L. Whitney Clayton Warns BYU grads to Disconnect from proselyting efforts of those who have lost their faith.

[Benjamin Seeker]

Loss of faith is seen as a kind of disease, so if a given person is contagious enough, then leadership tries to isolate them from others who are vulnerable, particularly when they are metaphorically coughing or bleeding or whatever. I believe leadership still imagines that these people will be ministered to by their local leaders of they haven't asked for no contact or had their names removed, but in a lot of cases that's probably not happening.

I feel these comments are pretty unnecessary. Members could be advised to avoid negative spins on church history, policy, etc., but even then the church has been slowly validating various criticisms (big kids should be trusted to parse information, opinion, or spin for themselves, or at least they could be taught to do so.). Just mentioning disaffected individuals obviously creates room for the interpretation of shunning or related behaviors even if completely unintended.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I live in a mixed faith marriage, fortunately through love and mutual respect my marriage has survived.  Messages like the one offered by Elder Whitney are destabilizing and create unnecessary wedges in families like mine.  Unsurprisingly he seems more interested in driving wedges and dividing family, friends and associates than in bringing people of differing beliefs together. 

Surely if he felt LDS truth claims could survive being challenged he wouldn't instruct these graduates to disengage but to engage those who have lost faith.  This board exists in conflict with Whitneys advise.   It's a message of fear, divisiveness and a call to driving unessessary wedges between families.

I found the message to be based in fear and a disappointing message to pass on to the next generation who more than any other will face an ever increasing population of members who have lost belief in Mormonism.  Shunning and disengaging is a message of fear not only in the "othering" of those who do not share a common set of beliefs but lack in confidence in the strength of his own beliefs.

I speak remembering the numerous families that have ended in divorce when one spouse has lost belief in Mormonism ...this is not the kind of message a leader in the LDS church should be sending. Shame on him

Interpretation is everything.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

We've talked about this before. You told us that you told at least your bishop you don't want to talk about it.  You should give your bishop some credit that he is treating you like an adult and following your wishes.  If you wish for something different then you need to let him know. 

 

He is my stake president now, this interchange happened in 2012. And I was raw and didn't want to go sit in his office. That was 5 years ago and he hasn't said a word about it in all those years. 

I'm that germ. But I don't want to make this about me, even though I keep doing that in my posts. This subject is why.

 

[CA Steve]

The criticism about this thread being old news is right on because obviously no one has new has signed up for this board in the last year, all current members have read the old thread, everyone has already said all there was to be said in the other thread and every lurker has already read the previous thread about this subject.

 

I mean really, Johnny should know better.

[Johnnie Cake]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

He is simply advising against listening to sources of negativity.  I don't see it to be a fear message.  Misery loves company and there is a specific group of people who lose faith who seek others to follow them.  He is no referring to all people who lose faith.  Just those who lose faith and want to bring others along with them.

Of course you don't since it isn't being directed towards you...  oft times those who use divisive xenophobic messages don't see them as messages of fear either. But to those who are the point of these messages...trust me, we see the fear and hate undergirding the message

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I found the message to be based in fear and a disappointing message to pass on to the next generation who more than any other will face an ever increasing population on members who have lost belief in Mormonism.  Shunning and disengaging is a message of fear not only in the "othering" of those who do not share a common set of beliefs but lack in confidence in the strength of his own beliefs.

I speak remembering the numerous families that have ended in divorce when one spouse has lost belief in Mormonism ...this is not the kind of message a leader in the LDS church should be sending. Shame on him

There is something to be said for living in the world but not being of the world. Living in the world with a non-believer just potentially creates additional stresses which would otherwise not be there - disagreement over raising children etc. I do dislike shunning tho.

However, I disagree in your conclusion that there will be an ever increasing population of ex-Mos - this is said without the benefit of prophecy.

[BlueDreams]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He is my stake president now, this interchange happened in 2012. And I was raw and didn't want to go sit in his office. That was 5 years ago and he hasn't said a word about it in all those years. 

I'm that germ. But I don't want to make this about me, even though I keep doing that in my posts. This subject is why.

 

Or he's extremely respectful. I'm nosy as heck...my curiosity is hard to bind down. But even I would stop if someone strongly stated they did not want to talk about something. And I would wait for them to bring it back up.

 

with luv, 

bd 

Edited April 30, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The criticism about this thread being old news is right on because obviously no one has new has signed up for this board in the last year, all current members have read the old thread, everyone has already said all there was to be said in the other thread and every lurker has already read the previous thread about this subject.

 

I mean really, Johnny should know better.

