RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You haven't responded to my point on the similarity of the phrases "taken home to that God who gave them life” and "immediately return to God who gave them.” .Yes, I did I said "Their spirits do return to God who gave them according to Ecclesiastes, but the Westminster confession parrots Ecclesiastes inaccurately since their souls cannot make this journey without the body." Not only does Ecclesiastes say this, but the Book of Mormon says this. That our spirits return to the God who gave it - not created it. Quote 2 Ne 9:38 does not say that the wicked will "see God," but that "they shall return to God," as in the Westminster Confession and in Alma 40:11. Well, being spirits, it is kind of hard to "see" with eyes, but 2 Nephi 9 does say: 38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. Quote You are focused on what happens later in the sequence of events, and ignoring your own observation that "Jesus would not have said He had not yet ascended to His Father after going to Paradise." Thus, you appear to agree that no one returns directly and immediately to God at the time of their death, except in a general sense. Nowhere in Scripture do we obtain the view that one is instantly transported to the immediate presence of God at the second of his death. Just the opposite. You are thinking of "God" strictly in the sense of Heavenly Father. Yeshua has been every bit YHWH Elohim with the Father from the beginning. I don't think the wicked go to see Heavenly Father in their unrepentant state even as spirits, so this God is Yeshua whom they must face. John 5:22-23,27 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath acommitted all bjudgment unto the Son:
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I do not think God can be captured in words, nor his ways. What makes God, God is His word. Think about that. Quote I never said it was guesswork. It's the best God can do in telling humans about things they are incapable of understanding fully. God is certainly smart enough to teach even us all we need to know, and that is what we have. He teaches us basic kindergarten number skills compared to the calculus of infinite knowledge. Yes the first has some correlation with the last, but not much due to its over simplification I'm not harping on you MFB - really. But we do not have to have "infinite knowledge" to become one with God. He has given us what we need to know. Yes, most just see the milk - the basic kindergarten number skills - but some will perceive the meat of His oracles. Start at Hebrews.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 5 hours ago, CV75 said: I think the resurrected wicked will see Him at their judgement and then return to their own place, or to a place fitting a fulness of the portion of glory by which they were resurrected. I do not think the wicked who died and whose spirits transitioned from this mortal world to their prison in the spirit world saw Him or met with Him at any point during their transfer. His emissaries, yes. Then i respectfully submit you do not believe 2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. This cannot be talking about he final judgment because they must ultimately repent to receive the telestial kingdom. Therefore, it is talking about remaining in the sins and being punished for them in spirit prison/hell. Quote As to whether the wicked will see the Father without seeing Jesus, I do not see how that is possible whether on their way to spirit prison or after their resurrection (and after their resurrection, they can only go to their own place, not the Father's). Are you asking, Who is the God that gave us life? Heavenly Father gave us the pre-mortal life in His presence (we were co-eternal with Him before that), and He grants the fulness of life, or eternal life (per D&C 93) through the merits of the Only Begotten (meaning Jesus fulfilling the Father's will in the flesh). Jesus gave us mortal life through the creation, immortal life through the resurrection, and a reborn spiritual life through the atonement. In either case, when we die we go home to the God who gave us life in the manner and sense I've been describing. I never said the wicked will see the Father. Yeshua is our judge. i am saying the God being referenced in these BoM passages is Yeshua our Savior and judge. As you indicate He created us, and I believe determined which body would receive which spirit. You keep speaking in very general terms, so let me ask you a question. How is it determined who will go to Paradise, and who will go to spirit prison. Do you really believe that is up to us? Then the wicked will of course choose Paradise too. You are skirting the issue. Someone must make this determination. Who is our Judge? Yeshua is. He is the one who determines who adequately followed Him and repented. How about those resurrected before the end? How was it determined that they should be resurrected? Have they escaped the 2nd death? Do they have eternal life then? The conclusion seems inescapable.
