L. Whitney Clayton Warns BYU grads to Disconnect from proselyting efforts of those who have lost their faith.

[Johnnie Cake]

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a senior president of the LDS Church's Quorums of the Seventy, was the school's featured commencement speaker. 

In his commencement address he offered the following council 

"The faithless often promote themselves as the wise, who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete," Clayton said. "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

All I can say is Wow...unbelievable...I am so disappointed in his message...was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

The poster Freedom challenged me to find messages of fear.  Despite having been given at BYU graduation 2016, it is a message of fear of "others" and a lack of confidence in the strength of the LDS message to prevail in the market place of ideas.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[carbon dioxide]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a senior president of the LDS Church's Quorums of the Seventy, was the school's featured commencement speaker. 

In his commencement address he offered the following council 

"The faithless often promote themselves as the wise, who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete," Clayton said. "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

All I can say is Wow...unbelievable...I am so disappointed in his message...was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

 

He is simply advising against listening to sources of negativity.  I don't see it to be a fear message.  Misery loves company and there is a specific group of people who lose faith who seek others to follow them.  He is no referring to all people who lose faith.  Just those who lose faith and want to bring others along with them.

[Nevo]

Here's an old thread on the subject:

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Nevo

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

Here's an old thread on the subject:

 

I guess Johnny ran out of complaints so he had to dredge up this one

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a senior president of the LDS Church's Quorums of the Seventy, was the school's featured commencement speaker. 

In his commencement address he offered the following council 

"The faithless often promote themselves as the wise, who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete," Clayton said. "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

All I can say is Wow...unbelievable...I am so disappointed in his message...was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

 

We know people who have left the Church, but actively try to convince others to join them. For example, they have tried to convince their siblings to leave, have tried to get access to younger relatives to persuade them their parents are deceiving them, and have made concerted efforts to turn even casual conversations into angry diatribes about the Church. As Elder Clayton advises, we have disconnected "from listening to the[ir] proselytizing efforts." It's not good for anyone. So in our interactions, when they occur, we have agreed that discussion about the Church is off-limits. Unfortunately, we didn't do it immediately and completely. Several years of grief could have been avoided if we had.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I guess Johnny ran out of complaints so he had to dredge up this one

You mean this is an old story -- from last year?

He really is grasping for things to complain about! And apparently endeavoring to mislead folks into thinking he has something new.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You mean this is an old story -- from last year?

He really is grasping for things to complain about!

 

Well, at least we haven't had another "adieu in the Book of Mormon" appear for a while.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

Where is the fear? After a few such confrontations, the fear is that even an innocent remark or gesture will set off yet another attack. Oh....that is an attack coming from the former member. That gets tedious. Makes one not want to have any interaction at all. If ground rules are established that put such things out of bounds....setting boundaries....the relationship can probably be saved.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, at least we haven't had another "adieu in the Book of Mormon" appear for a while.

[Calm]

I guess it is all a matter of emphasis:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/stay-connected-to-god-elder-l-whitney-clayton-tells-byu-graduates?lang=eng

"When we love God, we become truly connected to Him. … As we keep the commandments, we show our love for God."

"Elder Clayton then spoke of several connections of “real value” to graduates, starting with their relationship with their parents, grandparents, and family.

“We hope that you will thank them, especially by the way you live,” he said. “Your lifelong faithfulness and devotion to the Savior and His restored Church will be the highest demonstration of gratitude that you can offer to your parents.”

Elder Clayton told graduates that no degree or academic distinction will be more valuable than their connection to their spouse. “Your happiness and growth in this life, and your opportunities for eternity hereafter, are fundamentally linked to this most ‘immediate’ of all connections,” he said and then promised couples if they would become devoted to heaven, their connection “will be the flower and fruit of your lives.”

Some students have also become parents as they have pursued their education, he noted. “Your children are connected to you and you to them in ways parents have to experience to understand,” he said, adding that the graduates’ education has “expanded your capacity to offer your children an opportunity to thrive in this life.”

Elder Clayton also discussed the connection graduates now have with their alma mater. “I believe you now have a duty to stay connected to BYU,” he said. “The alumni association's motto is ‘Connected for Good.’ Your education enables you to help BYU go forward in good ways.”"

-----

It seems he spent significant time speaking about staying connected to people while there was a segment where he counseled "disconnecting" from listening to messages of discouragement and faithlessness, from avoid efforts to lead astray---turn off radios, TV, or computers when you happen to wander into the offered proselyting efforts.   Not to avoid disbelievers themselves unless they insist they be allowed to proselytize to someone desiring to remain faithful or continued to try and tempt them into breaking promises they had made to themselves, their parents, spouses, and God.  They have no more right to do that than an LDS missionary has the right to force himself into a nonLDS Church and attempt to teach the first discussion from the pulpit.

