Will we personally meet with God IMMEDIATELY after death?

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

The idea is you chose a card that is placed facing upward that no one else can see.  Often out of body experiences are described as floating upward and looking down.  If they actually do this, they will be able to see the card on the top of a shelf or cabinet while those with their feet on the ground cannot.  Once seen, they can report it once they wake up.  They may even be told before they go into surgery that if they think they have left their bodies where to find the card, iirc.

So far this has not yielded any positive results.

I think the problem is that we have the illusion that everything we experience is direct passing on of our senses. But most of it is highly processed by the brain with a lot of gaps filled in by the brain. Think of lucid dreams you may have had and how real they seem yet we know those are purely constructed. Not only that but part of consciousness is the brain convincing you that what you are experiencing has no gaps. Which is why dreams seem so real even though they are quite gappy when you start trying to make out parts. Our initial guess at what is going on tends to be wrong as I think numerous neurological tests can attest. (The most interesting ones are ones where the hemispheres of the brain aren't fully connected due to injury -- you get some really weird phenomena going on)

Now I know skeptics will use this to dismiss all spiritual experiences. I don't think that apt. For one I think there's a fundamental difference when one is in good health and can test experiences versus being extremely ill -- usually near death by definition -- and typically highly drugged up on drugs with known hallucinatory side effects. The initial analogy I gave of trusting someone's report on ketamine or lsd holds I think. There's a certain presumption I think that having a poorly functioning brain and heavy drugs that means we ought view experiences in that state skeptically.

Edited June 6, 2017 by clarkgoble

[mfbukowski]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:43 AM, amo said:

In Alma 40, we read that:

11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.”

 

Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are…

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10

 

From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ?

Nobody really knows this stuff.  Mormons do not believe in inerrant scripture.

And don't worry about translations- remember the most original alleged "translation" we have was in English- so why would you take some scholar's translation as better than Joseph's?  All they are doing is translating the English into Spanish or French or whatever.

You can read it in English, I think.

Do you compare the Spanish or French translation to know the New Testament better?

If you want to know the New Testament wouldn't it make more sense to look at the GREEK?  The language it was written in??

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think the problem is that we have the illusion that everything we experience is direct passing on of our senses. But most of it is highly processed by the brain with a lot of gaps filled in by the brain. Think of lucid dreams you have and how real they seem yet we know those are purely constructed. Not only that but part of consciousness is the brain convincing you that what you are experiencing has no gaps. Which is why dreams seem so real even though they are quite gappy when you start trying to make out parts. Our initial guess at what is going on tends to be wrong as I think numerous neurological tests can attest. (The most interesting ones are ones where the hemispheres of the brain aren't fully connected due to injury -- you get some really weird phenomena going on)

Now I know skeptics will use this to dismiss all spiritual experiences. I don't think that apt. For one I think there's a fundamental difference when one is in good health and can test experiences versus being extremely ill -- usually near death by definition -- and typically highly drugged up on drugs with known hallucinatory side effects. The initial analogy I gave of trusting someone's report on ketamine or lsd holds I think.

Just sitting in a chair and looking around the room and interpreting what is in it is, of course, neurological activity

Your interpretation of a chair is made by neurological activity as well as stubbing your toe against it in the dark is neurological activity.  Everything "in your brain" including ideas like freedom and love and even your understanding of philosophy is neurological activity. (Even sign theory  )

The notion that neurological activity makes what is perceived "not real" simply does not fly.

Obviously there are cases of pathological neurological activity- I am certainly not questioning that.  Certainly drug experiences do not give one access to "reality"- I see those as voluntary pathological states, as mental illness is a involuntary pathological neurological state

But to say that one experience predicts another is simply to say that one complex set of neurological activity predicts another set of complex neurological activities 

One could say that science IS human neurological activity communicated to others in a systematic way using "language" including math etc.

But the argument that religious experiences are not "real" because they are "just neurological activity" is ridiculous! 

What that we know is NOT a "neurological activity"?

[clarkgoble]

Well I prefer to not conflate the lens with the object seen, but clearly our brain affects our perceptions. Whether we can by reason extrapolate beyond that is the typical issue. Even people with damaged tools can come up with clever ways to work around the limitations. But it definitely requires being aware of the flaws.

