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Bread and Water in the LDS Sacrament


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15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

Catholic doctrine holds that the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ are fully present in both the bread and wine, so one can receive all the blessings of full communion by only receiving bread (Catholics use different terms and verbs in describing this, but I don't want to confuse you).  There has been a few condemned heresies (utraquism and the Nestorians) that claimed that you needed both for salvation. One reason why the traditional Mass only offers the bread for communion is to put into the ritual the doctrine that the bread is sufficient and that it does hold the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Thanks, very interesting.  Where does the idea that the bread alone is enough come from?  And if the bread alone is enough, why did Christ implement both bread and wine at the last supper?  

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting.  Has anyone had the LDS sacrament with something other than water or bread?  Is there some sort of rule that you have to use water and bread on Sunday despite this scripture?

No rule at all.  It's just the cultural norm.  If for some reason that's not available (remote area / poor circumstances / etc), using something else is just fine.  

Unlike in Catholicism, LDS don't view the power of the sacrament to be somehow invested in the physical food items themselves- it's just bread and water.  Like literally tap water and basic store bought bread.    Even when the bread and water is being blessed and actively being passed around, it's still just bread and water.  Any leftovers go to the drain/trash bin, along with the disposable cups the water in passed in.

 The transformative aspect of the Sacrament is not in the items, but in the covenants *we* make with *Christ*.  I respect our Catholic friends in their traditions of honoring the physical elements of the sacrament, but personally I find such focus on item to be distracting from Christ- the bread's not special, it's Christ's that special!  

 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

 I respect our Catholic friends in their traditions of honoring the physical elements of the sacrament, but personally I find such focus on item to be distracting from Christ- the bread's not special, it's Christ's that special!  

 

But the bread becomes Christ and that is why it is special for Catholics.

It seems to me to be a belief one must not only hold, but be immersed in so as to feel (and not just know) why this is so important...but many religious beliefs are that way.

Edited by Calm
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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Symbolically, not literally as is the Catholic belief.  It is still a symbol.

I am saying that for Catholics it is not distracting from Christ even if for LDS such attention would be.

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4 hours ago, ksfisher said:
5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

What happens to the leftover water and wine?

 

After sacrament meeting any unused broken bread in thrown away and the leftover water goes down the drain.

Actually the  hungry teenagers cleaning up after wards usually eat the left over bread; especially if its fast Sunday ;-) 

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8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As in the Book of Mormon, during the 19th century wine was used in the LDS Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, but was always seen as an emblem of the blood of Christ, rather than the actual blood.  The tradition in early Christianity was wine and unleavened bread as part of the Jewish Passover practice, and the Last Supper was a Passover Seder event.  Jews themselves have always allowed substitution when wine and unleavened bread are not available for Passover (as in Nazi death camps, and other limiting circumstances).

The Latin sacramentum is the equivalent of Hebrew zakar "remember, swear an oath," as when Roman soldiers se sacramento obstringere “bound themselves with an oath (to the emperor)” (Pliny the Younger, Letters, 10:96-97).  Thus, George Mendenhall sees the Eucharist or Communion as a loyalty-oath, including symbolic oath-taking, in which the follower of Jesus takes an oath of loyalty to Him and swears to put on Christ or embody Christ in his own life (Ancient Israel’s Faith and History [Westminster John Knox, 2001],226-229).  According to Solomon Zeitlin, the word Eucharist comes from the Jewish practice of "giving thanks to God on the first night of Passover for their redemption, over unleavened bread and a cup of wine" (JQR, 28/4 [April 1948]).  In early Christian practice this became a memorial (Hebrew zikaron) and reactualization of both Exodus and Lord's Supper, in which the Aramaic blessing was den bisri "this is my body," and den idmi "this is my blood," as Jesus himself had said.

The set LDS liturgy of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a prayer to the Father which sanctifies the emblems, calls upon us to remember Jesus, to take his name upon us, and to obey his commandments, that we may always have the Holy Spirit to be with us.  Technically, only baptized members are to take the emblems, but anyone is free to take them -- including young children and non-members.

I've always advised non-members not to take the sacrament unless they gain a testimony of the Church.

3 Nephi 18:

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

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8 hours ago, Calm said:

My husband has reported using pop one time as a missionary or when traveling with a youth group in Mexico (can't remember which) when they forgot to bring boiled water.  On camping trips, they used crackers since bread doesn't keep and can't be stuffed into backpacks.

