Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Regarding the Word of Wisdom's effect on the use of wine/water...... The LDS sacrament is prepared by 14 and 15-year-old-boys who occasionally may suffer from lapses in judgement. Shocking, but true. Edited June 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
RevTestament Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Most people drink alcohol responsibly, a few go onto to become alcoholics. Children of alcoholics are much more prone to become alcoholics themselves So there is a genetic component. About 30% of college age kids are considered to abuse alcohol, and about 30% of these can be considered alcoholics. Yes, I realize there is a genetic component but some of these studies indicate the expression(epigenetics) of these genes can vary depending on one's exposure to alcohol. It's not like there is a gene that determines one will be an alcoholic. There is a gene that has been identified to be connected with a high metabolization rate of alcohol - so less risk of alcoholism. Whether one's parents drink, the age of onset and other environmental factors play a role. It is believed in about half of alcoholics environmental factors are the leading cause rather than genetics. For example people with depression or anxiety are much more likely to become alcoholic. I believe the genetic risk factors have more to do with epigenetics which are malleable, and can change after just one or two generations. In other words the disease of alcoholism itself changes one's epigenetics causing increased risk factors for their children. I will continue to maintain that just about anyone can become an alcoholic. Most people leading happy lives will probably not. Alcoholism primarily affects the poor, mentally ill, etc. Make a rich person, a poor, divorced single guy through bankruptcy, etc, and the risk substantially goes up. My point in bringing up the subject was not to debate the causes of alcoholism. The point was that if everyone followed the word of wisdom there would be little to no alcoholism(I don't interpret it to prohibit beer). About 50% of alcoholic cases are caused by environmental factors which coincidentally are when people are at their weak moments - depression, anxiety, divorce, etc. Learned traits, personality types, etc all play a role. Alcohol is a drug which affects everyone who drinks it., even if they don't get drunk. Just like cocaine affects everyone who takes it. It may manifest itself in diabetes rather than drunkeness. There may be some rare cases of immunity to alcohol dependence, but otherwise just about anyone can get it given the wrong circumstances.
pogi Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Did we administer wine as part of the sacrament to baptized children pre-D&C 27? MiserereNobis, what about the Catholic church, do you have to be of legal age to consume alcohol in order to partake of communion? I am not terribly familiar with Catholic communion, is the communion associated with covenants like the LDS? Is there any promised blessings with partaking of the communion or is it done purely in remembrance of the Savior?
thesometimesaint Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 30% of 20 million college students is between 6-7 million. The number of people in US is about 320 million. I'm not saying that alcoholism isn't a problem. Just not a problem for the vast majority of Americans. If everyone followed the WoW by definition there would be few if any alcoholics. You can live live a long and happy life and not drink any alcohol. BTW Beer is an alcoholic drink. You can get just a drunk on beer as drinking Everclear it just takes more beer. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)
Storm Rider Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 13 hours ago, RevTestament said: There is nothing wrong with it being purely symbolic. I think most scripture and Christian rites/ordinances are that way. I see a problem with adoring "things." And the time will come for the Gentiles when God will destroy their images, and false things of worship. This is something we should not want to learn... Hello Rev, I think there may be a misunderstanding here, but a Catholic may explain better than I. The Eucharist, the wafer, only has significance because of the symbolism, the perception of what it represents. Yes, Catholics do believe in the mystical transubstantiation of the host into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The point is that if it was just a wafer it is meaningless and there is no adoration. The adoration only exists because of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. As far as the statues, paintings, etc., I have been a lover of art my entire life. If I find beauty there I appreciate it. I value you it even more when it makes me think of the Savior and our Father in Heaven.