[amo]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In consideration of verses 12-15, being taken home to God does not mean they meet Him face to face at that time. Verse 15 clarifies that their assignment to paradise (12) or darkness (14) is not a resurrection, but that it is where the spirits await the resurrection (14), which is a prerequisite to standing before God. The other sections (D&C 76, 88, 138) flesh this out further as described above.

An example: The temple is the House of God. We go there but we do not see Him face to face. We only live according to God in the spirit.

2 Nephi 9:2 speaks of home as the lands of inheritance. This also applies to the spirit world, where the spirits are gathered home and then established in their specific kingdom. The land of inheritance (spirit world) is the staging for establishing a spirit through resurrection and judgment in its corresponding land of promise.

Plus, Alma 42: 5, “For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.” Returning to the presence of God as a spirit, which even Jesus did not do (He waited until He arranged things in the spirit world and was resurrected), would betray all righteousness, void the word of God and frustrate the plan of salvation.

So, in other words, you don't see the  "time...passing", or "steps, stages", from verse 11 to 12, in Alma 40, as indicated by the use of the adverbial phrase  "And then"   ?

[amo]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nobody really knows this stuff.  

Ok, thx.

[amo]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And don't worry about translations- remember the most original alleged "translation" we have was in English- so why would you take some scholar's translation as better than Joseph's?  All they are doing is translating the English into Spanish or French or whatever.

 

I never said I considered "some scholar's translation as better than Joseph's ". I just pointed out a fact, the fact the adverbial phrase "and then", in verse 12, extant in the original, was omitted in the Spanish translation but well translated in the French one, hence I think that by this omission, the Spanish translation of this verse is not as good / reliable.

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nobody really knows this stuff.  Mormons do not believe in inerrant scripture.

Um - I pretty much do. Except for a few scribal errors and a handful of intentional changes and/or omissions, I think we pretty much have inerrant scripture. It is missing some books and the translations aren't perfect...but I imagine will be replaced if it is needed. And no, those aren't the books the Catholics added.

Quote

If you want to know the New Testament wouldn't it make more sense to look at the GREEK?  The language it was written in??

While I don't dispute we have Greek manuscripts for all our NT books, I believe some of these are translations are from earlier versions. As the Church grew, the need for Greek versions quickly developed since that was the lingua franca of Egypt and Asia Minor. I have no doubt that Luke and The Acts were written in Greek - probably by Luke. I have big doubts that Matthew was originally in Greek. I know I am making a basically worthless point, but I think we shouldn't dish the scriptures, esp the Book of Mormon which is supposed to be accurate. Have some faith and pray about it. This was supposed to come from an angel. It's not like it was guesswork.

[CV75]

42 minutes ago, amo said:

So, in other words, you don't see the  "time...passing", or "steps, stages", from verse 11 to 12, in Alma 40, as indicated by the use of the adverbial phrase  "And then"   ?

Not in context of the other scriptures, and especially when the same guy speaking in Alma 40 said the following in Alma 36:15: “Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds,” and not “Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, and not immediately be brought home to my God for my spirit and body to be reunited and brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.”

[Jeanne]

My son came and got out of work..my stepmother passed away at 7 this morning.  I am hoping she was greeted by all her loved ones and that her heaven is a little German Village and she is wearing long braids and finally at peace.  Hope heaven is whatever we can perceive to be.  Love you Imi!!Whatever awaits us, I am grateful for my continued belief of life after death.  Hoping she and Mom are meeting at some time in their future. Love them both so very much!!  Lucky to have two moms here on earth..and one in  the heavens to meet me!!

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jeanne

[RevTestament]

18 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

My son came and got out of work..my stepmother passed away at 7 this morning.  I am hoping she was greeted by all her loved ones and that her heaven is a little German Village and she is wearing long braids and finally at peace.  Hope heaven is whatever we can perceive to be.  Love you Imi!!Whatever awaits us, I am grateful for my continued belief of life after death.  Hoping she and Mom are meeting at some time in their future. Love them both so very much!!  Lucky to have two moms here on earth..and one in  the heavens to meet me!!

 

My condolences Jeanne. I am glad you had a good stepmother. I too have a good stepmother. She has been having lots of difficulties this spring with her asthma and breathing, and is still recovering from double pneumonia and a hospitalization. I have so many wonderful memories of her raising me since I was about 8. She took on a big challenge to marry into 3 step sons who were a bit of a handful, and be a stepmom rather than our natural mother. But I loved and appreciated her from the beginning, and always called her mom. I am glad to hear that you are honoring your stepmother. Mine too is definitely worthy of love, and I try to let her know that, but have lived across country from her for many years now.

