Gray Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 19 minutes ago, Calm said: Except for the whole fundamental male-female exalted godhood thing.... A condemnation of gay marriage based entirely on silence? As I said to Hamba, that's very thin.
Gray Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: As far as why the rapid change - almost half of Republicans now favor gay marriage, and most US Mormons are Republicans. I should say, I don't think Mormon views are changing because they're mostly GOP voters. I think it's just a sociological thing, views are changing fast on this everywhere.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 8 hours ago, mnn727 said: Like the WoW, its only against OUR Covenants, not against people not under the Covenant, Its not a sin for a non-Mormon to drink or smoke, only if we do it. Likewise SSM. I wonder what the survey would have came up with if it asked a realistic question something like 'should gays be allowed to be married/sealed in the Temple?' - that would be comparing apples to apples.Anything else is apples to oranges. Not a sin except for Mormons? Would you say the same thing about adultery?
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not a sin except for Mormons? Is supporting the legalization of SSM a sin? If not, why was the church opposed to the legalization of SSM? Please explain Edited June 28, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Is supporting the legalization of SSM a sin? If not, why was the church opposed to the legalization of SSM? Please explain I'm not a Church spokesman, so I can only give you my opinion. The Church sees its duty as being a righteous influence in society, so from time to time, it will take institutional positions on current affairs and public issues that pertain to morality and decency. It will do this regardless of what positions others may take, including individuals who profess membership in the Church. Resisting the public redefinition of marriage is one such public issue. I see it as perfectly reasonable for the Church to do so. At the same time, the Church professes a doctrinal belief in moral agency. Allowing its individual members to take their own positions on public issues, misguided though they might be, is consistent with that doctrine. And it is not a sin to have an opinion -- though behavior stemming from some opinions might be. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Gray said: I should say, I don't think Mormon views are changing because they're mostly GOP voters. I think it's just a sociological thing, views are changing fast on this everywhere. Fidelity to the faith typically runs at about 66 percent in the Church, so this survey doesn't surprise me very much. At any given time, about a third of us are particularly susceptible to worldly influence. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: So it is a sin to support the legalization of SSM? If not why is the church opposed to it? Doesn't make any sense. Explain The Church continues to actively oppose the legalisation of SSM in nations and jurisdictions that have not already capitulated. I live in one of those, so I get to see it firsthand. My question: do you actually understand why the Church is opposed? 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gray said: Really all of that adds up to an argument from silence. Sure ... if you have your fingers deeply thrust into both ears. And utterly reject the foundational claim that the Restoration brought back living prophets... Quote There is no mention of gay marriage in LDS doctrines about deification or the preexistence, therefore what? That's pretty thin. Just as there is no mention of robot marriage either. Therefore what? Quote I don't see much support for "sexual orientation is a construct" from LDS doctrine either. Edited June 28, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan 2
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At the same time, the Church professes a doctrinal belief in moral agency. Allowing its individual members to take their own positions on public issues, misguided though they might be, is consistent with that doctrine. Moral agency? Is it immoral for LDS members to support the legalization of SSM? Are they still temple worthy? 29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church sees its duty as being a righteous influence in society, so from time to time, it will take institutional positions on current affairs and public issues that pertain to morality and decency. So it is a sin to support the legalization of SSM? Why doesn't the church have a position on the legalization of Abortion? "The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion" Please explain the difference, I am confused. 16 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: The Church continues to actively oppose the legalisation of SSM in nations and jurisdictions that have not already capitulated. I live in one of those, so I get to see it firsthand. My question: do you actually understand why the Church is opposed? So why doesn't the church have a position on the legalization of Abortion? Why is the politics neccesary for SSM issue? 29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church sees its duty as being a righteous influence in society, so from time to time, Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place. So what did Jesus mean? 1 hour ago, Calm said: .... Do you know? Edited June 28, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: So why doesn't the church have a position on the legalization of Abortion? From lds.org: Quote In today's society, abortion has become a common practice, defended by deceptive arguments. Latter-day prophets have denounced abortion, referring to the Lord's declaration, "Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it" (D&C 59:6). Their counsel on the matter is clear: Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. Church members who encourage an abortion in any way may be subject to Church discipline. Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion... Are you aware of any 'exceptional circumstances' regarding marrying a person of one's own sex? 2
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Are you aware of any 'exceptional circumstances' regarding marrying a person of one's own sex? Do you understand the difference between religion and politics? "The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion" So why is/was the church opposed to "legislative proposals" concerning SSM? I think it is very wise that the church is keeping out of the politics of abortion. Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world" and Joseph Smith taught "We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government" - D&C 134:9 If only the church could do the same about the politics of SSM Edited June 28, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Do you understand the difference between religion and politics? No, I don't. I'm a professionally trained historian. I know full well that virtually every 'political' issue, as you would call it, has its origin in religion. Have you ever wondered why it's illegal to kill people, including children outside the womb, for instance? There's a historical reason for that. It's certainly not been universal across times or cultures. In my part of the world, it was a European colonial imposition. White people forcing their religious beliefs on everyone else... 5
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: No, I don't. I'm a professionally trained historian. I know full well that virtually every 'political' issue, as you would call it, has its origin in religion. CFR are you an antrophologist? History ends around 3200 BC. Let's not talk about origins, it is kind of irrelevant, please answer my question instead 28 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: "The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion" So why is/was the church opposed to "legislative proposals" concerning SSM? I think it is very wise that the church is keeping out of the politics of abortion. Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world" and Joseph Smith taught "We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government" - D&C 134:9 If only the church could do the same about the politics of SSM