JLHPROF Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, pogi said: Did we administer wine as part of the sacrament to baptized children pre-D&C 27? Quite possibly. It was apparently somewhat common. To the astonishment of observers like Trollope, Americans everywhere—men, women, and children—drank whiskey all day long. American consumption of distilled spirits climbed precipitously, from two and a half gallons a person in 1790 to seven gallons in 1830, the highest amount of any time in American history and a figure three times today’s consumption rate. https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng But D&C 27 was received in August 1830, allowing for the use of water. At the end of 1830 there were probably about 300 members total. Usage of wine for sacrament continued in the Church for many decades after D&C 27. 1
Lemuel Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 On 6/3/2017 at 9:31 PM, MiserereNobis said: Just to clarify. Of course LDS are going to disagree, but I want you to know what Catholics actually believe about the origins of Catholic doctrines. Catholic doctrines do not come from an interpretation of the Bible. We are not protestants and are certainly not evangelicals. Catholic doctrines come from the the Apostles, who learned them from Christ, and then were passed down to the bishops. The Magisterium, which is the priesthood authority of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him, has the authority to clarify and define the doctrines that have been passed down. The Bible is not the source of the doctrines (don't forget that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together 300 years after Christ... the doctrines were all there prior to the official promulgation of the Bible). The Bible is the canonical scripture that supports the doctrines given by the Apostles. ETA: this is one of the similarities between Mormons and Catholics. Neither of us claim the Bible as the source of our doctrines, but instead claim that the authority of God gave us the doctrines which are then clearly supported by the Bible. Aye. It was the Mormon Magisterium that turned wine into water for the LDS sacrament.
MiserereNobis Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 10 hours ago, pogi said: MiserereNobis, what about the Catholic church, do you have to be of legal age to consume alcohol in order to partake of communion? I am not terribly familiar with Catholic communion, is the communion associated with covenants like the LDS? Is there any promised blessings with partaking of the communion or is it done purely in remembrance of the Savior? Most states have a religious exemption rule for communion, which can be traced back to prohibition, so no, you do not have to be of legal age for communion. I've heard there are a few states that don't have the exemption, but I can't imagine them prosecuting a child and a priest for communion. Also, I primarily attend a traditional Latin Mass, where only the priest partakes of the wine. Communion in Catholicism gives great blessings. It not only renews covenants (the LDS terms), but it also forgives sins and unites us with God and our fellow communicates. It is the greatest and highest blessing of Catholic ritual. 3
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: but it also forgives sins learn something new every day...
Calm Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: It not only renews covenants (the LDS terms), but it also forgives sins and unites us with God and our fellow communicates. Our Sacrament does the same, being a renewal of our baptismal covenant. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/34594/34594_000_014_02-covenants.pdf Can't be shown as images, but lists among other things "come into the fold of God" and "the Lord covenants...to forgive my sins". https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/baptism?lang=eng "When you were baptized, you entered into a covenant with God...You renew this covenant each time you partake of the sacrament (see 20:77, 79)." Edited June 6, 2017 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Most states have a religious exemption rule for communion, which can be traced back to prohibition, so no, you do not have to be of legal age for communion. I've heard there are a few states that don't have the exemption, but I can't imagine them prosecuting a child and a priest for communion. Also, I primarily attend a traditional Latin Mass, where only the priest partakes of the wine. Communion in Catholicism gives great blessings. It not only renews covenants (the LDS terms), but it also forgives sins and unites us with God and our fellow communicates. It is the greatest and highest blessing of Catholic ritual. Of course historically children drank wine mixed with water which also helped to kill bacteria. It's hard for life-long Mormons to understand sometimes that fermented beverages are virtually universal in humankind and have been so even before we had government ID's, and were a normal part of life and growing up. I remember being taught about responsible drinking from an early age, with sips of champagne and wine on special occasions, a taste of beer etc. And that is normal behavior I think - it certainly was in my family and extended family. My very Catholic mother innocently gave my son a sip of beer which he promptly spit out at the age of 5, just so he would not be tempted to drink it later. She had no idea we would think anything of it. My poor sweet LDS wife was mortified, not knowing that that kind of thing was pretty routine in my family. It's hard for converts like me, even today to fully comprehend that these great folks have never tasted a drop of alcohol and are not even aware of the difference between "sweet" and "dry" for example. My kids have asked me what "dry" means when obviously wine is wet. How could it be "dry"? How do you describe that? Again, it's like "red" to someone who has never seen color. There are no words to convey it. 3