I agree...I should have read every previous thread prior to posting.  Btw. I went though that old post, I was out of the country when it had its run and hadn't participated in it...and until today was unaware that it had been previously discussed.  I should have known better...after all...all I do is dig up old rubbish to throw at the church, right? shame on me for seeking mutual respect and love of all of those who disagree with my worldview

[Johnnie Cake]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You mean this is an old story -- from last year?

He really is grasping for things to complain about! And apparently endeavoring to mislead folks into thinking he has something new.

 

Scott really?  You assume too much, but thanks for thinking that I would/ could be aware of every topic ever discussed on this board. I guess I should be thanking you for your back handed compliment. Oh and thanks again for always thinking the worst of me...at least you're consistent.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Tacenda]

I went back to the other thread Scott referred to on the same subject in 2016. I read over each of the comments. I even made a few that I'd forgotten. In one of my comments I mentioned having listened to the talk...didn't remember that.

In my comment in 2016 I c/p that there was more context matter that affects the listener such as myself and Johnnie or those that have become disillusioned. But I understand that his talk wasn't for those like myself or Johnnie but for the faithful. But of those faithful, will it affect their interactions with family & friends etc. like ourselves?

Here is the talk in full: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SAIEm1izgNEEltljWkpZLA7DJa1T7hqsI2XspQFxDtw/edit Here is the portion that may be misconstrued to believe we are apostates. And I probably don't need to post the quotes of what LDS leaders have said in the past about apostates or so-called apostates.

"A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. They started sometimes with online tours of the territory of the faithless. This indiscretion is often accompanied by failing to earnestly study The Book of Mormon everyday, and by the companion problem of gradually becoming lax in keeping other commandments. This sometimes leads to listening and then harkening to those who mock the church, its leaders, or its history. The faithless often promote themselves as the wise who can rescue the rest of us from our naievity. One does not need to listen to assertive apostates for long to see the parallels between them and the Corihors and Nehors and Sharoms of The Book of Mormon. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit. The adversary sees spiritual apathy and half-hearted obedience as opportunities to encircle us with his chains and bind us, and he hopes to destroy us. We escape his chains as we voluntarily chose to bind ourselves instead to God. In what at first may seem ironic, our choosing to bind or connect with Heaven frees and empowers us to become all that we possibly can in this life and the next through the atonement of Jesus Christ."

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 shame on me for seeking mutual respect and love of all of those who disagree with my worldview

Misrepresenting what others say who disagree with your worldview is neither a sign of respect nor love

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Of course you don't since it isn't being directed towards you...  oft times those who use divisive xenophobic messages don't see them as messages of fear either. But to those who are the point of these messages...trust me, we see the fear and hate undergirding the message

The insufferable who seek to tear down the faith of others seem to have the delusion that avoiding their tedious and endless conversations constitutes xenophobia and not just trying to avoid boredom and their oblivious awkwardness. This is why I take ex members complaints about being shunned by their families with a shaker full of salt. If I spend enough time around them I usually find out why someone would want to stop talking to them.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my comment in 2016 I c/p that there was more context matter that affects the listener such as myself and Johnnie or those that have become disillusioned. But I understand that his talk wasn't for those like myself or Johnnie but for the faithful. But of those faithful, will it affect their interactions with family & friends etc. like ourselves?...

" We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit."

From what I have seen in interactions between family members where there are believers and disbelievers who either or both work on the other attempting to proselytize them to their own positions, relationships are improved by stepping away from the subject and allowing both to choose their own path without constant criticism from the other.

If it is fair to ask thisof  the believer, to stop intruding where they are not wanted, why is it not fair to ask the same of the disbeliever?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

How do you square this with "every member a missionary" or the duty to seek after the lost sheep?  This has always bothered me because friendships can definitely be ruined by proselytizing or in trying to rescue someone who seemingly goes astray.  Also, as Elder Clayton alludes to in his speech, there is a danger that the "missionary" or "faithful member" will be the one who gets converted or loses "faith" when connections are formed.

The best missionary work is to be an example of Christlike love or if one is not a Christian in belief, to be an example of a moral, compassionate, and respectful individual.  If the "lost sheep" attempts to proselytize, then it is easy enough to ask them to desist.  If they do not respect one's wishes and continues with intrusive behaviour, then perhaps it is time to put some distance, but hopefully the majority of people are respectful of others' beliefs and boundaries, and understand a request not to speak of faith or lack there of for what it is and do not either inflate or ignore it.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Tacenda, JoCake, and others who see Elder Clayton's advice as creating divisions, do you also see advice from disbelievers on how to get believing family and friends to stop trying to proselytize disbelievers back into the fold as preaching from the viewpoint of fear and potentially destroying relationships?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

This reminds me of when I was a missionary in North Carolina. There was an evangelical minister in High Point that told his members to stay away from us because we had some success among his congregation.  I guess boundary maintenance goes both ways and it is understandable that Elder Clayton would say what he did.