Calm Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) "Well, being spirits, it is kind of hard to "see" with eyes" How do you think we saw God in the Preexistence if not with out spiritual eyes, spirit being material, just more refined (whatever that might mean)? What form do you believe our spiritual body takes if not human in shape, with eyes and ears and tongue to speak? Edited June 7, 2017 by Calm
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Calm said: "Well, being spirits, it is kind of hard to "see" with eyes" How do you think we saw God in the Preexistence if not with out spiritual eyes, spirit being material, just more refined (whatever that might mean)? What form do you believe our spiritual body takes if not human in shape, with eyes and ears and tongue to speak? I dunno. I was just conceding the point that the BoM does not use the word "eyes." It says most spirits return to God, and apparently "behold" His face. That implies some type of seeing. The Holy Spirit seems to be everywhere yet, does not seem to have a perceptible body. When the Lord says you are seeing the body of my spirit, He could be referencing a physical immortal tabernacle where His spirit normally resides within His soul. Sorry, I can't really answer you. Edited June 7, 2017 by RevTestament
Robert F. Smith Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: .Yes, I did I said "Their spirits do return to God who gave them according to Ecclesiastes, but the Westminster confession parrots Ecclesiastes inaccurately since their souls cannot make this journey without the body." Not only does Ecclesiastes say this, but the Book of Mormon says this. That our spirits return to the God who gave it - not created it. You really claim a difference between gave and create? And then you argue that at the instant of death all have a body, and it is in that form that they immediately return to God? I can't recall instant resurrection at the moment of death. 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: Well, being spirits, it is kind of hard to "see" with eyes, but 2 Nephi 9 does say: 38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. Correct. Thanks for pointing that out. However, that does not mean that the return is immediate. 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: You are thinking of "God" strictly in the sense of Heavenly Father. Yeshua has been every bit YHWH Elohim with the Father from the beginning. I don't think the wicked go to see Heavenly Father in their unrepentant state even as spirits, so this God is Yeshua whom they must face. John 5:22-23,27 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath acommitted all bjudgment unto the Son: The term "God" is a title, not a name, and the title is held by whomever fufils that function. But that deflects the issue from the claim that resurrection is immediate at the second one dies, and that is false. So, if you are claiming that all unresurrected spirits immediately go to see God at the moment of their death, I don't see how you can support that.
thesometimesaint Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 On 6/5/2017 at 7:43 AM, amo said: In Alma 40, we read that: 11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God: 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are… https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10 From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ? I do not believe it will be immediately.
CV75 Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 16 hours ago, RevTestament said: Jesus did go to preach the gospel to the wicked in spirit prison to convince those who could live godly to repent according to Peter. P.S. Peter 3: 18-20, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” The bolded part shows how Jesus did not go personally, as D&C 138 further explains. He set up the preaching of the gospel in the spirit prison “by the Spirit.” Those whom He commissions to preach the gospel do so by the Spirit (D&C 50:13-14).
CV75 Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, RevTestament said: Then i respectfully submit you do not believe 2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. This cannot be talking about he final judgment because they must ultimately repent to receive the telestial kingdom. Therefore, it is talking about remaining in the sins and being punished for them in spirit prison/hell. But they (those carnally-minded who refuse to change in the spirit world and upon whom this particular “wo” is pronounced) shall, in the resurrection, “return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.” I don’t understand what you mean by such a soul ultimately repenting before the resurrection and going to the telestial kingdom. He doesn’t have to repent (change from a carnal to a spiritual mind) to go to the telestial kingdom, but he is bound to receive his punishment. Which is the only reality a willingly carnally-minded person can wrap his mind around. And there are other ways people can remain carnally-minded and go to the terrestrial kingdom. 7 hours ago, RevTestament said: I never said the wicked will see the Father. Yeshua is our judge. i am saying the God being referenced in these BoM passages is Yeshua our Savior and judge. As you indicate He created us, and I believe determined which body would receive which spirit. You keep speaking in very general terms, so let me ask you a question. How is it determined who will go to Paradise, and who will go to spirit prison. Do you really believe that is up to us? Then the wicked will of course choose Paradise too. You are skirting the issue. Someone must make this determination. Who is our Judge? Yeshua is. He is the one who determines who adequately followed Him and repented. How about those resurrected before the end? How was it determined that they should be resurrected? Have they escaped the 2nd death? Do they have eternal life then? The conclusion seems inescapable. I will answer your question with a question: how is it determined that a person does anything that is good in appeasing the spiritual mind? (Answer: that person’s agency). The wicked choose against joining the Church and keeping their covenants as one with the saints and God. They cannot be of one heart and mind, nor of the same city, as Zion. That is how it plays out in the spirit world as well. And in the resurrection as well: In the resurrected state, Jesus judges us, but the title “Judge” is not scriptural in connection with Him, and likely does not apply solely to the function of deciding where an immortal souls spends eternity. The closest title/descriptor we have to “Judge” is Moses 6:57, wherein He is called “a [not the] righteous Judge.” The Old Testament uses the term for any leader or ruler, not just those presiding over legal decisions. The whole purpose of His atonement was to remove the purely legalistic considerations from the consequences of our agency, and introduce mercy and love into those consequences (as i alluded to in the question answering your question above). The following talk covers the many functions and aspects of a righteous judge: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/the-righteous-judge?lang=eng