While we are honoring stepmothers, my wife's stepmother has also been a wonderful asset to her family and took on a huge challenge to help a hurting family after the loss of their mother. I love her as well, so I have 3 mothers, although I am not sure they will all get along in the hereafter...

Edited June 6, 2017 by RevTestament

[RevTestament]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:57 AM, amo said:

A “yes” answer seems to be supported also by Jacob. He said :

2 Ne. 9:38
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

 

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Not in context of the other scriptures, and especially when the same guy speaking in Alma 40 said the following in Alma 36:15: “Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds,” and not “Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, and not immediately be brought home to my God for my spirit and body to be reunited and brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.”

Sure it's in the context of other scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the ^adust return to the earth as it was: and the ^bspirit shall return unto God who ^cgave it.

Why do LDS seem to have this hang up with the last judgment?

How do some people get resurrected before the last judgment? 

Are they not judged worthy of resurrection?

[Jeanne]

22 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

My condolences Jeanne. I am glad you had a good stepmother. I too have a good stepmother. She has been having lots of difficulties this spring with her asthma and breathing, and is still recovering from double pneumonia and a hospitalization. I have so many wonderful memories of her raising me since I was about 8. She took on a big challenge to marry into 3 step sons who were a bit of a handful, and be a stepmom rather than our natural mother. But I loved and appreciated her from the beginning, and always called her mom. I am glad to hear that you are honoring your stepmother. Mine too is definitely worthy of love, and I try to let her know that, but have lived across country from her for many years now.

While we are honoring stepmothers, my wife's stepmother has also been a wonderful asset to her family and took on a huge challenge to help a hurting family after the loss of their mother. I love her as well, so I have 3 mothers, although I am not sure they will all get along in the hereafter...

Love this.  Moms are Moms...just because of who they are.  I have only known mine for 10 years..but she has been there in those times when friends and family were not.  A special communication because..she is also a friend.  So glad that you life experiences have been good.  Hugs..

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

Sure it's in the context of other scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the ^adust return to the earth as it was: and the ^bspirit shall return unto God who ^cgave it.

Why do LDS seem to have this hang up with the last judgment?

How do some people get resurrected before the last judgment? 

Are they not judged worthy of resurrection?

What is the hang up? What do mean by "last judgment" (I'm not familiar with the term)?  Where have I used it?

The closest I can come to references to this term are these:

Alma 33:22, “If so, wo shall come upon you; but if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people, and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; and that he shall rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand before him, to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works.”

D&C 19:2-3, “I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.”

To me, these seem to convey that each person has his own very special, individualized last day, judgement, last great day of judgement... and not everyone at once. The first reference is clear that this occurs after the resurrection; the second I believe alludes to the concept in the Lord's accomplishing and finishing the Father's will that all His children inhabiting the world be resurrected.

Edited June 6, 2017 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, amo said:

& which verse(s) would that be...?

I suggest a thorough reading of both revelations, in order to get a comprehensive picture.

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What is the hang up? What do mean by "last judgment" (I'm not familiar with the term)?  Where have I used it?

The closest I can come to references to this term are these:

Alma 33:22, “If so, wo shall come upon you; but if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people, and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; and that he shall rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand before him, to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works.”

D&C 19:2-3, “I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.”

To me, these seem to convey that each person has his own very special, individualized last day, judgement, last great day of judgement... and not everyone at once.

Exactly. Many LDS seem to assume that there is only one judgment day. I don't think any scripture says that. Apparently, Jesus must judge who has sufficiently repented and followed Him to be worthy of paradise rather than hell. How does He do this? Is He our creator? The answer to these questions I feel is at the core of the OP. The scriptures involved indicate to me that we see Him face to face before being sent to Paradise or Hell/outer darkness. My guess is those in Paradise are in line for the next resurrection. The question as to whether there is another judgment after this resurrection or only one after the last resurrection I'm not sure has been settled by scripture. However, those resurrected seem to already be receiving according to their works.... I personally feel not all judgments are postponed to the end, which I feel helps answer the OP.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It doesn't. The Westminster Confession is wrong. I'm not sure why you brought it up - are you feeling your usual self today? The BoM doesn't say they go to abide in heaven. It says the go to see "God" and then go to paradise or "outer darkness"/hell/spirit prison to pay the price for their sin. Paradise is not heaven.