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: Do you understand the difference between religion and politics? "The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion" So why is/was the church opposed to "legislative proposals" concerning SSM? I think it is very wise that the church is keeping out of the politics of abortion. Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world" and Joseph Smith taught "We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government" - D&C 134:9 If only the church could do the same about the politics of SSM The Church has always reserved the right to get involved in public issues when they concern matters of morality and decency. You and I have gone the rounds on this before, but I reject your anti-First Amendment attitude that would forbid people of faith from getting involved in the political sphere. Wars have been fought over such despotism. I would stand against you if you tried to push it. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church has always reserved the right to get involved in public issues when they concern matters of morality and decency. So the legality of"sex-selective abortion" doesn't concern matters of morality and decency? The church has made it very clear that it "has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". Why is the politics of SSM marriage different? Is SSM worst than Sex-selective abortion? Edited June 28, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: So "sex-selective abortion" doesn't concern matters of morality and decency? The church has made it very clear that it "has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". The Church has always taught that abortion-on-demand is wrong. Quote Why is the politics of SSM marriage difference? Is SSM worst than Sex-selective abortion? The Church has been silent on politically marriage redefinition in the United States since it became the law of the land. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
MormonVideoGame Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church has always taught that abortion-on-demand is wrong. We know that, but the church has "not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". In other words it is politically silent on abortion. 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church has been silent on it politically in the United States since it became the law of the land. Did the church "oppose legislative proposals ... concerning abortion" before 1973? FYI there are still legislative proposals concerning abortion, why is the church silent? The church is still not politically silent on SSM http://kutv.com/news/local/defeated-in-the-us-lds-church-takes-fight-against-same-sex-marriage-to-mexico Edited June 28, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: The church is still not politically silent on SSM http://kutv.com/news/local/defeated-in-the-us-lds-church-takes-fight-against-same-sex-marriage-to-mexico Did you miss that I said "in the United States"? Please respond to what I write, not what I didn't write. Otherwise I'm apt to think you are just being querulous. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: We know that, but the church has "not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion". In other words it is politically silent on abortion. Did the church "oppose legislative proposals ... concerning abortion" before 1973? FYI there are still legislative proposals concerning abortion, why is the church silent? The church is still not politically silent on SSM http://kutv.com/news/local/defeated-in-the-us-lds-church-takes-fight-against-same-sex-marriage-to-mexico In some cases, it's a matter of teaching correct principles and letting people govern themselves. Many people became enraged that the Church said anything at all on marriage redefinition, even though as pertaining to public policy it merely encouraged its members to get involved instead of becoming involved itself as an institutional entity. But I gather that it's not OK with you that Mormons, guided by their religious beliefs, choose to become involved in the political process. That attitude strikes me as un-American. Edited to add: The Church's legal counsel, Lance Wickman, has spoken out against measures that would require health care providers to perform abortion or dispense abortion advice against their moral or religious values. I started a thread that is still active on threats to religious freedom in the mental health profession, but it also discusses secondarily threats to religious freedom in the health care profession in general. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Robert F. Smith Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Gray said: LDS teachings on homosexuality are pretty wholesale borrowed from conservative Christian thoughts on the subject, which are themselves based on passages from the Bible divorced from their historical context. Since unique LDS scripture is totally silent on homosexuality, the LDS Church is actually in a unique position to abandon the prohibition on gay marriage. Just blame previous teachings on the prevailing culture (conservative Christian culture, aka a legacy from the apostasy) and be done with it. As far as why the rapid change - almost half of Republicans now favor gay marriage, and most US Mormons are Republicans. The biblical teaching on homosexuality is pretty clear and unambiguous. One doesn't need to go any further than orthodox Judaism to understand that. LDS Scripture includes the OT and it seems unlikely that the prohibition on homosexuality will be abandoned soon. Those whom you declare in favor of SSM are probably merely tolerant of it. It is not likely that they will begin practicing it themselves. Your terminology is confused and incoherent.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I'm a professionally trained historian. 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: CFR are you an antrophologist [sic]? I don't know how to progress this 'discussion'... Edited June 28, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan 3
carbon dioxide Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 1. WHY are members views changing so rapidly? 2. HOW do members reconcile the doctrinal disparity with Church teachings? In what way are their views changing? Are they believing that it is morally right or do they simply think it should be legal? Are they going against what the Church teaches? I don't think so. I think they are simply saying gays should have a legal right to marry even if they do not agree with it. For me, I want very little government in our lives. I also believe in the concept of agency. People should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as their agency does not negatively infringe on another. So though I do not accept gay marriage as a valid form of marriage, a wicked practice and would oppose the Church from ever accepting or endorsing it, I do believe that it should be legal. Just as I believe prostitution should be legal and ALL drugs from pot to cocaine should be legal. The whole concept of agency is to allow people to make choices. That includes very bad choices that would lead to their damnation. It seems that us LDS believe and teach that we fought a "war" in heaven over the idea of agency. We won that battle but then we come to this world and try to take agency away from others. The Church and its members MUST stand for what is right be we also should allow people to make choices that are not right. Edited June 28, 2017 by carbon dioxide
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't know how to progress this 'discussion'... I checked around. Can't find a single university that offers a degree in antrophology. Edited June 28, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I checked around. Can't find a single university that offers a degree in antrophology. You just didn't look very hard... 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You just didn't look very hard... I stand corrected. Funny. Swedish is my second language, and I've never run across the term antrophology until now. Is it a sub-genre of anthropology?
Recommended Posts