 John 3:2 "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

I struggle with being kind.  I love the saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."  I think thats a good way to live.  I've seen people disagree here in a most pleasant and diplomatic manner.  Yet I have a hard time holding my tongue sometimes.  When I do learn to do that, I think I will be moving toward  the path of Mortal into God.

James 3:2 says "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."  I want to be a perfect man, but feel I have a tremendous long way to go.

Here are some other thoughts to live by I'd like to learn to follow from Gordon B. Hinckley that he received from his father, Bryant S. Hinckley:

"Cynics do not contribute.  Skeptics do not create.  Doubters do not achieve."  

I want to contribute.  I want to create, and I want to achieve.  When I begin to do those things, I think I will be moving toward the path of Mortal into God.

Obviously, I have a long way to go.

Everyone has a long way to go.  That's the point.  You're not alone.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Feels a little too neat compared to what is reality, it seems to me.  What do you mean by the only LDS have the power of godliness?  Are you referencing the gift of the Holy Ghost?

No, it is only through the Priesthood that godliness is manifest. I am referencing the D&C. It may be neat but it is true as well.

[stemelbow]

9 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I think the church does produce many very fine, strong women. I see strong women in all walks of life; in church, in the community, in the workforce and in academia. The difference I see in many religious and community minded women is that they tend to put that strength into helping others and consciously try to make the world a better place.

Really?  you don't think those women in non religious communities do this too? 

9 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I see a woeful lack of that quality in the women I encounter in the workforce and in academia (in general).

hm...aren't many women in the workforce and academia also in religious communities?  These are some odd dichotomies you seem to be throwing out. 

9 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I don't think this strength is unique to LDS women. I think its more connected to wanting to live a very purposeful life and viewing adversity as a learning opportunity. I do wonder though how much of this has to do with basic personality. Maybe certain types of personalities find joy in church and community and so we find more of those types in those places. The chicken or the egg? 

 

[stemelbow]

Just now, The Nehor said:

No, it is only through the Priesthood that godliness is manifest. I am referencing the D&C. It may be neat but it is true as well.

I wish, but how does one recognize the power of godliness in another?  Are you saying if one gives blessings the power is there?  What about those blessings that are of none effect?  The ones where promising of healing is made but then death or sickness worsens. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I wish, but how does one recognize the power of godliness in another?  Are you saying if one gives blessings the power is there?  What about those blessings that are of none effect?  The ones where promising of healing is made but then death or sickness worsens. 

It does not really relate to blessings. It is something that can be acquired through service through the Priesthood and entering the Priesthood Prder through the temple.

[katherine the great]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Really?  you don't think those women in non religious communities do this too? 

hm...aren't many women in the workforce and academia also in religious communities?  These are some odd dichotomies you seem to be throwing out. 

 

I'm just pointing out my own observations. In my particular field, I don't encounter many professional women who are involved in community or religion. 

[stemelbow]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You do seem to guess a lot...

That, to me, is all we're all doing.  I know most don't couch in terms of guess, and instead speak in absolutes.  But I try not to, because as much as I want to know, I simply don't. 

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So what exactly does the Church offer? My answer to that question -- and the answers from those I know best -- comes from personal experience. Exactly seven days ago, I helped bury one of my good mates. He joined the Church nine years ago. He spent about two years living with me. He told me one night that he loved the Church so much because it made him more. Many things, he said, made him less. Most things just left him untouched. Occasionally, he said, one finds something that makes a person more, and then it is wise to hold onto that thing with all one has. He had trouble holding on all the time. But every time he let go, he became less. And every time he came back, he became more. He spent the last six months of his life living with a good family in our stake. He was preparing to go back to the temple. He loved the 'moreness' of it. He didn't make it.

Sorry to hear of your loss.  Truly.

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

But I share his assessment. I've been in and out. I've exercised faith and wallowed in doubt. I've sinned and repented. I've laid nervous hands on many heads and waited for words to come. I've watched those words be fulfilled in every detail. I've heard the voice of the Spirit, the voice of God, and the voices of angels. I prefer in over out. I've learnt to love faith 1,000 times more than doubt. I'm excellent at both sinning and repenting, but one leaves me more, and one leaves me less, so I choose the 'more' option more often than the 'less' option.

So if you are more, how do we compare that to those who have more but our outside the Church?  I mean your perception is your perception, your experience is your experience, but I'd wager whatever is more to you is had by many outside the Church as well.  God doesn't leave all without just because they have no dealings with the Church, I'd guess.  It feels like the benefit you describe can be had by anyone, in any walk of life, without the Church.  So while it's good for you, is it really a benefit or is it you just perceive it as a benefit without really knowing if it really is. 

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I belong to a vibrant, thriving community of people whose experiences are identical to mine. Whenever we get together, we talk about the miracle of it all: how it works in our lives. We can finish each other's sentences because our experiences have all been so similar. We nod in knowing agreement with both casual comments and formal testimonies. We recognise both the voice of God and the familiarity of our own private experiences in the words of the living prophets. We see visions and dream dreams.

Does this all exist outside of the Church? Yes, in part. I still haven't found the complete deal anywhere else. To whom shall I go? I know my answer.

But if true, then we'd see a marked difference in members who have more, as you put it, then those who are out fo the Church.  I simply don't see it.  do you?  are you more than everyone outside the Church?