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Bread and Water in the LDS Sacrament


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Hi friends,

I wanted to start a discussion of the LDS sacrament.  Why is water used instead of wine?  Is this connected to the Word of Wisdom?  If so, was wine used prior to the Word of Wisdom?  Have other liquids been used?  Is there some sort of requirement about what can or cannot be used?  In Catholicism, there are specific rules on the wine (it has to be from grapes, it can't have anything added to it, it must have alcohol, etc).  The reasoning in Catholicism is that we must do what Christ did in the Last Supper.

I have the same question with the bread.  Is there a certain type of bread that must be used?  Again, Catholicism has rules on this, too, for the same reasons as wine.  It must be made from wheat flour and water (no leavening).

What happens to the leftover water and wine?

Has LDS sacrament changed over the years?

Finally, feel free to share your personal experiences with receiving sacrament.  In Catholicism, it is the pinnacle of Mass as it is the literal reenactment of Christ's atonement.  For me, it shows the infinite love of God.  The transcendent God becomes immanent, and He choses for His immanence such basic elements as bread and wine, just like when He chose to incarnate into a lowly carpenter's family.  And then, when I receive communion, He comes into me and becomes a part of me.  It is beautiful and humbling.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi friends,

I wanted to start a discussion of the LDS sacrament.  Why is water used instead of wine?  Is this connected to the Word of Wisdom?  If so, was wine used prior to the Word of Wisdom?  Have other liquids been used?  Is there some sort of requirement about what can or cannot be used?  In Catholicism, there are specific rules on the wine (it has to be from grapes, it can't have anything added to it, it must have alcohol, etc).  The reasoning in Catholicism is that we must do what Christ did in the Last Supper.

I have the same question with the bread.  Is there a certain type of bread that must be used?  Again, Catholicism has rules on this, too, for the same reasons as wine.  It must be made from wheat flour and water (no leavening).

What happens to the leftover water and wine?

Has LDS sacrament changed over the years?

Finally, feel free to share your personal experiences with receiving sacrament.  In Catholicism, it is the pinnacle of Mass as it is the literal reenactment of Christ's atonement.  For me, it shows the infinite love of God.  The transcendent God becomes immanent, and He choses for His immanence such basic elements as bread and wine, just like when He chose to incarnate into a lowly carpenter's family.  And then, when I receive communion, He comes into me and becomes a part of me.  It is beautiful and humbling.


 Why is water used instead of wine?

  • D&C 27:2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
    3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;
    4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

Is this connected to the Word of Wisdom?  If so, was wine used prior to the Word of Wisdom?  Have other liquids been used?  Is there some sort of requirement about what can or cannot be used? Is there a certain type of bread that must be used?
No.  Yes.  Yes.  See D&C 27:2 above.

What happens to the leftover water and wine?
It is discarded.  At various points in Church history I believe it was passed until all was consumed but for the most part excess is just discarded.

Has LDS sacrament changed over the years?
Yes, repeatedly.  And it will likely be adjusted again at some point.

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13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 27:2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

Interesting.  Has anyone had the LDS sacrament with something other than water or bread?  Is there some sort of rule that you have to use water and bread on Sunday despite this scripture?

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57 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

When the Romans pierced the heart of Jesus blood and water came out. So on Theological grounds the LDS are fine. As a functional matter it doesn't matter to us what is used.

 

Because of this, the priest adds a little bit of water to the wine during Mass.

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9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting.  Has anyone had the LDS sacrament with something other than water or bread?  Is there some sort of rule that you have to use water and bread on Sunday despite this scripture?

I have heard of fruit juice being used when water or wine are not good options.
Water I think was chosen because D&C 27 specifies that Mormons should only use wine of their own making, and the word of wisdom makes running a winery kind of taboo.

I don't think the Word of Wisdom and water for the sacrament are directly connected, but I think the choice to use primarily water even though both water and wine are allowed does have a WoW connection.

What is funny is when a particularly naïve member of the Church claims that the wine Christ drank was just non-alcoholic grape juice.  Always makes me chuckle.

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If Jesus can turn water into wine. I'm sure he can turn wine into water. ;) I don't have a problem with Catholics believing whatever they want. We LDS really are pretty flexible when it comes to that. We don't have strict rules about what is used. IE; During WW2 some LDS soldiers used water(Because water is what is in canteen's) and "C"  ration crackers for the bread.

