Recent Survey (via Jana Reiss)

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know if I entirely agree.  I am an example of a Mormon who doesn't believe that homosexuality and gay marriage is a sin in all cases.  It is impossible for us to judge what light each individual has received.  For example, a born Unitarian Universalits, Buddhist, Reformed Jewish, or secularists would not necessarily be under condemnation for practicing homosexuality.  One cannot sin in ignorance of light.  It is impossible for us to judge at what point a person becomes accountable. 

Well, isn't it also possible that a born Mormon would not necessarily be under condemnation for practicing homosexuality?  What light must be attained before one will be condemned? 

[katherine the great]

Assuming the data is accurate (that's a big assumption for me), it sounds about right.  Younger LDS people are much more likely to accept gay marriage because they are likely to have openly gay friends and family members and they recognize that they are just people like everyone else--not perverts.  Older members are aware of how much our culture and traditional gender roles have changed in the past decades. I'm a bit old fashioned and I used to be more prone to reject gay marriage until I actually read the supreme court decision.  It pointed out that strict gender roles don't exist anymore in America.  Women work--sometimes even in dangerous and traditionally male jobs.  Men often stay at home with the kids.  If children can be raised with their needs for nurturing and support being met by two dads or two moms then there really can be no legal argument against legally recognizing the union. 

[Jeanne]

IMO.  Though morally...most..most LDS would not individually even like the idea of SSM/Gays.  That being said..legally, they are leaning to support because without it, they lose their own individual rights and as someone mentioned above, they really are not hurting anyone.  A new generation has seen a love for people with no conditions..scripture or not, their heart and perhaps their spirits tell them to love all is good thing.  Look at any other sin according to LDS doctrine..and they  are united in their love, forgiveness for others..now they see that in same sex love/marriage.  Now..loving all is easy...but now they are sustaining those who differ in thought and actions..but that is the way it should have been all along. The rights and law are joining with the law of the Lord.  Love ye one another.  There is repentance for those that have a desire...and there is a community in spirit for those who may not.  I know this doesn't all make sense but people are finally seeing people..instead of sin.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Jeanne

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well, isn't it also possible that a born Mormon would not necessarily be under condemnation for practicing homosexuality?  What light must be attained before one will be condemned? 

Yes, I think that is possible too.  I was just giving some more obvious examples.  It really is not for us to judge. 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I think that's true. But I'd really wonder whether those who are for SSM both spiritually and legally are active Mormons or not too.  I mean I think the big change here is among those Mormons who likely didn't attend anyway, or were iffy and maybe are iffy about their attendance.  That may be generalizing a bit because of course there will be exceptions.  I think we forget when things like this come up that many Mormons aren't active but still consider themselves MOrmon--and often they aren't active for a reason. 

Well, I don't know about that.  Unless the % of active/inactive members surveyed changed significantly from 2015 to 2016, then I wouldn't expect that this would impact the numbers. 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I know, I know, another SSM thread.  Because they always go so well and I never complain about the proliferation of them. 

But perhaps we can focus on WHY the Church membership views are changing instead of whether we think this is right/wrong or good/bad.
http://religionnews.com/2017/06/27/mormons-are-changing-their-tune-on-same-sex-marriage/

According to this survey about 1/3 of Mormons now favor SSM and barely more than half oppose it.  Now, the survey may have some issues (most do) but the change from last year is the indicator of interest assuming the survey was handled the same way both times.  We as members appear to be changing our views.

So without opening the debate about SSM itself, perhaps we can discuss the following:
1. WHY are members views changing so rapidly?
2. HOW do members reconcile the doctrinal disparity with Church teachings?
3. The Church is often accused of being afraid of nothing.  Is THIS what the Church really has to fear from the SSM movement?

 

 

1. Because members (along with the rest of society) are recognizing that a. SSM is legal, b. SSM is fair, & c. SSM of others doesn't directly impact upon other people's marriages or families. In short, they recognize that there is no real value, need, or justification for discriminating against people who simply want to be married.

2. SSM within society and culture has absolutely nothing to do with church teachings. It is a cultural reality. A person can simultaneously hold the view that individuals in SSM should not be discriminated against in society while maintaining the doctrinal view that the church determines its own views on what is and isn't sin.