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You really claim a difference between gave and create? And then you argue that at the instant of death all have a body, and it is in that form that they immediately return to God? I can't recall instant resurrection at the moment of death. The Hebrew nə·ṯā·nāh used in Eccl 12:7 always means gave. Its derivatives are sometimes translated as allowed, delivered or such. So yes, there is a difference between gave and create. Scriptures never say God created our spirits. Adam's body was created, and then God breathed life/his spirit into it. The body was created from dust. The spirit was not. This is quite clear in Ecclesiastes. I never argued that at the instant of death all have a body. I don't know where you are getting that from. Not even the Westminster Confession makes that error. I am saying, and said this clearly several times now, all return to God to receive their place in the spirit world - either Paradise or Spirit Prison/Hell. The only exception are those who are translated. They bypass the spirit world. This is like an immediate "resurrection" although their bodies may not be fully immortal. I can't really say. Quote Correct. Thanks for pointing that out. However, that does not mean that the return is immediate. I have never said the return is immediate. It is the next stop for the spirits of those who die. I don't know how long it takes for these spirits to reach Paradise or Hell. This may depend on guiding servants. Quote The term "God" is a title, not a name, and the title is held by whomever fufils that function. But that deflects the issue from the claim that resurrection is immediate at the second one dies, and that is false. So, if you are claiming that all unresurrected spirits immediately go to see God at the moment of their death, I don't see how you can support that. I am just explaining what these scriptures mean. I am interpreting them - apparently differently than you. I dislike the title "God." It is used very inaccurately in English for several of God's titles as you probably know - it is used for El, Eloah, Elohim, and would also be used for Elim if that were used more in scripture. Lord is similarly very misused - even moreso as it hides God's name, YHWH. Both Yeshua and Heavenly Father are referred to as YHWH Elohim in Gen 3:22 after they created man. It is clear from other parts of the OT that Yeshua is speaking as YHWH. Whatever the case, Yeshua is clearly referred to as Elohim in Hebrews, and thus "God" within the meaning of scripture. I believe He is also El Shaddai of the OT, or the Power that weans us from the breast(Yes, I disagree with "Orthodoxy" which follows the errant Septuagint and calls the Father El Shaddai in its creeds). Thus, still "God" within the meaning of scripture. The BoM says He is "God" with the Father and Holy Spirit. His role as our Judge indicates He would be the God spirits would return to be judged for their punishment in Hell. Again I never claimed "resurrection is immediate at the second one dies." I don't know where you are getting that from - I have never said that, and I don't believe Amo has either. I am saying spirits must receive a type of judgment to go either to Paradise or hell. This is not the last judgment. For the wicked resurrection may be delayed to the last when death and hell give up the dead to be resurrected and receive their final judgment(See Revelation 20). At this point I personally believe most will be bound for the Telestial kingdom, but I really don't know what the last resurrection will look like. Edited June 7, 2017 by RevTestament
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, CV75 said: But they (those carnally-minded who refuse to change in the spirit world and upon whom this particular “wo” is pronounced) shall, in the resurrection, “return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.” I don’t understand what you mean by such a soul ultimately repenting before the resurrection and going to the telestial kingdom. He doesn’t have to repent (change from a carnal to a spiritual mind) to go to the telestial kingdom, but he is bound to receive his punishment. Which is the only reality a willingly carnally-minded person can wrap his mind around. And there are other ways people can remain carnally-minded and go to the terrestrial kingdom. 106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; 107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. 108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever. 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; This indicates you are wrong. Those in the telestial world bow the knee and confess to Christ in the end. They repent or they don't earn the telestial kingdom. They go back to hell as sons of perdition. After suffering Hell most will gladly repent, and bow the knee for being saved. As scripture says, Jesus delivers the kingdom spotless - that includes the Telestial inhabitants. They cannot be spotless with a carnal being. Quote I will answer your question with a question: how is it determined that a person does anything that is good in appeasing the spiritual mind? (Answer: that person’s agency). The wicked choose against joining the Church and keeping their covenants as one with the saints and God. They cannot be of one heart and mind, nor of the same city, as Zion. That is how it plays out in the spirit world as well. And in the resurrection as well: Not according to scripture. See above where in the resurrection even the wicked of the Telestial kingdom bow the knee for they are no longer wicked, but have been made spotless through the atonement after suffering their punishment. Quote In the resurrected state, Jesus judges us, but the title “Judge” is not scriptural in connection with Him, and likely does not apply solely to the function of deciding where an immortal souls spends eternity. The closest title/descriptor we have to “Judge” is Moses 6:57, wherein He is called “a [not the] righteous Judge.” The Old Testament uses the term for any leader or ruler, not just those presiding over legal decisions. The whole purpose of His atonement was to remove the purely legalistic considerations from the consequences of our agency, and introduce mercy and love into those consequences (as i alluded to in the question answering your question above). The following talk covers the many functions and aspects of a righteous judge: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/the-righteous-judge?lang=en You are completely guessing here. For righteousness in punishment a judgment has to be made. Christ makes this judgment, and the Father executes it.
