Jeanne Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: I don't know when I was dead I could see my body strapped to a gurney down below and I could read what was on the side of the Vans out of the window down in the parking lot. There is no way I could see these vans strapped to that bed. I lifted up and out of my body..saw it..walked to wall of the basement..then returned..I did not get far or see much of anything..but returning to the body was a little painful.. 1
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 I don't know what lies beyond but I suspect I will know in the next 40 years, if not sooner. Until then, I plan on living the best life I can. 1
Duncan Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 From the late Elder Maxwell, “Sometimes in the Church we speak imprecisely … as if individuals who die go immediately to the celestial kingdom and are at once in the full presence of God. We tend to overlook the reality that the spirit world and paradise are part, really, of the second estate. The work of the Lord, so far as the second estate is concerned, is completed before the Judgment and the Resurrection. … “The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith—and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world. … “Thus, if not on this side of the veil, then in the spirit world to come, the gospel will be preached to all, including all transgressors, rebels, and rejectors of prophets, along with all those billions who died without a knowledge of the gospel (D&C 138)” (The Promise of Discipleship [2001], 119, 122). 1
Jeanne Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 10 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: I don't know what lies beyond but I suspect I will know in the next 40 years, if not sooner. Until then, I plan on living the best life I can. You young pup.. I should know perhaps in about 25 years....I will come back and give you a heads up! Living your best life; nothing wrong with that.
clarkgoble Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 53 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I haven't read the study, could you link or did I overlook it, read through some links pretty quickly. Also, the hidden cards how is someone supposed to see those if they are hidden? Maybe if I read the study, I wouldn't have asked a possibly really dumb question. I've read the study before but was going on the link that referenced in pass the continuation of the study. At least it sounds like it's tied together since the methodology (card on high shelves) sounds similar.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 38 minutes ago, Jeanne said: You young pup.. I should know perhaps in about 25 years....I will come back and give you a heads up! Living your best life; nothing wrong with that. Just barely weaned 1
Calm Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Also, the hidden cards how is someone supposed to see those if they are hidden? The idea is you chose a card that is placed facing upward that no one else can see. Often out of body experiences are described as floating upward and looking down. If they actually do this, they will be able to see the card on the top of a shelf or cabinet while those with their feet on the ground cannot. Once seen, they can report it once they wake up. They may even be told before they go into surgery that if they think they have left their bodies where to find the card, iirc. So far this has not yielded any positive results. Edited June 6, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 "People may feel like they are outside of their own bodies, but they are merely remembering memories of the room, and not experiencing it in real-time as a “floating spirit.” For example, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she’s a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there. We would expect differently if patients were actually floating around up there." https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/
Jeanne Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 I don't aim to see the Savior right away..but would love to feel His presence. How would he go about this anyway...thousands of people die each day.would we meet as a group or would a grand illusion give us a seemingly personal visit with the Lord. BTW: My experience wasn't a NDE..it was OBE. But I kid you not..it was real for whatever reason. I was almost 20 at the time and will never forget that feeling.
mrmarklin Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 10 hours ago, amo said: In Alma 40, we read that: 11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God: 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are… https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10 From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ? No.
Tacenda Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: The idea is you chose a card that is placed facing upward that no one else can see. Often out of body experiences are described as floating upward and looking down. If they actually do this, they will be able to see the card on the top of a shelf or cabinet while those with their feet on the ground cannot. Once seen, they can report it once they wake up. They may even be told before they go into surgery that if they think they have left their bodies where to find the card, iirc. So far this has not yielded any positive results. Maybe the spirit or God tells those that are near death, not to play their silly games/test, and make them learn how to have faith. Edited June 6, 2017 by Tacenda
Glenn101 Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, amo said: & why not ...? If a person that has not accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ were die and immediately find himself or herself in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, there would no longer be any doubt about who is who and what is what. There would be no need of any preaching the gospel to the dead. Scripturally we can look at Christ's words to Mary Magdalene when she recognized him at the tomb after his resurrection. He told her not to touch him because "I am not yet ascended to my Father." According to Peter (1 Peter 3:18-20) Christ was in the Spirit World organizing the missionary effort to those spirits who had died without receiving the gospel. That leaves Alma's statement and a similar one in Ecclesiastes 12:7 an uncertain interpretation. Glenn
Robert F. Smith Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, amo said: & why not ...? Probably because D&C 76 and 138 indicate otherwise. 1
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 12 hours ago, amo said: In Alma 40, we read that: 11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God: 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are… https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10 From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ? There has to be some kind of judgment to determine which spiritual place the spirit will go. If they died in Christ they go to Paradise to await resurrection with a few exceptions of those translated. So perhaps it is Christ who we meet with. He has been appointed as our judge after all.