3. I think the church is very afraid, as evidenced by its intense fight against SSM both in and out of the church. The more they fight against general fairness and equality in society, the more they will push the average member towards the more reasonable stance that couples should be able to determine for themselves how they live their lives and whether or not they marry. It is not up to a church to decide for others whether they should be allowed to or not.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I don't think that analogy holds up.  The teachings (policies? doctrines?) forbidding same-sex marriage are rooted in the ideas of an eternal and never-changing gender and sexual morality that forbids homosexuality in all times and places. 

As has been analogized countless times before, it is closer to adultery on the sin scale than eating herbs out of season, and I don't know any LDS that would think adultery was okay as long as you weren't Mormon.

For me, it is fornication (unless there is actual adultery involved), though of course if married, it is not in a legal sense or how people would generally understand it.   Adultery is significantly different and much, much worse, imo, as it is much more than having sex with someone you are not married to. Those who are not taught it is a sin will be judged by that, but it is a sin or at least a transgression if you (speaking generically) prefer to label sin without law as not sin, but transgression.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Calm

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Well, I don't know about that.  Unless the % of active/inactive members surveyed changed significantly from 2015 to 2016, then I wouldn't expect that this would impact the numbers. 

I meant to suggest that the views among the inactive, particularly on this issue change significantly in recent years.  It seems to be the case to me, but of course, I can only give my impressions based on what I've seen in my area.  5 years ago when I was going to those who we hadn't heard from in Church, it was likely they'd agree with the Church's stance on SSM.  Today, it's more likely they do not.  But in that same time, I doubt most active LDS in my area have changed their views regarding SSM--most, as I indicated, in my ward probably would say they don't support SSM.  And yet in those same 5 years, the activity rate seems to have remained pretty much the same.  I don't know that, at least in my area, many active Mormons have changed their views.  The results of the poll itself, if my area carries any credibility beyond here, might be that those LDS people who have not participated, at least not actively, have changed their views completely on this issue in recent years. 

But I could be wrong.  It might be that many more active Mormons also have changed their views.  But, if that's the case, then it may also be that far more inactive LDS don't consider themselves LDS at all. 

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I meant to suggest that the views among the inactive, particularly on this issue change significantly in recent years.  It seems to be the case to me, but of course, I can only give my impressions based on what I've seen in my area.  5 years ago when I was going to those who we hadn't heard from in Church, it was likely they'd agree with the Church's stance on SSM.  Today, it's more likely they do not.  But in that same time, I doubt most active LDS in my area have changed their views regarding SSM--most, as I indicated, in my ward probably would say they don't support SSM.  And yet in those same 5 years, the activity rate seems to have remained pretty much the same.  I don't know that, at least in my area, many active Mormons have changed their views.  The results of the poll itself, if my area carries any credibility beyond here, might be that those LDS people who have not participated, at least not actively, have changed their views completely on this issue in recent years. 

But I could be wrong.  It might be that many more active Mormons also have changed their views.  But, if that's the case, then it may also be that far more inactive LDS don't consider themselves LDS at all. 

I guess I've seen things a little differently in my conservative Utah ward.  Our HP group leader was talking about this just recently in the quorum about attending a SSM wedding and asked the group what they thought about this and how in times past he would have thought it inappropriate.  Many of the members in the quorum, even very orthodox types said they thought it was a matter of personal conscience and varied by circumstance, but I didn't hear anyone condemn the idea or say that going to the SSM ceremony was anti church or went against the brethren.  At least from my view, times are a chang'n even for conservative Utah Mormons.  

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Is a sample size of 700 statistically significant?

It's 1134 members. She's then breaking down by age. The smaller the group the less significant it becomes. 

The one caveat in things like this are that polls tend to be pretty inaccurate when people self-report things they think portray them as good or bad. So that's why one probably should dismiss say Pew accounts of tithe paying or temple recommends. They're unrealistically high and almost certainly reflect misreporting. Whether that's going on in this case is a bit more tricky to say. Although I do think the change is real.

As for why, in the space of about 15 years opposition to gay marriage went from mainstream (even Obama felt he had to express it) to completely bigoted. The social costs in many communities are high. There's also for the youth been a pretty unrelenting push in media over the issue. So it's hardly surprising.