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 8 hours ago, RevTestament said: What makes God, God is His word. Think about that. I'm not harping on you MFB - really. But we do not have to have "infinite knowledge" to become one with God. He has given us what we need to know. Yes, most just see the milk - the basic kindergarten number skills - but some will perceive the meat of His oracles. Start at Hebrews. I never said that. Can you be one with a baby? How much do they know?
Robert F. Smith Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: ....................................... I never argued that at the instant of death all have a body. .................................................................. I have never said the return is immediate. ................................................... Good, but it took you forever to admit that. Now, if we can just get amo to admit that as well. 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: ................................................ Again I never claimed "resurrection is immediate at the second one dies." I don't know where you are getting that from - I have never said that, and I don't believe Amo has either. I am saying spirits must receive a type of judgment to go either to Paradise or hell. This is not the last judgment. For the wicked resurrection may be delayed to the last when death and hell give up the dead to be resurrected and receive their final judgment(See Revelation 20). ..................................... I really don't know what the last resurrection will look like. O.K., but I was under the impression that you both were claiming that the bodiless spirit immediately went to God. You spent too much time discussing other issues.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, CV75 said: P.S. Peter 3: 18-20, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” The bolded part shows how Jesus did not go personally, as D&C 138 further explains. He set up the preaching of the gospel in the spirit prison “by the Spirit.” Those whom He commissions to preach the gospel do so by the Spirit (D&C 50:13-14). I disagree. The bolded part shows exactly how he went: as a disembodied spirit before being resurrected. Matthew 12:40 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be athree days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. D&C 138 does not say Jesus did not go the spirit prison. In fact it indicates some were joyful at the thought of being delivered from hell: 14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. 15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. 16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death. 17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. 18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; 19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. 20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. 22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace; 23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell. So Jesus apparently went to spirit prison/hell just like D&C 138 says but only preached to the repentant. This is corroborated by these verses: 29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. Where do those go who die in their sins? To hell. Those who became repentant and open to the gospel received Yeshua. As Peter says, he taught those who could live godly. D&C 138 is referring to the wicked as those who openly rejected the gospel in verse 29. Thus, Jesus went into the darkness Himself and brought light, and taught the gospel. Those in Paradise did not need this teaching. So I will amend what I said to say that Jesus went to Spirit prison to teach the gospel so those who could live godly - could be saved and resurrected with him. Those spirits who already rejected God's message or who did not come to listen He did not go to. D&C is saying that not everyone in Spirit Prison is "wicked" but they are still paying the penalty for their sin. There is just a bifurcation of wickedness in my view between the open deniers and others.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Good, but it took you forever to admit that. Now, if we can just get amo to admit that as well. O.K., but I was under the impression that you both were claiming that the bodiless spirit immediately went to God. You spent too much time discussing other issues. Well, I am basically saying that. It is their next stop. The bodiless spirit goes to God before going to Paradise or Hell. Even you are admitting that is what I said so where you got "resurrection" from I don't know.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I never said that. Can you be one with a baby? How much do they know? Don't get all bent out of shape mfb. Perhaps we are talking past each other. To me you're implying that somehow we can't understand God because of the imperfection of language. Yet you seem to contradict yourself in saying that God gives us what we need(teach even us all we need to know, and that is what we have). But that this is still basic "kindergarten" stuff. God cannot teach real experiences with words. Sometimes we just have to experience it to understand. But I posit that His words guide us in the right direction and tell us where to go. Perhaps you are alluding to that. I am saying His Word is what makes Him God, so to understand it in all our imperfectness, we are much closer to the kingdom of God than you seem to be expressing. I am not sure what you are trying to say perhaps, so am ready to listen... Based on what I know to fully understand God we must experience some things for ourselves. These things aren't really expressible in words, so if that is what you mean, I agree. But that is not a reason to dismiss the value of language. It is the medium God has chosen to see who will seek after truth. Once one heads down that path, sometimes language is not enough to fully understand God. We cannot fully relate our experiences to others. Nor can God - at least not through language. These are my points. If that is what you meant, then we agree.