.....................................................

Mexican and central American water sources were notoriously dangerous to drink (mainly amoebic dysentary), so that mission presidents authorized missionaries to drink well-known soda pop (Coca Cola was always safe), so using that or Agua Mineral de Tehuacan for Sacrament was probably O.K.  When Jesus came to the Nephites, it is unlikely that they had wheat bread, but rather something made from local grain -- such as corn tortillas or amaranth.

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9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting.  Has anyone had the LDS sacrament with something other than water or bread?  Is there some sort of rule that you have to use water and bread on Sunday despite this scripture?

In the mission field at one evening Sacrament meeting we had no bread for the Sacrament. 

We did find some oil, and some un-popped popcorn...

It may have been a little distracting but it was used.

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1 minute ago, Flyonthewall said:

In the mission field at one evening Sacrament meeting we had no bread for the Sacrament. 

We did find some oil, and some un-popped popcorn...

It may have been a little distracting but it was used.

Popcorn? Interesting! How far away from bread is still acceptable? Does it have to be some sort of grain at least? Could you use nuts, for example?

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3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Popcorn? Interesting! How far away from bread is still acceptable? Does it have to be some sort of grain at least? Could you use nuts, for example?

I'm sure bread made of almond flour would be acceptable. It's not the physicality that is important. What is important is that we eat and drink in remembrance of His sacrifice and atonement for us.

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Just now, RevTestament said:

I'm sure bread made of almond flour would be acceptable. It's not the physicality that is important. What is important is that we eat and drink in remembrance of His sacrifice and atonement for us.

So anything that is eaten would work?  Vegetables?  Or meat?

I'm really not criticizing, I'm just trying to find the line of acceptable.

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1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

So anything that is eaten would work?  Vegetables?  Or meat?

I'm really not criticizing, I'm just trying to find the line of acceptable.

  • D&C 27:2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
    3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;
    4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.
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Just now, RevTestament said:
  • D&C 27:2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
    3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;
    4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

Ok, I saw this quote before, I guess for whatever reason I just didn't take it literally as to mean you can eat anything.  Thanks for clarifying!

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1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ok, I saw this quote before, I guess for whatever reason I just didn't take it literally as to mean you can eat anything.  Thanks for clarifying!

As a practical matter, I think Bishops are going to expect bread to be passed, but if it is not available, yes, apparently just about anything will suffice. I remember someone in my first ward used to supply home-made wheat bread... I have always missed that!

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21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Popcorn? Interesting! How far away from bread is still acceptable? Does it have to be some sort of grain at least? Could you use nuts, for example?

Bread is the default, but as pointed out, it matters not what is used.  The Sacramental prayer focuses us on what is important.

Obviously if bread is available nothing else will be used.

Edited by Flyonthewall
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In Catholicism, a sacrament (what LDS call an ordinance) requires a valid matter, which is the physical thing used.  We've been talking about that with the eucharist: for Catholics, the matter must be unleavened wheat bread and pure grape wine.  For LDS the matter doesn't matter (heh).  Is this true for other ordinances?  For example, in blessings of the sick, if olive oil isn't available, could another oil be used? Or another liquid that's not an oil?

Are there other matters in LDS ordinances besides eucharist, blessing the sick (oil), and baptism (water)?

Edited by MiserereNobis
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12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi friends,

I wanted to start a discussion of the LDS sacrament.  Why is water used instead of wine?  Is this connected to the Word of Wisdom?  If so, was wine used prior to the Word of Wisdom?  Have other liquids been used?  Is there some sort of requirement about what can or cannot be used?  In Catholicism, there are specific rules on the wine (it has to be from grapes, it can't have anything added to it, it must have alcohol, etc).  The reasoning in Catholicism is that we must do what Christ did in the Last Supper.

I have the same question with the bread.  Is there a certain type of bread that must be used?  Again, Catholicism has rules on this, too, for the same reasons as wine.  It must be made from wheat flour and water (no leavening).

What happens to the leftover water and wine?

Has LDS sacrament changed over the years?

Finally, feel free to share your personal experiences with receiving sacrament.  In Catholicism, it is the pinnacle of Mass as it is the literal reenactment of Christ's atonement.  For me, it shows the infinite love of God.  The transcendent God becomes immanent, and He choses for His immanence such basic elements as bread and wine, just like when He chose to incarnate into a lowly carpenter's family.  And then, when I receive communion, He comes into me and becomes a part of me.  It is beautiful and humbling.

