Will we personally meet with God IMMEDIATELY after death?

[amo]

In Alma 40, we read that:

11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.”

 

Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are…

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10

 

From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ?

Edited June 5, 2017 by amo

[amo]

Notice how the French translation of these verses conveys the same interpretation by also using the same adverbial phrase –verse 12, “et alors”:

 

les esprits de tous les hommes, dès qu’ils quittent ce corps mortel, oui, les esprits de tous les hommes, qu’ils soient bons ou mauvais, sont ramenés auprès de ce Dieu qui leur a donné la vie.

12 Et alors, il arrivera que les esprits de ceux qui …

 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=fra

[amo]

 

In Spanish, however, the same adverbial phrase was left out :

12 [No adverbial phrase ] Y sucederá que los espíritus de los que …

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=spa

Edited June 5, 2017 by amo

[strappinglad]

Many of the NDE experiences indicate that they are introduced to a " God-like " presence who shows them a life review. Whether this is the Father or Christ is debatable, perhaps an agent sent from God.

The Spanish does use the future tense which does suggest a progression of time.

Edited June 5, 2017 by strappinglad

[amo]

So you're saying then that there will be a meeting with some-1 immediately after we die?

[amo]

A “yes” answer seems to be supported also by Jacob. He said :

2 Ne. 9:38
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Edited June 5, 2017 by amo

[strappinglad]

1 minute ago, amo said:

So you're saying then that there will be a meeting with some-1 immediately after we die?

That is apparently the pattern.

[amo]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

That is apparently the pattern.

But on the other hand, some leaders of the Church tend to disagree with that interpreteation-"pattern". 

This is what the Book of Mormon Student Manual, (2009), 242–47 –internet version- has to say about it:

“President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained that Alma did not necessarily mean that we are brought back into God’s presence: “These words of Alma [40:11] as I understand them, do not intend to convey the thought that all spirits go back into the presence of God for an assignment to a place of peace or a place of punishment and before him receive their individual sentence. ‘Taken home to God’ [compare Ecclesiastes 12:7] simply means that their mortal existence has come to an end, and they have returned to the world of spirits, where they are assigned to a place according to their works with the just or with the unjust, there to await the resurrection…” …” (Answers to Gospel Questions, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66], 2:85).

“President George Q. Cannon (1827–1901) of the First Presidency explained that Alma “does not intend to convey the idea that they are immediately ushered into the personal presence of God. He evidently uses that phrase in a qualified sense” …” (Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, sel. Jerreld L. Newquist [1987], 58).

 

[amo]

Byron Merrill, professor of ancient scripture, taught at the BYU Education Week, on Monday, Aug. 17 2009, that such a “reunion” with God is a wrong interpretation, as published on the Deseret News on Aug. 18, 2009, 12:17 a.m, by Molly Farmer @mollyfarmer :

"Reunion with God not immediate, Y. prof says

 "Many Christian denominations hold that immediately following death, a person is welcomed into the presence of God. While even certain verses of Mormon scripture might lend themselves to this thinking, it's the wrong interpretation, Merrill said. Alma 40:11 states that people who die are "taken home to that God who gave them life," but Merrill said that doesn't mean the deceased meet God right away, and all latter-day revelation supports this. "There's no sense that we go into the immediate presence of God," Merrill said. "We must be resurrected first." ..."

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, amo said:

In Alma 40, we read that:

11 “…the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.”

 

Notice how on the following verse, the use of the adverbial phrase “and then”, tends to put an end to the first idea-meeting with God- and helps to introduce a second one, i.e., what happens after that meeting with God:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are…

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.11?lang=eng#10

 

From the above, are we to understand that immediately after we die, we –our spirits- will meet with God –Jesus/Elohim? - ?

I think in verses 12 and and 13, "it shall come to pass" indicates that some time is passing between steps, stages or events (for example, in verse 14, they are "looking for" the next state).

D&C 88:26-32 indicates that after this waiting period, we are then quickened by a portion of glory that reflects our spiritual preparedness for the corresponding levels of law that we have kept in mortality (and there is an order of resurrection, also indicating a waiting period); then we stand before God (can't do that without a body); and then we receive the fulness of immortal glory that we are willing tor receive, with those not remaining in God's presence "to return again to "their own place."

 

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Many of the NDE experiences indicate that they are introduced to a " God-like " presence who shows them a life review. Whether this is the Father or Christ is debatable, perhaps an agent sent from God.

I wouldn't put too much stock on NDEs. They tend to fit people's expectations and vary a great deal by religion and culture. While I don't want to say none are real, I suspect the majority are just due to lack of oxygen to the brain.