CV75 Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 59 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So I will amend what I said to say that Jesus went to Spirit prison to teach the gospel so those who could live godly - could be saved and resurrected with him. Those spirits who already rejected God's message or who did not come to listen He did not go to. D&C is saying that not everyone in Spirit Prison is "wicked" but they are still paying the penalty for their sin. There is just a bifurcation of wickedness in my view between the open deniers and others. I didn’t say Jesus was resurrected before visiting the spirit world, but that He went there by the Spirit, and set things up for the gospel to be taught there by the Spirit. I’m not sure how your amendment counters or changes that, or shows that the departed spirits must pass by and meet Him first along the way—whether immediately or as it comes to pass. The spirit world is a form of bondage for the righteous (D&C 45:17; 138:50) but they still dwell in spirit paradise. 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: This indicates you are wrong. Those in the telestial world bow the knee and confess to Christ in the end. They repent or they don't earn the telestial kingdom. They go back to hell as sons of perdition. After suffering Hell most will gladly repent, and bow the knee for being saved. As scripture says, Jesus delivers the kingdom spotless - that includes the Telestial inhabitants. They cannot be spotless with a carnal being. What you are describing is not repentance (Mosiah 27:31 shows how this is so). Being compelled to be humble, and feeling gratitude for salvation is not repentance. If you want to frame it as a nuanced kind of repentance, fine, but the kingdom in verse 107 is not the telestial kingdom, it is His kingdom. In verse 108, He sits there because it is spotless, and where no unclean thing can enter. Then in verse 108, we return to the description of the telestial world. Paying the price for sin is not repentance; it punishment following the refusal of redemption. it is the kind of transaction a carnally-minded person accepts because he cannot abide love, mercy and obedience. And of course, in his mind, being immortal is worth it, as are bowing down and confessing (which in his mind are part of the punishment). 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Not according to scripture. See above where in the resurrection even the wicked of the Telestial kingdom bow the knee for they are no longer wicked, but have been made spotless through the atonement after suffering their punishment. See above. 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: You are completely guessing here. For righteousness in punishment a judgment has to be made. Christ makes this judgment, and the Father executes it. Not so. Christ delegates most of the judgement (Mormon 3;18-19for example); judgment means presiding, which at the judgement bar entails the provision of post-resurrection habitations but it is a lot more than that (hence the various forms of ministration described in D&C 76); and, He doesn’t do it for sending people into the paradise or prison of the spirit world. You haven't provided a reference for "Christ is Judge" in the same way He is described as King, Light, Life, Law, etc.