pogi Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Most states have a religious exemption rule for communion, which can be traced back to prohibition, so no, you do not have to be of legal age for communion. I've heard there are a few states that don't have the exemption, but I can't imagine them prosecuting a child and a priest for communion. Also, I primarily attend a traditional Latin Mass, where only the priest partakes of the wine. Communion in Catholicism gives great blessings. It not only renews covenants (the LDS terms), but it also forgives sins and unites us with God and our fellow communicates. It is the greatest and highest blessing of Catholic ritual. Thanks, that is interesting. When(what age) do people generally start taking communion in the Catholic Church? Is it left up to the individual? When communion is such a rich blessing, why does only the priest partake in Latin Mass? Is this done in proxy for the congregation? And why are not all Masses performed the same? What covenants are renewed with communion? Sorry for the many questions, just trying to learn a little about my Catholic friends. Edited June 6, 2017 by pogi
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 10 hours ago, Calm said: Our Sacrament does the same, being a renewal of our baptismal covenant. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/34594/34594_000_014_02-covenants.pdf Can't be shown as images, but lists among other things "come into the fold of God" and "the Lord covenants...to forgive my sins". https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/baptism?lang=eng "When you were baptized, you entered into a covenant with God...You renew this covenant each time you partake of the sacrament (see 20:77, 79)." Not to be picky, but we have to do our part to repent. Taking sacrament is not a substitute for repentance, and setting our wrongs right. No physical act will forgive our sins. i am not sure this is what MiserereNobis is saying...I might have to research this later. Anyone feel free to hop in - mfb?
MiserereNobis Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 3 hours ago, pogi said: Thanks, that is interesting. When(what age) do people generally start taking communion in the Catholic Church? Is it left up to the individual? When communion is such a rich blessing, why does only the priest partake in Latin Mass? Is this done in proxy for the congregation? What covenants are renewed with communion? Sorry for the many questions, just trying to learn a little about my Catholic friends. First communion (preceded by first confession) cannot occur before the age of reason, which is 7. In the traditional Latin Mass, the priest is the only one who partakes of the wine. Everyone partakes of the bread. Since both the bread and wine contain the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, only receiving the bread is in no way whatsoever inferior to partaking of bread and wine together. Receiving Holy Communion means that we are part of the community of Christians, the Body of Christ. Therefore we promise/covenant to be good Christians, following God's commandments and the rules of the Catholic Church. 1
MiserereNobis Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: Not to be picky, but we have to do our part to repent. Taking sacrament is not a substitute for repentance, and setting our wrongs right. No physical act will forgive our sins. i am not sure this is what MiserereNobis is saying...I might have to research this later. Anyone feel free to hop in - mfb? You're absolutely right, the act of receiving communion in and of itself does not forgive sins. Here is a succinct explanation: Quote This Holy Communion, if we are rightly disposed, produces an increase in sanctifying grace - the ability to take in the vision of God in the life to come - plus a special claim to actual graces as needed, forgiveness of venial sin for which one is repentant, help to keep from mortal sin, and an increase in the virtue of love. But dispositions are needed, for even though the Eucharist contains the very Author of all grace, it does not operate like magic: we must do what we can. The author here mentions venial and mortal sins. Mortal sins are sins that lead to spiritual death and if one were to die with mortal sin, one would end up in hell. Venial sins are sins that, while offensive to God, do not cut us off from God's grace. A death with venial sin would lead to purgatory. As the quote says, receiving communion forgives one of venial sins, if one is repentant. Edited June 6, 2017 by MiserereNobis 1