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I can imagine wine in our little Sacrament cups with little ones spilling, even adults spilling on themselves. Oh the stains. I don't go to enough churches not of my faith. Do they serve the wine like that, or in one large cup for all to receive. Then there is the problem with germs or contracting colds etc.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

..........................

I wanted to start a discussion of the LDS sacrament.  Why is water used instead of wine?  Is this connected to the Word of Wisdom?  If so, was wine used prior to the Word of Wisdom?  Have other liquids been used?  Is there some sort of requirement about what can or cannot be used?  In Catholicism, there are specific rules on the wine (it has to be from grapes, it can't have anything added to it, it must have alcohol, etc).  The reasoning in Catholicism is that we must do what Christ did in the Last Supper.

I have the same question with the bread.  Is there a certain type of bread that must be used?  Again, Catholicism has rules on this, too, for the same reasons as wine.  It must be made from wheat flour and water (no leavening).

As in the Book of Mormon, during the 19th century wine was used in the LDS Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, but was always seen as an emblem of the blood of Christ, rather than the actual blood.  The tradition in early Christianity was wine and unleavened bread as part of the Jewish Passover practice, and the Last Supper was a Passover Seder event.  Jews themselves have always allowed substitution when wine and unleavened bread are not available for Passover (as in Nazi death camps, and other limiting circumstances).

The Latin sacramentum is the equivalent of Hebrew zakar "remember, swear an oath," as when Roman soldiers se sacramento obstringere “bound themselves with an oath (to the emperor)” (Pliny the Younger, Letters, 10:96-97).  Thus, George Mendenhall sees the Eucharist or Communion as a loyalty-oath, including symbolic oath-taking, in which the follower of Jesus takes an oath of loyalty to Him and swears to put on Christ or embody Christ in his own life (Ancient Israel’s Faith and History [Westminster John Knox, 2001],226-229).  According to Solomon Zeitlin, the word Eucharist comes from the Jewish practice of "giving thanks to God on the first night of Passover for their redemption, over unleavened bread and a cup of wine" (JQR, 28/4 [April 1948]).  In early Christian practice this became a memorial (Hebrew zikaron) and reactualization of both Exodus and Lord's Supper, in which the Aramaic blessing was den bisri "this is my body," and den idmi "this is my blood," as Jesus himself had said.

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

...........................................................

Finally, feel free to share your personal experiences with receiving sacrament.  In Catholicism, it is the pinnacle of Mass as it is the literal reenactment of Christ's atonement.  For me, it shows the infinite love of God.  The transcendent God becomes immanent, and He choses for His immanence such basic elements as bread and wine, just like when He chose to incarnate into a lowly carpenter's family.  And then, when I receive communion, He comes into me and becomes a part of me.  It is beautiful and humbling.

The set LDS liturgy of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a prayer to the Father which sanctifies the emblems, calls upon us to remember Jesus, to take his name upon us, and to obey his commandments, that we may always have the Holy Spirit to be with us.  Technically, only baptized members are to take the emblems, but anyone is free to take them -- including young children and non-members.

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20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I can imagine wine in our little Sacrament cups with little ones spilling, even adults spilling on themselves. Oh the stains. I don't go to enough churches not of my faith. Do they serve the wine like that, or in one large cup for all to receive. Then there is the problem with germs or contracting colds etc.

In the traditional Latin Mass, only the priest drinks the wine.  People receiving communion only receive the bread, which is in a ciborium and put on the tongue of the recipient by the priest.  There is a paten underneath to catch any crumbs that may fall.  Here's a picture:

Communion.jpg

In the non-traditional Mass, people may also receive wine if they want (it is not required).  The wine is in a communal cup like a chalice that everyone drinks from.  The cup is wiped with a cloth after each person drinks.  The priest then completely drinks any remaining wine.

Here's a picture of receiving wine at the new Mass:

Receiving-Holy-Communion.jpg

Edited by MiserereNobis
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55 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting.  Has anyone had the LDS sacrament with something other than water or bread?  Is there some sort of rule that you have to use water and bread on Sunday despite this scripture?

My husband has reported using pop one time as a missionary or when traveling with a youth group in Mexico (can't remember which) when they forgot to bring boiled water.  On camping trips, they used crackers since bread doesn't keep and can't be stuffed into backpacks.

And it is not unknown for the young men to eat the leftover bread, especially on fast days from what I have heard from my husband.  The leftover bread is not seen as part of the ritual or requiring any special treatment.