amo Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Well, I am basically saying that. It is their next stop. The bodiless spirit goes to God before going to Paradise or Hell. Even you are admitting that is what I said so where you got "resurrection" from I don't know. And that is what I'm saying as well. No idea where Robert got "resurrection" from either. I base my opinion on the sequence of events described by Alma, which to me is quite clear & very well divided or separated by the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, as I mentioned before. It surprises me a lot to see how many here seem to have missed it. Let’s see it again. Alma says that: 1) As soon as we die “the spirits of all men are taken home to that God who gave them life.” Notice how Alma has a name for this event, he calls it the “raising of the spirit or the soul”, see verse 15 -well, JS’s choice of word. Length of time not mentioned. After this first event, the “raising of the spirit or the soul”, comes the “consignation to happiness or misery” (“consignation” is again how Alma calls this event/act, or assignment, see verse 15 –again, JS’s choice of word): 2) “the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise” 3) “the spirits of the wicked … shall be cast out into outer darkness” And, finally, both the righteous & the wicked… 4) …remain in their state in the spirit world “until the time of their resurrection.” Well, let me now, summarize this *sequence of events. According to Alma, we have that “the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, go through: 1) a “raising of the spirit or the soul” 2) a “consignation to happiness”, paradise for the righteous 3) a “consignation to misery”, hell for the wicked 4) a sojourn in what we call the spirit world –both righteous & wicked *Length of time allotted to each event/sequence is not indicated by Alma.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, CV75 said: I didn’t say Jesus was resurrected before visiting the spirit world, but that He went there by the Spirit, and set things up for the gospel to be taught there by the Spirit. I’m not sure how your amendment counters or changes that, or shows that the departed spirits must pass by and meet Him first along the way—whether immediately or as it comes to pass. The spirit world is a form of bondage for the righteous (D&C 45:17; 138:50) but they still dwell in spirit paradise. What you are describing is not repentance (Mosiah 27:31 shows how this is so). Being compelled to be humble, and feeling gratitude for salvation is not repentance. If you want to frame it as a nuanced kind of repentance, fine, but the kingdom in verse 107 is not the telestial kingdom, it is His kingdom. In verse 108, He sits there because it is spotless, and where no unclean thing can enter. Then in verse 108, we return to the description of the telestial world. Paying the price for sin is not repentance; it punishment following the refusal of redemption. it is the kind of transaction a carnally-minded person accepts because he cannot abide love, mercy and obedience. And of course, in his mind, being immortal is worth it, as are bowing down and confessing (which in his mind are part of the punishment). See above. Not so. Christ delegates most of the judgement (Mormon 3;18-19for example); judgment means presiding, which at the judgement bar entails the provision of post-resurrection habitations but it is a lot more than that (hence the various forms of ministration described in D&C 76); and, He doesn’t do it for sending people into the paradise or prison of the spirit world. You haven't provided a reference for "Christ is Judge" in the same way He is described as King, Light, Life, Law, etc. You seem to be confounding Spirit Prison with Paradise. I believe Spirit Prison is for those spirits who are being punished for sin. Those in Paradise died in Christ, and being without sin are not punished. Then you seem to be trying to tell me that Jesus only went to spirit Paradise. This is not supported by a plain reading of 1 Peter nor D&C 138. D&C 138 is just bifurcating those in Spirit Prison into those who died without the truth, and are being punished for their sin, and those who openly rejected truth ("the wicked"). Both are being punished, and both are experiencing the chains of Hell. I am not implying repentance is in any way forced. I think I clearly indicated that after experiencing Hell, most are gladly repentant, and bend the knee. The Kingdom of Christ is not only the upper realms of the Celestial Kingdom. Is not the Father the Father of spirits? How did He become so? Are you going to say we were all "born" through spiritual sex or something? No we are His children in the same way we will be Christ's children - through repentance and accepting Him as our Savior. The Telestial Kingdom is "saved." You want Christ to save them without them ever repenting. That won't happen. That is contrary to the gospel. Christ will not force salvation upon them. They must seek it. They must repent. Again I am not in any way implying that repentance is forced. They don't have to repent. They can always accept their lot as sons of perdition, and accept Satan as their master.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 21 minutes ago, amo said: And that is what I'm saying as well. No idea where Robert got "resurrection" from either. Well in fairness to Robert, he may have been referencing Alma 40: 15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken. 16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead. 17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth. 18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ. I really don't know who these "some" are. But they weren't me. I only refer to resurrection as a reuniting of body, soul and spirit, and have not used the term with reference to what happens when we die.