Edited June 27, 2017 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

I think part of the reason that members are changing is that gay marriage has been normalized in our society.  Couple that with a doctrine that is not as supported as other things accepted by society but considered sin by the church (such as immorality, for example), and I think you get members who begin to accept the legitimacy of SSM who might not have under different circumstances.

 

[Duncan]

Something I wonder about is if members who support SSM will they stay in the Church? if they leave then those who remain presumably would be against it or apathetic. So, in 20 years attitudes may have changed in the Church but would they be around in the Church? time will tell I guess

[CV75]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

While the "how" and "why" questions would be a different study, it is amazing to have lived through such a dramatic shift on the issue.  If you had told me this was going to happen back in 1996 or even 2006, I would have thought you were crazy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/26/how-unbelievably-quickly-public-opinion-changed-on-gay-marriage-in-6-charts/

Wow, it's a chiasma!

[churchistrue]

I think a lot of it is personal experience. This is just my guess, so the actual data may not support it, but it seems like the instances of gay people coming "out" in the church are skyrocketing the last few years. I assume before that gay Mormons stayed in the closet and tried to live straight lives more often. Or maybe my observation is just way off. If you polled the same people "Do you personally know a gay Mormon?" That figure might also have jumped from about 26% to about 37%. When we know a gay Mormon, we see how unfair it is. We usually can see it's nothing they chose. We can see they're a good person. And we start to empathize with what a difficult life they've had and will have if they attempt to stay Mormon. That's also probably a lot why Millennials are so for it. They almost all have a gay friend. My kids do. 

[Gray]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

I don't think that analogy holds up.  The teachings (policies? doctrines?) forbidding same-sex marriage are rooted in the ideas of an eternal and never-changing gender and sexual morality that forbids homosexuality in all times and places. 

As has been analogized countless times before, it is closer to adultery on the sin scale than eating herbs out of season, and I don't know any LDS that would think adultery was okay as long as you weren't Mormon.

LDS teachings on homosexuality are pretty wholesale borrowed from conservative Christian thoughts on the subject, which are themselves based on passages from the Bible divorced from their historical context. Since unique LDS scripture is totally silent on homosexuality, the LDS Church is actually in a unique position to abandon the prohibition on gay marriage. Just blame previous teachings on the prevailing culture (conservative Christian culture, aka a legacy from the apostasy) and be done with it.

As far as why the rapid change - almost half of Republicans now favor gay marriage, and most US Mormons are Republicans.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

................................. perhaps we can focus on WHY the Church membership views are changing instead of whether we think this is right/wrong or good/bad.
http://religionnews.com/2017/06/27/mormons-are-changing-their-tune-on-same-sex-marriage/

According to this survey about 1/3 of Mormons now favor SSM and barely more than half oppose it.  Now, the survey may have some issues (most do) but the change from last year is the indicator of interest assuming the survey was handled the same way both times.  We as members appear to be changing our views.

So without opening the debate about SSM itself, perhaps we can discuss the following:
1. WHY are members views changing so rapidly?
2. HOW do members reconcile the doctrinal disparity with Church teachings?
3. The Church is often accused of being afraid of nothing.  Is THIS what the Church really has to fear from the SSM movement?

We might first want to ask whether the survey was valid:  For example, tolerating same sex marriage is not the same as favoring it.  And, when someone opposes SSM, does that mean they want it to be unlawful, or does it mean that they do not want to be part of a same sex marriage?  In a pluralistic and tolerant society such as ours (USA), shouldn't our views be broadminded and accepting of diverse lifestyles?  Does such tolerance mean that the LDS faith has to directly participate in SSM, and other unconventional behaviors?  Of course not.  It means that we afford others the same constitutional rights which we have, and that we will not try to interfere with their odd practices, as long as they afford us the same privilege.  Indeed, it is part of our religion:  Article of Faith #11, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."  Is that so difficult to understand and accept?

If the younger generation of Mormons is more accepting of the US Constitution, that is all well and good.  That does not mean that they have jettisoned the faith.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Like the WoW, its only against OUR Covenants, not against people not under the Covenant, Its not a sin for a non-Mormon to drink or smoke, only if we do it.

And yet the impacts of alcohol and tobacco use affect member and non-member alike, participant and non-participant too.