Also most people will be going to spirit prison. I suspect to make missionary work fair if for no other reason you can expect that it won't be clear what is going on. I suspect on the other side there would be a wide variety of interpretations including atheistic ones. Perhaps the persistence of the soul will change things quite a bit but I think by and large meeting God would interfere with that.  For people going to paradise that is probably temporary and they'll be sent on missions to spirit prison. I doubt we'd meet God then, although it's possible. More likely we'll meet leaders who will direct us -- likely family members like a father, mother or grandparents.

Edited June 5, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I wouldn't put too much stock on NDEs. They tend to fit people's expectations and vary a great deal by religion and culture. While I don't want to say none are real, I suspect the majority are just due to lack of oxygen to the brain.

Also most people will be going to spirit prison. I suspect to make missionary work fair if for no other reason you can expect that it won't be clear what is going on. I suspect on the other side there would be a wide variety of interpretations including atheistic ones. Perhaps the persistence of the soul will change things quite a bit but I think by and large meeting God would interfere with that.  For people going to paradise that is probably temporary and they'll be sent on missions to spirit prison. I doubt we'd meet God then, although it's possible. More likely we'll meet leaders who will direct us -- likely family members like a father, mother or grandparents.

It always surprises me when faithful LDS don't put stock into NDE's. Especially since they believe that there is a thin veil between them and the other side. Also, that they don't believe in ghosts, or those that linger. If there is an afterlife, why not believe in these things? The only thing I can think of is because the NDE's that are told are all so similar and really aren't conforming with the beliefs the LDS have about the afterlife. 

[clarkgoble]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

It always surprises me when faithful LDS don't put stock into NDE's. Especially since they believe that there is a thin veil between them and the other side. Also, that they don't believe in ghosts, or those that linger. If there is an afterlife, why not believe in these things? The only thing I can think of is because the NDE's that are told are all so similar and really aren't conforming with the beliefs the LDS have about the afterlife. 

It's more because I don't think the people are really dead nor the spirit has left the body. But as to why, it's more due to the secular investigation of what happens to the brain during oxygen deprivation as well as studies on what happens in purported astral projection. So for instance scientists placed large cards with letters on on top of various shelving. If the astral projection (floating above ones body) was real and not just a creation of the brain then the cards should be seen. They aren't. There are other reasons to be skeptical and that link mentions a few of them.

Again, I don't want to say they never happen. Just that one should be skeptical taking them at face value. 

 

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It always surprises me when faithful LDS don't put stock into NDE's. Especially since they believe that there is a thin veil between them and the other side. Also, that they don't believe in ghosts, or those that linger. If there is an afterlife, why not believe in these things? The only thing I can think of is because the NDE's that are told are all so similar and really aren't conforming with the beliefs the LDS have about the afterlife. 

Rep point...from one who left her body and returned. 

[Jeanne]

I don't know who will greet me for sure.I don't plan on meeting the Savior for awhile..Mom said she would come get me and give me a tour..  I plan on it..She is going to lead me to my husband...who has a nice house..and with out lost child..I don't care about anything else..the kingdoms, the glory..the planets..none of that. 

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I don't know who will greet me for sure.I don't plan on meeting the Savior for awhile..Mom said she would come get me and give me a tour..  I plan on it..She is going to lead me to my husband...who has a nice house..and with out lost child..I don't care about anything else..the kingdoms, the glory..the planets..none of that. 

I will certainly hope for this kind of heaven as well. My niece who is a Medium, talks about my parents on the other side, and it's so special to hear that they are together and enjoying life on the other side!

I know that some LDS don't take stock in Mediums as well, my husband for one is a skeptic of ghosts and Mediums, but it's kind of hard to think my niece is a liar. She has had so many tell her otherwise.

I read a lot of NDE books after my folks died, they died within a month of each other. So it was a big blow. And there seemed to be a running theme in them. 

Good to see you on the board again Jeanne, missed your posts.

[clarkgoble]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I know that some LDS don't take stock in Mediums as well, my husband for one is a skeptic of ghosts and Mediums, but it's kind of hard to think my niece is a liar. She has had so many tell her otherwise.

Just to note I'm not saying people are lying. Rather I'm saying in many cases it's an artifact of the brain. You can induce people into NDEs which makes it seem more likely to be due to the way the brain works. Much like schizophrenics aren't hearing real voices. Again I'm not saying it never happens, just that if you are already in a state where typically your brain is being heavily affected by drugs and trauma there are reasons to demand a higher standard of evidence. People who'd never trust experiences by people on LSD or Ketamine are more than willing to trust experiences by people under typically three different class of heavy drugs that knock them out during surgery.