We are allowed to drink wine for the Sacrament, as long as it wine of "our own make". Early in Church history, the Saints would be poisoned, or have things tampered with. But, to a very large degree it is a Word of Wisdom issue as it relates to wine. 

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33 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In Catholicism, a sacrament (what LDS call an ordinance) requires a valid matter, which is the physical thing used.  We've been talking about that with the eucharist: for Catholics, the matter must be unleavened wheat bread and pure grape wine.  For LDS the matter doesn't matter (heh).  Is this true for other ordinances?  For example, in blessings of the sick, if olive oil isn't available, could another oil be used? Or another liquid that's not an oil?

Are there other matters in LDS ordinances besides eucharist, blessing the sick (oil), and baptism (water)?

The Church is strict about ordinances being performed correctly, and unless there is an exception in D&C or other scripture, ordinances which require a particular matter cannot be changed. Baptism does not require living(stream) water, but must be performed as a complete submersion. I gave my wife a blessing the other day, but used no oil - it was a blessing of guidance rather than a blessing of healing. There is a temple ordinance which uses oil as well - the initiatories. The "matter" for the endowment ordinance is the robe, apron and cap. As far as I know all three must be used. The apostles perform a washing of the feet. Right now I can't think of any others... oh, sacrifice requires own blood.

Edited by RevTestament
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37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In Catholicism, a sacrament (what LDS call an ordinance) requires a valid matter, which is the physical thing used.  We've been talking about that with the eucharist: for Catholics, the matter must be unleavened wheat bread and pure grape wine.  For LDS the matter doesn't matter (heh).  Is this true for other ordinances?  For example, in blessings of the sick, if olive oil isn't available, could another oil be used? Or another liquid that's not an oil?

Are there other matters in LDS ordinances besides eucharist, blessing the sick (oil), and baptism (water)?

Consecrated olive oil is expected to be used when administering to the sick. It's a two part ordinance where the sick person is anointed with oil and then a second person seals the anointing and give a blessing of healing. If no olive oil is available a person can still give a blessing of healing using the priesthood and the combined faith of those close to the person.

Anointing with Oil

The anointing is done by one Melchizedek Priesthood holder. He:
1. Puts a drop of consecrated oil on the person’s head.
2. Places his hands lightly on the person’s head and calls the person by his or her full name.
3. States that he is acting by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
4. States that he is anointing with oil that has been consecrated for anointing and blessing the sick and afflicted.
5. Closes in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sealing the Anointing
Normally, two or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders place their hands lightly on the head of the person. The one who seals the anointing:
1. Calls the person by his or her full name.
2. States that he is sealing the anointing by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
3. Gives words of blessing as the Spirit directs.
4. Closes in the name of Jesus Christ.

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On 6/2/2017 at 8:38 PM, MiserereNobis said:

In Catholicism, a sacrament (what LDS call an ordinance) requires a valid matter, which is the physical thing used.  We've been talking about that with the eucharist: for Catholics, the matter must be unleavened wheat bread and pure grape wine.  For LDS the matter doesn't matter (heh).  Is this true for other ordinances?  For example, in blessings of the sick, if olive oil isn't available, could another oil be used? Or another liquid that's not an oil?

Are there other matters in LDS ordinances besides eucharist, blessing the sick (oil), and baptism (water)?

Unlike in Catholicism, we don't believe the sacramental bread and water upon consumption actually turn into the flesh and blood of Christ. We're not cannibals. And neither was Christ advocating such.

That Catholic belief is based off the false interpretation of scripture. Many turned away from the Lord during his ministry because they couldn't understand the symbolism of what he was teaching, comparing the manna He gave to the Children of Israel to consuming His own flesh:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

The sacrament is symbolic. Not a literal consumption of Christ's flesh and blood.

Poster removed

This is why the Lord revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith that:

".. it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins."

It's unfortunate that Catholicism is so ritualistic that the sacrament cannot be administered only with specific items. Not that it has the Priesthood Authority to do so anyway. A point completely missed.

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1 hour ago, PeterPear said:

We're not cannibals.

This representation of the Catholic belief of transubstantiation is similar to representing LDS exaltation by saying "Mormons are going to get their own planet and have celestial sex for eternity."

1 hour ago, PeterPear said:

Not that it has the Priesthood Authority to do so anyway. A point completely missed.

You're just looking to pick a fight, ain't ya ;)

 

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