halconero Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: Not to be picky, but we have to do our part to repent. Taking sacrament is not a substitute for repentance, and setting our wrongs right. No physical act will forgive our sins. i am not sure this is what MiserereNobis is saying...I might have to research this later. Anyone feel free to hop in - mfb? Yup. Same requirements as baptism. The individual requesting baptism must demonstrate before the Church that they have faith in Christ and are in a penitent state. Atoning grace aids the individual in their faith and repentance, while the sacrament might be said to be the "answer of a clean conscience from God," as is baptism. That answer or a cleared conscience is conveyed through the Holy Ghost with whom our relationship is established via covenant. The sacramental ordinances performed by priesthood authority both describe and establish the necessary state of repentance prior sealing the answer of a clear conscience to the petitioners. The penitent during the prayer should be in a state where they're memorializing the body and blood of Christ, witnessing unto God their willingness to receive Christ's name, and the desire to keep the commandments. I think those are all extremely good indicators of repentance. 1
halconero Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: First communion (preceded by first confession) cannot occur before the age of reason, which is 7. In the traditional Latin Mass, the priest is the only one who partakes of the wine. Everyone partakes of the bread. Since both the bread and wine contain the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, only receiving the bread is in no way whatsoever inferior to partaking of bread and wine together. Receiving Holy Communion means that we are part of the community of Christians, the Body of Christ. Therefore we promise/covenant to be good Christians, following God's commandments and the rules of the Catholic Church. Out of curiosity, what's the justification for only the priest partaking of the wine? Not trying to be antagonistic at all, I'm genuinely curious.
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 14 hours ago, Calm said: Our Sacrament does the same, being a renewal of our baptismal covenant. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/34594/34594_000_014_02-covenants.pdf Can't be shown as images, but lists among other things "come into the fold of God" and "the Lord covenants...to forgive my sins". I like it framed this way. That the sacrament reminds us of our Savior's promise/covenant to forgive our sins, and the actual process that He went through to enable Him to complete that promise. So, it is our weekly reminder of our need to repent. I strive always to take the sacrament in a state of repentance. All the physical stuff... any adoration of the bread is misplaced imho.
RevTestament Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 43 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: You're absolutely right, the act of receiving communion in and of itself does not forgive sins. Here is a succinct explanation: The author here mentions venial and mortal sins. Mortal sins are sins that lead to spiritual death and if one were to die with mortal sin, one would end up in hell. Venial sins are sins that, while offensive to God, do not cut us off from God's grace. A death with venial sin would lead to purgatory. As the quote says, receiving communion forgives one of venial sins, if one is repentant. Ok. Thank you for your explanation. Of course LDS do not believe in Purgatory. I would categorize that the same as hell or spirit prison. Not all go there. Some go to paradise to await resurrection like the thief on the crosses with Yeshua. I don't view Hell as necessarily permanent either, so in that sense it is like the Catholic notion of purgatory. At the last resurrection those spirits in hell will be resurrected and receive final judgment. This is revealed in Revelation. Those who still are not repentant I believe will be sent back to Hell, but these are few imho. Most will repent given the grace manifested to them. LDS scriptures indicate only the sons of perdition will suffer the second death. Most of the people at this last resurrection will probably go to the telestial kingdom.
ksfisher Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, halconero said: Out of curiosity, what's the justification for only the priest partaking of the wine? Not trying to be antagonistic at all, I'm genuinely curious. I believe there's an answer to that question on the first page.
Calm Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: Not to be picky, but we have to do our part to repent. Taking sacrament is not a substitute for repentance, and setting our wrongs right. No physical act will forgive our sins. i am not sure this is what MiserereNobis is saying...I might have to research this later. Anyone feel free to hop in - mfb? No, it is important to be picky when the point of the discussion is understanding, imo. I don't disagree, though I would say taking the Sacrament is part of repentance for baptized members.
Calm Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, halconero said: Out of curiosity, what's the justification for only the priest partaking of the wine? Not trying to be antagonistic at all, I'm genuinely curious. See here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69074-bread-and-water-in-the-lds-sacrament/?do=findComment&comment=1209725446
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