"Elder Clayton also warned listeners of the perils of taking “online tours in the territory of the faithless.”

He said, “We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith and instead reconnect promptly with the Holy Spirit.”

The connection that matters most, Elder Clayton said, is the one shared with God, and individuals connect with God by making and keeping covenants. “These covenantal connections to Him become the guideposts for our lives. They help us measure where we are on the strait and narrow path. They lead us to the fruit of the Atonement—forgiveness, peace of conscience, and love.”

As such, individuals should seek after everything that promotes the keeping of covenants. “Our connection with heaven is the most valuable blessing we have and the most important one we can secure. It strengthens every other worthy connection in our lives.”

I don't see anything in the quote provided that suggests to disconnect from any and all disbelievers or even those who were once believers and now have lost their faith.  It is relatively easy to agree not to discuss conversations that lead to contention.  Otoh, there are actually the missionaries of disbelief, including a number of online antifaith websites no one is harmed through a refusal to visit them while too much indulgence in them may lead to doubt, distrust, and rejection of God's knowledge.  I don't see any obligation on the side of the believer to listen just as there is no obligation for any disbeliever to listen to missionaries of belief, no matter how eager either are to help others challenge their POVs and conventional wisdoms.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

One thing this thread has done for me is that it has caused me to go back and revisit the thread on the same subject last year. There were some very good posts on that thread, and, as a result, some folks have gotten some residual rep points from me for posts they made over a year ago.

Before we go over too much plowed ground here, I recommend going back and reading through at least a portion of that previous thread.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

...was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

 

Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had in mind something along the lines of your fearmongering misrepresentation of Elder Clayton's comments in your title of this thread.

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a senior president of the LDS Church's Quorums of the Seventy, was the school's featured commencement speaker. 

In his commencement address he offered the following council 

"The faithless often promote themselves as the wise, who can rescue the rest of us from our naivete," Clayton said. "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

All I can say is Wow...unbelievable...I am so disappointed in his message...was he who President Uchtdorf had in mind when he counciled members of the church to avoid messages of fear in the last GC?

 

NOT "Disconnect from Former Members".

BIG difference.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

This reminds me of when I was a missionary in North Carolina. There was an evangelical minister in High Point that told his members to stay away from us because we had some success among his congregation.  I guess boundary maintenance goes both ways and it is understandable that Elder Clayton would say what he did.

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

He is simply advising against listening to sources of negativity.  I don't see it to be a fear message.  Misery loves company and there is a specific group of people who lose faith who seek others to follow them.  He is no referring to all people who lose faith.  Just those who lose faith and want to bring others along with them.

Except he is branding all messages that might be construed as not LDS-faith-promoting as negative. This is not a healthy stereotype.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

NOT "Disconnect from Former Members".

BIG difference.

It's not that big, IMO. Members can feel like they would be infected with the doubt germ. Remember President Packer's talk about that?

Yesterday my husband stopped and talked to the father of one of his Primary kids. It's the one that spoke up about Joseph Smith looking into the hat to translate, during the lesson about the BoM translation process that doesn't even mention it.

My husband mentioned how he liked that this guy taught her how it happened. And this guy said, it was the reason he resigned, along with polygamy issues. He said he feels bad because of how his parents reacted now. And maybe he shouldn't have jumped the gun. My husband had no idea he resigned. 

I don't think this guy doubted from anti sources, but I don't know that. But he thanked my husband for stopping by. Like he really appreciated someone speaking about a controversial issue out loud. I understand that sentiment, ever since I mentioned my doubt about Joseph Smith I'm treated like a doubt germ. Not once has my bishop or stake president or RS president inquired about my inactivity and if I needed help with my issues, nor have I been contacted for anything else, our home teachers rarely come, the silence is deafening. Maybe if they had it wouldn't have gotten out of control.

Maybe a lot of anti's wouldn't be so upset if someone would have acknowledged the problems in the church. And perhaps could have held on. There is segregation in what Elder Clayton has said because those listening to his words can easily misconstrue the message to mean to completely shut out the doubter instead of acknowledging that what they say has some truth. 

And I'm sorry to have brought my personal sentiments in, I don't want to derail this thread.

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

NOT "Disconnect from Former Members".

BIG difference.

I still see a whole lot of "us vs them" in the comment.

Truth is truth, and a disciple should not be branding ideas so rigidly imo.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Except he is branding all messages that might be construed as not LDS-faith-promoting as negative. This is not a healthy stereotype.