Wrong.  Alma 40:11 does not say that they "go to see 'God'," and the Westminster Confession is very relevant: The key phrases are Alma 40:11 “are taken home to that God who gave them life” and Westminster Confession of Faith 32:1 “immediately return to God who gave them.”  What are you claiming that the shared concept might be here, or don't you see it?

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Exactly. Many LDS seem to assume that there is only one judgment day. I don't think any scripture says that. Apparently, Jesus must judge who has sufficiently repented and followed Him to be worthy of paradise rather than hell. How does He do this? Is He our creator? The answer to these questions I feel is at the core of the OP. The scriptures involved indicate to me that we see Him face to face before being sent to Paradise or Hell/outer darkness. My guess is those in Paradise are in line for the next resurrection. The question as to whether there is another judgment after this resurrection or only one after the last resurrection I'm not sure has been settled by scripture. However, those resurrected seem to already be receiving according to their works.... I personally feel not all judgments are postponed to the end, which I feel helps answer the OP.

I see. Most of these questions are most comprehensively answered with “yes and no, depending…”

Now I’m thinking that Jesus does not judge who goes to spirit paradise or prison, but that we self-select (“unto the wicked He did not go”—especially while He was mortal! --such as those of Noah’s day spoken of by Peter) and even if He did, we wouldn’t have to see Him face to face for Him to decide.

Much of this discussion has appealed to the words of Alma, who also spoke of not everyone being resurrected at once, and by extrapolation judged at once, etc. any more than we are all born or die at once (Alma 40:8,19), and so it goes for “all the times which are appointed unto man” (verse 10), which with God it is probably as one day since “time only is measured unto men” (verse 8).

[RevTestament]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wrong.  Alma 40:11 does not say that they "go to see 'God'," and the Westminster Confession is very relevant: The key phrases are Alma 40:11 “are taken home to that God who gave them life” and Westminster Confession of Faith 32:1 “immediately return to God who gave them.”  What are you claiming that the shared concept might be here, or don't you see it?

Not wrong.  The Westminster Confession is wrong:

"The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. "

The "souls of the righteous" are destroyed without the body. Their spirits do return to God who gave them according to Ecclesiastes, but the Westminster confession parrots Ecclesiastes inaccurately since their souls cannot make this journey without the body. Neither their souls nor the spirits "are received into the highest heavens..." "waiting the full redemption of their bodies." Again Paradise is not Heaven - at least not where Heavenly Father dwells or Jesus would not have said He had not yet ascended to His Father after going to Paradise. It is not the celestial kingdom which is the highest heaven reserved for resurrected beings according to our scriptures. 

2 Nephi 9:38 indicates the wicked will "see God" before receiving their punishment ie remaining in their sins. I believe this to be Yeshua. Obviously they will experience this as spirits, so although Alma does not say it, 2 Nephi does.

[RevTestament]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I see. Most of these questions are most comprehensively answered with “yes and no, depending…”

 

Now I’m thinking that Jesus does not judge who goes to spirit paradise or prison, but that we self-select (“unto the wicked He did not go”—especially while He was mortal! --such as those of Noah’s day spoken of by Peter) and even if He did, we wouldn’t have to see Him face to face for Him to decide.

Jesus did go to preach the gospel to the wicked in spirit prison to convince those who could live godly to repent according to Peter. Do you think the wicked will not see Him at judgment? Do you think they will see Heavenly Father?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 

Quote

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wrong.  Alma 40:11 does not say that they "go to see 'God'," and the Westminster Confession is very relevant: The key phrases are Alma 40:11 “are taken home to that God who gave them life” and Westminster Confession of Faith 32:1 “immediately return to God who gave them.”  What are you claiming that the shared concept might be here, or don't you see it?

Not wrong.  The Westminster Confession is wrong:

You haven't responded to my point on the similarity of the phrases "taken home to that God who gave them life” and "immediately return to God who gave them.”

Quote

............................................

The "souls of the righteous" are destroyed without the body. Their spirits do return to God who gave them according to Ecclesiastes, but the Westminster confession parrots Ecclesiastes inaccurately since their souls cannot make this journey without the body. Neither their souls nor the spirits "are received into the highest heavens..." "waiting the full redemption of their bodies." Again Paradise is not Heaven - at least not where Heavenly Father dwells or Jesus would not have said He had not yet ascended to His Father after going to Paradise. It is not the celestial kingdom which is the highest heaven reserved for resurrected beings according to our scriptures. 