Edited June 5, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Just to note I'm not saying people are lying. Rather I'm saying in many cases it's an artifact of the brain. You can induce people into NDEs which makes it seem more likely to be due to the way the brain works. Much like schizophrenics aren't hearing real voices. Again I'm not saying it never happens, just that if you are already in a state where typically your brain is being heavily affected by drugs and trauma there are reasons to demand a higher standard of evidence. People who'd never trust experiences by people on LSD or Ketamine are more than willing to trust experiences by people under typically three different class of heavy drugs that knock them out during surgery.

I've read NDE's that in them say the person oversaw everything that went on in the surgery room for instance, and the people verified they indeed did see what was happening. That just nails it for me I guess. And I wasn't insinuating that you thought them liars, just making sure you knew that.  

[clarkgoble]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've read NDE's that in them say the person oversaw everything that went on in the surgery room for instance, and the people verified they indeed did see what was happening. That just nails it for me I guess. And I wasn't insinuating that you thought them liars, just making sure you knew that.  

I've not seen reports that confirm that. There are lots of reports of people claiming to see things, but typically it's things extrapolated from what they could know from where they were. That's why putting the marked cards was an important study.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

I've not seen reports that confirm that. There are lots of reports of people claiming to see things, but typically it's things extrapolated from what they could know from where they were. That's why putting the marked cards was an important study.

I know that all of these might not be fact, but an inordinate amount seems like there is something real to the NDE's.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html

http://iands.org/resources/media-resources/front-page-news/1060-aware-study-initial-results-are-published.html This source may include the test you were talking about.

Too many testimonials to say that they are false, IMO. http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html

And here are some that report on what happened to them while they were gone, one was blind. http://crossexamined.org/surprising-evidence-god-near-death-experiences/

[clarkgoble]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://iands.org/resources/media-resources/front-page-news/1060-aware-study-initial-results-are-published.html This source may include the test you were talking about.

Well it includes elements of the test -- which no one passed and only one person out of 2000+ had accurate information of the environment. For them though the accurate information was information they could have heard or seen from the operating table. So that's not very impressive. Also they made a big deal of heartbeat, but not brain death. That again is significant since the issue is that the brain is still alive but that it's suffering oxygen loss leading to the experiences.

Again just to be clear I'm not denying NDEs, just noting that almost always there's information reaching the patient which the brain can integrate into constructed experiences. 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by clarkgoble

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

It's more because I don't think the people are really dead nor the spirit has left the body. But as to why, it's more due to the secular investigation of what happens to the brain during oxygen deprivation as well as studies on what happens in purported astral projection. So for instance scientists placed large cards with letters on on top of various shelving. If the astral projection (floating above ones body) was real and not just a creation of the brain then the cards should be seen. They aren't. There are other reasons to be skeptical and that link mentions a few of them.

Again, I don't want to say they never happen. Just that one should be skeptical taking them at face value. 

 

I don't know when I was dead I could see my body strapped to a gurney down below and I could read what was on the side of the Vans out of the window down in the parking lot. There is no way I could see these vans strapped to that bed.

[clarkgoble]

19 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I don't know when I was dead I could see my body strapped to a gurney down below and I could read what was on the side of the Vans out of the window down in the parking lot. There is no way I could see these vans strapped to that bed.

No but you might have seen them while somewhere else in the hospital and just not remembered with the brain then reconstituting it from information you didn't consciously know.

I know that sounds really picky, but that's why you have to do double blind studies in science. The unconscious tends to pick up on these things in a lot of ways you don't realize. The brain gathers much more information than we realize and can detect patterns we often aren't aware of. So you get a lot of unconscious communication that undermines a lot of studies that aren't carefully designed. You see that for instance a lot in animal communication studies.

That's why the hidden cards on the shelves is considered the key bit of evidence that no one has yet passed.

Again to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't real NDEs. I'm saying why I personally am skeptical of them due to the lack of this evidence and the problem of the drugs the brain is exposed to typically.

Edited June 5, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

No but you might have seen them while somewhere else in the hospital and just not remembered with the brain then reconstituting it from information you didn't consciously know.

I know that sounds really picky, but that's why you have to do double blind studies in science. The unconscious tends to pick up on these things in a lot of ways you don't realize. The brain gathers much more information than we realize and can detect patterns we often aren't aware of. So you get a lot of unconscious communication that undermines a lot of studies that aren't carefully designed. You see that for instance a lot in animal communication studies.

That's why the hidden cards on the shelves is considered the key bit of evidence that no one has yet passed.

Again to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't real NDEs. I'm saying why I personally am skeptical of them due to the lack of this aevidence and the problem of the drugs the brain is exposed to typically.

I haven't read the study, could you link or did I overlook it, read through some links pretty quickly. Also, the hidden cards how is someone supposed to see those if they are hidden? Maybe if I read the study, I wouldn't have asked a possibly really dumb question.

[stemelbow]

Depending ont he circumstances of my death, I might not want to meet Him immediately after I die.  I might be liable to say something I'll regret for eternity.