What was his advice for his congregation regarding those who may have left his congregation in anger and were seeking to drag others out with them?

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

From what I have seen in interactions between family members where there are believers and disbelievers who either or both work on the other attempting to proselytize them to their own positions, relationships are improved by stepping away from the subject and allowing both to choose their own path without constant criticism from the other.

If it is fair to ask thisof  the believer, to stop intruding where they are not wanted, why is it not fair to ask the same of the disbeliever?

If you read the quote fully, did you read how he blended those that let go of the iron rod then become apostates? That's how I read it. But do see how what he says can be helpful as far as trying to keep the spirit, it's just that he needed to reiterate some things afterward. That would have made all the difference. I know he's human and all though. It just cuts deep. Those of us that don't proselyte but keep to ourselves for years. It hurts.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Tacenda

[Pete Ahlstrom]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tacenda, JoCake, and others who see Elder Clayton's advice as creating divisions, do you also see advice from disbelievers on how to get believing family and friends to stop trying to proselytize disbelievers back into the fold as preaching from the viewpoint of fear and potentially destroying relationships?

I think that if religion is put first and family and friends second, there is bound to be division and hurt feelings.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What was his advice for his congregation regarding those who may have left his congregation in anger and were seeking to drag others out with them?

I don't know.  The minister didn't touch on that subject as far as I know.  Maybe he did after I was transferred out some 3 months later.  However, I was unaware of any new members of our church that started doing as the missionaries always asked, e.g., get their family and friends to hear the discussions.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

The best missionary work is to be an example of Christlike love or if one is not a Christian in belief, to be an example of a moral, compassionate, and respectful individual.  If the "lost sheep" attempts to proselytize, then it is easy enough to ask them to desist.  If they do not respect one's wishes and continues with intrusive behaviour, then perhaps it is time to put some distance, but hopefully the majority of people are respectful of others' beliefs and boundaries, and understand a request not to speak of faith or lack there of for what it is and do not either inflate or ignore it.

Yes, example is the best missionary work.  But if you don't open your mouth, do the converts simply appear?  If you don't try, does the disaffected have a better chance of returning?  Anyway, I agree with you that the best medicine for harmony among member and former is to avoid the subject.

[Johnnie Cake]

What I would have preferred he said:

young people, you are embarking today into a great world with many different challenge.  You will meet people with many different philosophies and beliefs...some of these are our own, who for whatever reasons no longer accept gospel truths. Love them, respect them, engage with them and seek them out but most of all do not fear them, as Christ taught these are our brothers and sisters and like you are children of our loving father heaven. 

Instead he chose to drive a wedge,  an order to disengage. Very disappointing.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Pete Ahlstrom]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

What I would have preferred he said:

young people, you are embarking today into a great world with many different challenge.  You will meet people with many different philosophies and beliefs...some of these are our own, who for whatever reasons no longer accept gospel truths. Love them, respect them, engage with them and seek them out but most of all do not fear them, as Christ taught these are our brothers and sisters and like you are children of our loving father heaven. 

Is that like "love the sinner and not the sin?"

[Johnnie Cake]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

NOT "Disconnect from Former Members".

BIG difference.

I made this post late last night...I've corrected my title clearly he was referring to anyone both member or former member, who has lost their faith.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

I'm a big believer in building bridges of mutual respect and understanding.  Elder Whitneys message fails to do this. Disengagement from those with opinions that differ from our own is a recipe for isolation, insularity and places obstacles between believers and non in achieving mutual respect and understanding.  

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Tacenda, JoCake, and others who see Elder Clayton's advice as creating divisions, do you also see advice from disbelievers on how to get believing family and friends to stop trying to proselytize disbelievers back into the fold as preaching from the viewpoint of fear and potentially destroying relationships?

I don't see any organized effort by "those who have lost faith" to proselytize anyone.  however the internet has given rise to tools that do level the playing field some. An influential blogger or podcaster can now have access to an audience that only a newspaper or broadcaster had access before...but all must still place their ideas into the same market place where their respective ideas are scrutinized, tested, challenged and either rise or fall on their own merits.  

Im guessing Elder Whitney doesn't like that this playing field has become more accommodating to alternative points of view.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Johnnie Cake