CV75 Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 36 minutes ago, RevTestament said: You seem to be confounding Spirit Prison with Paradise. I believe Spirit Prison is for those spirits who are being punished for sin. Those in Paradise died in Christ, and being without sin are not punished. Then you seem to be trying to tell me that Jesus only went to spirit Paradise. This is not supported by a plain reading of 1 Peter nor D&C 138. D&C 138 is just bifurcating those in Spirit Prison into those who died without the truth, and are being punished for their sin, and those who openly rejected truth ("the wicked"). Both are being punished, and both are experiencing the chains of Hell. I am not implying repentance is in any way forced. I think I clearly indicated that after experiencing Hell, most are gladly repentant, and bend the knee. The Kingdom of Christ is not only the upper realms of the Celestial Kingdom. Is not the Father the Father of spirits? How did He become so? Are you going to say we were all "born" through spiritual sex or something? No we are His children in the same way we will be Christ's children - through repentance and accepting Him as our Savior. The Telestial Kingdom is "saved." You want Christ to save them without them ever repenting. That won't happen. That is contrary to the gospel. Christ will not force salvation upon them. They must seek it. They must repent. Again I am not in any way implying that repentance is forced. They don't have to repent. They can always accept their lot as sons of perdition, and accept Satan as their master. No, I am not confounding the two. You do seem to be ignoring D&C 138:12-20 (where in verse 19 He is preaching to the choir, who already lived the gospel on earth), and 36-37 where many of the righteous prophets are unresurrected spirits. And you seem to be both confounding and conflating repentance with thankful acquiescence. Don’t do that! Inasmuch as all are saved to a degree in a degree of glory, all are repentant to that same degree (or not). The operation of grace (which you haven’t mentioned for obvious reasons) has so much to do with this that the multiple other concepts you’ve also confounded and conflated create a bog of confusion. And you still haven't provided a reference for "Christ the Judge," betraying the limitations of your understanding of how He judges, and what it entails.
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 18 minutes ago, CV75 said: And you seem to be both confounding and conflating repentance with thankful acquiescence. Don’t do that! Inasmuch as all are saved to a degree in a degree of glory, all are repentant to that same degree (or not). The operation of grace (which you haven’t mentioned for obvious reasons) has so much to do with this that the multiple other concepts you’ve also confounded and conflated create a bog of confusion. D&C 138:58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. D&C 76: 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. I am not confused at all nor confounding repentance. Scripture tells us that 1. all will be redeemed except the sons of Perdition. 2. only the dead who repent will be redeemed. I don't know where you are getting the degrees of repentance stuff from. Is that doctrine of CV75? Scripture please?
CV75 Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I am not confused at all nor confounding repentance. Scripture tells us that 1. all will be redeemed except the sons of Perdition. 2. only the dead who repent will be redeemed. I don't know where you are getting the degrees of repentance stuff from. Is that doctrine of CV75? Scripture please? You'll have to do more / better than that to engage in an actual discussion. And answer this CFR: "Christ is Judge." Edited June 7, 2017 by CV75
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: Based on what I know to fully understand God we must experience some things for ourselves. These things aren't really expressible in words, so if that is what you mean, I agree. But that is not a reason to dismiss the value of language. It is the medium God has chosen to see who will seek after truth. Once one heads down that path, sometimes language is not enough to fully understand God. We cannot fully relate our experiences to others. Nor can God - at least not through language. These are my points. If that is what you meant, then we agree. No problem- yep that's what I meant. The world and all in it is created by the Word and that's all we have, but it's still through a glass darkly and not face to face. The Messenger IS the living message and we see the world as He has created us to see it. But seeing it is not saying it. Direct experience trumps description. See the Rorty quote yet again, below. Edited June 7, 2017 by mfbukowski
RevTestament Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: You'll have to do more / better than that to engage in an actual discussion. I gave you authoritative scripture. You gave me 2 sentences which appear to be your opinion: "Inasmuch as all are saved to a degree in a degree of glory, all are repentant to that same degree (or not). The operation of grace (which you haven’t mentioned for obvious reasons) has so much to do with this that the multiple other concepts you’ve also confounded and conflated create a bog of confusion." I don't "have to do" anything more. You appear to be adopting a condescending tone and high falut'in platitudes. CFR for your claim about degrees of repentance. Quote And answer this CFR: "Christ is Judge." I did already way back: 14 hours ago, RevTestament said: John 5:22-23,27 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath acommitted all bjudgment unto the Son:
Recommended Posts