Edited by Calm
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3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the traditional Latin Mass, only the priest drinks the wine.  People receiving communion only receive the bread, which is in a ciborium and put on the tongue of the recipient by the priest.  There is a paten underneath to catch any crumbs that may fall.  Here's a picture:

Communion.jpg

In the non-traditional Mass, people may also receive wine if they want (it is not required).  The wine is in a communal cup like a chalice that everyone drinks from.  The cup is wiped with a cloth after each person drinks.  The priest then completely drinks any remaining wine.

Forgot about the wiping afterwards, thanks. I do remember going to a Catholic funeral for my brother in law's mother. Whoever wanted could come up and drink the wine. It was a beautiful service BTW. And my niece's Catholic wedding!

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4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the traditional Latin Mass, only the priest drinks the wine.  People receiving communion only receive the bread, which is in a ciborium and put on the tongue of the recipient by the priest.  There is a paten underneath to catch any crumbs that may fall.  Here's a picture:

 

In the non-traditional Mass, people may also receive wine if they want (it is not required).  The wine is in a communal cup like a chalice that everyone drinks from.  The cup is wiped with a cloth after each person drinks.  The priest then completely drinks any remaining wine.

What is the reason behind only the priests drinking the wine?

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5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the traditional Latin Mass, only the priest drinks the wine.  People receiving communion only receive the bread, which is in a ciborium and put on the tongue of the recipient by the priest.  There is a paten underneath to catch any crumbs that may fall.  Here's a picture:

Communion.jpg

In the non-traditional Mass, people may also receive wine if they want (it is not required).  The wine is in a communal cup like a chalice that everyone drinks from.  The cup is wiped with a cloth after each person drinks.  The priest then completely drinks any remaining wine.

Why does the Catholic communion treat the bread and the wine differently?  

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Just now, Tacenda said:

Whoever wanted could come up and drink the wine

Actually, only Catholics who are not in a state of mortal sin are allowed to receive communion.  Non-Catholics, even non-Catholic Christians, are not allowed.  This has to do with one of the symbols of communion -- that we are a community in the Body of Christ.

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3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Actually, only Catholics who are not in a state of mortal sin are allowed to receive communion.  Non-Catholics, even non-Catholic Christians, are not allowed.  This has to do with one of the symbols of communion -- that we are a community in the Body of Christ.

Okay, I forgot, it was only a wafer or thin slice of bread,come to think of it. Sorry for my poor memory of this occasion. ETA: I'm sure the Priest inviting those to partake, assumed that non members would know not to.

Edited by Tacenda
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2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What is the reason behind only the priests drinking the wine?

 

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Why does the Catholic communion treat the bread and the wine differently?  

Catholic doctrine holds that the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ are fully present in both the bread and wine, so one can receive all the blessings of full communion by only receiving bread (Catholics use different terms and verbs in describing this, but I don't want to confuse you).  There has been a few condemned heresies (utraquism and the Nestorians) that claimed that you needed both for salvation. One reason why the traditional Mass only offers the bread for communion is to put into the ritual the doctrine that the bread is sufficient and that it does hold the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

And it is not unknown for the young men to eat the leftover bread, especially on fast days from what I have heard from my husband.  The leftover bread is not seen as part of the ritual or requiring any special treatment.

That bothers me for some reason.  I kind of wish we'd eat until it is consumed.  After all, it is all blessed and sanctified.  That doesn't change because the cloth is placed back over it.

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16 minutes ago, Calm said:

My husband has reported using pop one time as a missionary or when traveling with a youth group in Mexico (can't remember which) when they forgot to bring boiled water.  On camping trips, they used crackers since bread doesn't keep and can't be stuffed into backpacks.

I went on an overnight backpack with some monks and they had a small portable Mass kit they used.  It had everything you needed.  I think Catholic chaplains use something similar in the military when they are in combat zones.  There are a lot of famous instances in WWII of priests using jeeps as altars.  Here's a picture:

capa_robert_3010_1992_454767_displaysize

 

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That bothers me for some reason.  I kind of wish we'd eat until it is consumed.  After all, it is all blessed and sanctified.  That doesn't change because the cloth is placed back over it.

In Catholicism, since we believe that the Real Presence of Christ is in the bread, any leftover bread is placed in the tabernacle in the altar.

It is the reason why Catholics genuflect (go down on one knee and usually cross themselves) towards the altar when they enter the church, sit down or stand up at the pews, and pass in front of the altar.  We believe that the Christ is there in the tabernacle, so we show our reverence towards Him.  Every knee shall bow.

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