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 48 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Probably because D&C 76 and 138 indicate otherwise. Not that I see.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Not that I see. So you think that D&C 138 and 76 are in concert with Alma 40:11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” All go directly back to God? How does that match the version of events in The Westminster Confession 32:1, Quote The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Edited June 6, 2017 by Robert F. Smith
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: So you think that D&C 138 and 76 are in concert with Alma 40:11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” All go directly back to God? How does that match the version of events in The Westminster Confession 32:1, It doesn't. The Westminster Confession is wrong. I'm not sure why you brought it up - are you feeling your usual self today? The BoM doesn't say they go to abide in heaven. It says the go to see "God" and then go to paradise or "outer darkness"/hell/spirit prison to pay the price for their sin. Paradise is not heaven.
amo Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Probably because D&C 76 and 138 indicate otherwise. & which verse(s) would that be...?
amo Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 10 hours ago, Glenn101 said: If a person that has not accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ were die and immediately find himself or herself in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, there would no longer be any doubt about who is who and what is what. There would be no need of any preaching the gospel to the dead. Well, but don't forget that Laman & Lemuel both had very powerful spiritual experiences but nonetheless, they continued in their sins. There's also Lucifer & his followers.
CV75 Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, amo said: & which verse(s) would that be...? I think Alma 40:12-13, "it shall come to pass" indicates that some time is passing between steps, stages or events (for example, in verse 14, they are "looking for" the next state). D&C 88:26-32 indicates that after this waiting period, we are then quickened by a portion of glory that reflects our spiritual preparedness for the corresponding levels of law that we have kept in mortality (and there is an order of resurrection, also indicating a waiting period); then we stand before God (can't do that without a body); and then we receive the fulness of immortal glory that we are willing tor receive, with those not remaining in God's presence "to return again to "their own place." D&C 138:51 indicates that the righteous spirits are given power to come forth to enter into the Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, and that all they teach have the opportunity to do the same after living according to God in the spirit (verse 34). The spirits had not entered the Father’s kingdom before that, and like the Son, the Father would He go amongst the wicked (verse 20). D&C 76 of course refers to the orders of resurrection, some coming forth in the first and some in the last, meaning there is a waiting period before standing before the judgement bar (2 Nephi 9:22, “And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day [and not before].”). 1
amo Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think Alma 40:12-13, "it shall come to pass" indicates that some time is passing between steps, stages or events (for example, in verse 14, they are "looking for" the next state). And I see the same "time...passing", or "steps, stages", right after Alma says, in verse 11, that “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body ... are taken home to that God who gave them life” : 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are… Adv.1. and then : - subsequently or soon afterward (often used as sentence connectors); "then he left"; "go left first, thenright"; "first came lightning, then thunder"; "we watched the late movie and then went to bed"; "and so home and tobed" Edited June 6, 2017 by amo
CV75 Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, amo said: And I see the same "time...passing", or "steps, stages", right after Alma says, in verse 11, that “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body ... are taken home to that God who gave them life” : 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are… Adv.1. and then : - subsequently or soon afterward (often used as sentence connectors); "then he left"; "go left first, thenright"; "first came lightning, then thunder"; "we watched the late movie and then went to bed"; "and so home and tobed" In consideration of verses 12-15, being taken home to God does not mean they meet Him face to face at that time. Verse 15 clarifies that their assignment to paradise (12) or darkness (14) is not a resurrection, but that it is where the spirits await the resurrection (14), which is a prerequisite to standing before God. The other sections (D&C 76, 88, 138) flesh this out further as described above. An example: The temple is the House of God. We go there but we do not see Him face to face. We only live according to God in the spirit. 2 Nephi 9:2 speaks of home as the lands of inheritance. This also applies to the spirit world, where the spirits are gathered home and then established in their specific kingdom. The land of inheritance (spirit world) is the staging for establishing a spirit through resurrection and judgment in its corresponding land of promise. Plus, Alma 42: 5, “For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.” Returning to the presence of God as a spirit, which even Jesus did not do (He waited until He arranged things in the spirit world and was resurrected), would betray all righteousness, void the word of God and frustrate the plan of salvation. Edited June 6, 2017 by CV75
strappinglad Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 Since the majority of people who have ever lived have had little or no knowledge of Christ or the gospel while in mortality, it would seem to be mighty unfair to send them immediately to spirit prison to suffer for their sins upon death. I believe most will go ' home ' to a heavenly realm to enjoy some peace from what , in mortality , was a brutal existence. Some , of course, because of evil deeds , will experience the pangs of hell for a time at least. It is conceivable that the spirit world is much like here with all levels of life from supreme comfort to great misery all within the same realm but this time based on merit and not circumstance. 2,4,6,8, come on folks let's speculate !
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