[Hamba Tuhan]

46 minutes ago, Gray said:

LDS teachings on homosexuality are pretty wholesale borrowed from conservative Christian thoughts on the subject, which are themselves based on passages from the Bible divorced from their historical context.

As already noted by Cinepro, LDS teachings on homosexuality are firmly grounded in unique Latter-day Saint doctrines on the pre-existence, the nature and origin of the human spirit, the nature and role of God, the role of the family in mortality and beyond, the purpose of life, temple covenants, etc. ... plus what, to me as a historian, is clearly a robust understanding of the historical context of socially and culturally constructed sexual identities.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[MormonVideoGame]

6 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Does the survey differentiate between secular vs. religious policy? I am inclined for its legalization politically/secularly, but am adamantly opposed morally/religiously. 

Why was the church (the kindgdom of God) oppose to the legalization of SSM? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Why was the church (the kindgdom of God) oppose to the legalization of SSM? 

I think the correct tense would be: 'Why is the Church opposed to the legalisation of SSM?'

Are you asking this question because you honestly don't know. Because if so, you may be inadvertently answering some of the OP's questions.

[katherine the great]

48 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We might first want to ask whether the survey was valid:  For example, tolerating same sex marriage is not the same as favoring it.  And, when someone opposes SSM, does that mean they want it to be unlawful, or does it mean that they do not want to be part of a same sex marriage?  In a pluralistic and tolerant society such as ours (USA), shouldn't our views be broadminded and accepting of diverse lifestyles?  Does such tolerance mean that the LDS faith has to directly participate in SSM, and other unconventional behaviors?  Of course not.  It means that we afford others the same constitutional rights which we have, and that we will not try to interfere with their odd practices, as long as they afford us the same privilege.  Indeed, it is part of our religion:  Article of Faith #11, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."  Is that so difficult to understand and accept?

If the younger generation of Mormons is more accepting of the US Constitution, that is all well and good.  That does not mean that they have jettisoned the faith.

It looks like the terminology used (at least in the graphs) is "oppose" or "support". I don't know what the actual words of the question were. Maybe there wasn't an option for those who simply tolerate it?

[Robert F. Smith]

6 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It looks like the terminology used (at least in the graphs) is "oppose" or "support". I don't know what the actual words of the question were. Maybe there wasn't an option for those who simply tolerate it?

My ancestors practiced plural marriage and were heavily persecuted for it.  America wasn't very tolerant in those days.  I place SSM in the same context, and think that Mormons have no business telling others how to live their lives -- except when preaching the Gospel to those willing to hear it.  Not sure that Jana was interested in such distinctions.  The real question is whether we will support tolerance in a pluralistic society.  Can we all just get along?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

LDS teachings on homosexuality are pretty wholesale borrowed from conservative Christian thoughts on the subject, which are themselves based on passages from the Bible divorced from their historical context. Since unique LDS scripture is totally silent on homosexuality, the LDS Church is actually in a unique position to abandon the prohibition on gay marriage. Just blame previous teachings on the prevailing culture (conservative Christian culture, aka a legacy from the apostasy) and be done with it.

Except for the whole fundamental male-female exalted godhood thing....

[MormonVideoGame]

47 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think the correct tense would be: 'Why is the Church opposed to the legalisation of SSM?'

So it is a sin to support the legalization of SSM? If not why is the church opposed to it? Doesn't make any sense. Explain

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For example, tolerating same sex marriage is not the same as favoring it.  

Exactly! 

21 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It looks like the terminology used (at least in the graphs) is "oppose" or "support". I don't know what the actual words of the question were. Maybe there wasn't an option for those who simply tolerate it?

I think we should simply live and let live. It's called religious freedom. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As already noted by Cinepro, LDS teachings on homosexuality are firmly grounded in unique Latter-day Saint doctrines on the pre-existence, the nature and origin of the human spirit, the nature and role of God, the role of the family in mortality and beyond, the purpose of life, temple covenants, etc. ... plus what, to me as a historian, is clearly a robust understanding of the historical context of socially and culturally constructed sexual identities.

Really all of that adds up to an argument from silence. There is no mention of gay marriage in LDS doctrines about deification or the preexistence, therefore what? That's pretty thin.

I don't see much support for "sexual orientation is a construct" from LDS doctrine either.