2 Nephi 9:38 indicates the wicked will "see God" before receiving their punishment ie remaining in their sins. I believe this to be Yeshua. Obviously they will experience this as spirits, so although Alma does not say it, 2 Nephi does.

2 Ne 9:38 does not say that the wicked will "see God," but that "they shall return to God," as in the Westminster Confession and in Alma 40:11.  You are focused on what happens later in the sequence of events, and ignoring your own observation that "Jesus would not have said He had not yet ascended to His Father after going to Paradise."  Thus, you appear to agree that no one returns directly and immediately to God at the time of their death, except in a general sense.  Nowhere in Scripture do we obtain the view that one is instantly transported to the immediate presence of God at the second of his death.  Just the opposite.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Um - I pretty much do. Except for a few scribal errors and a handful of intentional changes and/or omissions, I think we pretty much have inerrant scripture. It is missing some books and the translations aren't perfect...but I imagine will be replaced if it is needed. And no, those aren't the books the Catholics added.

While I don't dispute we have Greek manuscripts for all our NT books, I believe some of these are translations are from earlier versions. As the Church grew, the need for Greek versions quickly developed since that was the lingua franca of Egypt and Asia Minor. I have no doubt that Luke and The Acts were written in Greek - probably by Luke. I have big doubts that Matthew was originally in Greek. I know I am making a basically worthless point, but I think we shouldn't dish the scriptures, esp the Book of Mormon which is supposed to be accurate. Have some faith and pray about it. This was supposed to come from an angel. It's not like it was guesswork.

OK

I do not think God can be captured in words, nor his ways.  Yes he has given us approximations that we worm-brains can understand.  "Pretty much inerrant"?  Not possible.  Rough approximations in a very general way?  Yep.  The lines between the three kingdoms and who is going where?  I think there are probably an infinite degree of gradations and we all get what we deserve.  Three general categories?  Sure why not?  The exact moment death plus x to when we meet God face to face?  No way anyone has that timed right- especially when time makes no sense.  The notion doesn't even make sense to me.  The meeting will happen when we are ready.

Never said anything about Catholics adding scriptures.

My only point was that if you want accuracy you go as close as you can to the original sources.

I never said it was guesswork.   It's the best God can do in telling humans about things they are incapable of understanding fully.  God is certainly smart enough to teach even us all we need to know, and that is what we have.  He teaches us basic kindergarten number skills compared to the calculus of infinite knowledge.  Yes the first has some correlation with the last, but not much due to its over simplification 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My son came and got out of work..my stepmother passed away at 7 this morning.  I am hoping she was greeted by all her loved ones and that her heaven is a little German Village and she is wearing long braids and finally at peace.  Hope heaven is whatever we can perceive to be.  Love you Imi!!Whatever awaits us, I am grateful for my continued belief of life after death.  Hoping she and Mom are meeting at some time in their future. Love them both so very much!!  Lucky to have two moms here on earth..and one in  the heavens to meet me!!

 

I'm so sorry for your loss Jeanne.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by Tacenda

[CV75]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Jesus did go to preach the gospel to the wicked in spirit prison to convince those who could live godly to repent according to Peter. Do you think the wicked will not see Him at judgment? Do you think they will see Heavenly Father?

I think the resurrected wicked will see Him at their judgement and then return to their own place, or to a place fitting a fulness of the portion of glory by which they were resurrected. I do not think the wicked who died and whose spirits transitioned from this mortal world to their prison in the spirit world saw Him or met with Him at any point during their transfer. His emissaries, yes.

As to whether the wicked will see the Father without seeing Jesus, I do not see how that is possible whether on their way to spirit prison or after their resurrection (and after their resurrection, they can only go to their own place, not the Father's).

Are you asking, Who is the God that gave us life? Heavenly Father gave us the pre-mortal life in His presence (we were co-eternal with Him before that), and He grants the fulness of life, or eternal life (per D&C 93) through the merits of the Only Begotten (meaning Jesus fulfilling the Father's will in the flesh). Jesus gave us mortal life through the creation, immortal life through the resurrection, and a reborn spiritual life through the atonement. In either case, when we die we go home to the God who gave us life in the manner and sense I've been describing.

Edited June 7, 2017 by CV75

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry for your loss Jeanne.  

Thank you Tacenda..it has been a long hard road for her.