I agree it's not healthy in terms of getting along with those who have questions or with those who are disaffected.  However, boundary maintenance like this does promote the health of the "faithful" group.  Constant reinforcement from "faithful" sources and avoidance of "non-faithful" sources keeps the group more cohesive.  Notwithstanding, it also says something about Elder Clayton's view of the strength of his message.

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's not that big, IMO. Members can feel like they would be infected with the doubt germ. Remember President Packer's talk about that?

Yesterday my husband stopped and talked to the father of one of his Primary kids. It's the one that spoke up about Joseph Smith looking into the hat to translate, during the lesson about the BoM translation process that doesn't even mention it.

My husband mentioned how he liked that this guy taught her how it happened. And this guy said, it was the reason he resigned, along with polygamy issues. He said he feels bad because of how his parents reacted now. And maybe he shouldn't have jumped the gun. My husband had no idea he resigned. 

I don't think this guy doubted from anti sources, but I don't know that. But he thanked my husband for stopping by. Like he really appreciated someone speaking about a controversial issue out loud. I understand that sentiment, ever since I mentioned my doubt about Joseph Smith I'm treated like a doubt germ. Not once has my bishop or stake president or RS president inquired about my inactivity and if I needed help with my issues, nor have I been contacted for anything else, our home teachers rarely come, the silence is deafening. Maybe if they had it wouldn't have gotten out of control.

Maybe a lot of anti's wouldn't be so upset if someone would have acknowledged the problems in the church. And perhaps could have held on. There is segregation in what Elder Clayton has said because those listening to his words can easily misconstrue the message to mean to completely shut out the doubter instead of acknowledging that what they say has some truth. 

And I'm sorry to have brought my personal sentiments in, I don't want to derail this thread.

We've talked about this before. You told us that you told at least your bishop you don't want to talk about it.  You should give your bishop some credit that he is treating you like an adult and following your wishes.  If you wish for something different then you need to let him know. 

 

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I still see a whole lot of "us vs them" in the comment.

Truth is truth, and a disciple should not be branding ideas so rigidly imo.

I see it different.  

Occasionally someone will discover I have diabetes. Then they go wild with this product which will cure me. I let them know that I am not interested in their product, but I remain friends with them. 

The idea really isn't anymore than that.  

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

I see it different.  

Occasionally someone will discover I have diabetes. Then they go wild with this product which will cure me. I let them know that I am not interested in their product, but I remain friends with them. 

The idea really isn't anymore than that.  

I  have  a friend who grew up in a baptist church that is fairly anti-mormon in it's leanings.  We're still friends because we don't proselytize each other.  

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I  have  a friend who grew up in a baptist church that is fairly anti-mormon in it's leanings.  We're still friends because we don't proselytize each other.  

 

How do you square this with "every member a missionary" or the duty to seek after the lost sheep?  This has always bothered me because friendships can definitely be ruined by proselytizing or in trying to rescue someone who seemingly goes astray.  Also, as Elder Clayton alludes to in his speech, there is a danger that the "missionary" or "faithful member" will be the one who gets converted or loses "faith" when connections are formed.

[Johnnie Cake]

I live in a mixed faith marriage, fortunately through love and mutual respect my marriage has survived.  Messages like the one offered by Elder Whitney are destabilizing and create unnecessary wedges in families like mine.  Unsurprisingly he seems more interested in driving wedges and dividing family, friends and associates than in bringing people of differing beliefs together. 

Surely if he felt LDS truth claims could survive being challenged he wouldn't instruct these graduates to disengage but to engage those who have lost faith.  This board exists in conflict with Whitneys advise.   It's a message of fear, divisiveness and a call to driving unessessary wedges between families.

I found the message to be based in fear and a disappointing message to pass on to the next generation who more than any other will face an ever increasing population of members who have lost belief in Mormonism.  Shunning and disengaging is a message of fear not only in the "othering" of those who do not share a common set of beliefs but lack in confidence in the strength of his own beliefs.

I speak remembering the numerous families that have ended in divorce when one spouse has lost belief in Mormonism ...this is not the kind of message a leader in the LDS church should be sending. Shame on him

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I guess Johnny ran out of complaints so he had to dredge up this one

He does seem to operate on somewhat of a revolving door basis.

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I  have  a friend who grew up in a baptist church that is fairly anti-mormon in it's leanings.  We're still friends because we don't proselytize each other.  

 

My husband and my daughter don't talk politics while living in the same house.

It is very possible to be on opposite sides of beliefs and still connect in many other ways besides the one that each thinks the other is massively wrong on.  They just spent several hours in the car on a road trip yesterday seeking out each other's company.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm