Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: no surprise there...you've already summed me up and made your conclusions long before I even present my case...its called predudice
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 11 hours ago, Calm said: Truth claims sure, their loved ones maybe not so much. Or do you believe that pressure tactics never work? Yes I know of several individuals pressured to join the church...so I'm guessing that pressure techniques do work
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Ehhh. Just so much feel-good simplistic progressive blather. Chances are better that this is a load of horse puckey. We wish that we had hidden two sons behind the skirts of our religion a little better. We blithely trusted that the families of some of their non-LDS friends were just good folks who weren't Mormons. At least on the surface, they were. They introduced one of them to the wonders of pornography, alcohol, marijuana, and a wide variety of mind-opening drugs. He shared these marvels and a big dose of internet anti-Mormon literature with his brother. By the time we figured out what was going on it was too late. Now over 20 [EDIT.... 10 years...it just seems like 20] years later and a lot of grief and money, he wanders all over North America on freight trains, bums food at Walmart entrances or dives in restaurant dumpsters, has been in multiple emergency rooms on the brink of death with MERSA, and has a rather permanent relationship with vodka. The other sits in a haze of marijuana smoke and beer and hasn't a clue what to do with his life. Both have withdrawn their Church membership and blame it for all their problems. It's not been fun or easy. In fact sometimes it's been terrifying, but we still hope and pray that some day someone will come into their lives who can help them. In the mean time, it's hard not to think about the awful things that could happen. In fact, just a few seconds of thinking about this can put one in a very dark place. I once asked an LDS friend with a sadly similar story who lost two sons to heroin overdoses if it were better now that they were gone to the other side. I'll let you guess what her answer was. Do she and we wish we could have hidden them behind our skirts? You decide. Yeah, chances are really good that article is a load of horse puckey. I'm disappointed that a message of inclusiveness somehow was seen as offensive to you...
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: My conviction that the earth is (roughly) a sphere can withstand examination but it is a waste of time and patience to allow every flat-earther to examine the evidence through interviews with me, spend time listening to their drivel, etc. If a flat-earther sought aggressively to challenge me as many anti-mormons I have known do I would give them the same treatment. I would avoid interaction. It is not a question of the strength of my convictions. I just want to retain my sanity by avoiding their continuing inane harangues. Using a strawman to prove your strawman...classic
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: There is no doubt that the LDS message can hold its own in the free marketplace of ideas, but it is doubtful that any and every BYU student or grad is actually capable of carrying on a debate with any apostate. This is not so much a message of fear as it is good counsel to avoid the flimflam man. A known liar may portray himself as simply being such a nice, honest guy who wants to help, all the while inveigling himself into our trust, baiting the hook and then delivering the coup de grâce. council is a group (noun) counsel is an action (verb) Robert, you are making all kinds of disparaging assumptions towards those who have lost belief in the LDS church. While I understand why you need to refer to these people as flimflams and liars, I would suggest that critic's come from the same honest place that you approach your defense of your beliefs
bluebell Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yes I know of several individuals pressured to join the church...so I'm guessing that pressure techniques do work So you agree with Cal's whole point. Edited May 1, 2017 by bluebell 1
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: It's interesting that drinking alcohol is one of the first things many of our group members' loved ones start doing. I believe it has two purposes...self-medication and sticking a thumb in the Church/family eye. They express pride in flaunting it, say how good it makes them feel, and in some cases challenge family members to join with them in having a drink just to see how it feels and to see for themselves it is harmless and how stupid the rules are. Many times marijuana is the point of departure, with the same excuses, pride, pleadings, and invitations. It's so sad. Really? Self medication and sticking a thumb in the church and family? How about its just a normal enjoyable accompaniment to a lovely meal humanity has enjoyed for millennia. When you resort to extreme ulterior motivations and exaggerated stereotypes that don't reflect reality to press your argument you've lost the argument.
Tacenda Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) The way I look at it is, the anti's or disaffected want people to know the warts about the church because they want their family, friends..?, to be on the same page. They don't want to feel estranged from their loved ones any longer. They blame the church for that division. The church has a hold on it's members...the gospel and church are number one. I recently heard this in a talk so I know it's out there, maybe not in those exact words, but in the sentiment. Sure the church stresses how important family is, but what about when the member leaves the fold? I believe it's talks like Elder Clayton's that spark the anti's and disaffected. I know the church isn't a bad cult, but it does have some attributes that are a bit cultish. When a church speaks for God etc. It can become a deal breaker, or a decision maker if the member leaves. They are going against God, in the minds of members perhaps. I hope on both sides there can be some empathy or compassion, because the hurt is strong. Have you ever heard of the scenario where you have an unruly child maybe in school or a primary class? And that we should love them even more, because it's usually because they feel unloved? I feel like these anti's etc, just feel so unloved possibly. Edited May 1, 2017 by Tacenda
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: See the link in Okrahomer's post two seps above yours. A couple of wacky exmos with ani-LDS pass along cards and Drinking 101 classes to help former Mormons learn how to hold their liquor. Anyone look like that here? Don't think so. Again...ridiculous over blown stereotypes that are not reflected in reality. I know it helps you justify your abstinence...but it might be helpful base your choice to avoid alcohol in a more grounded realistic reasoning. Such as God has commanded it and so I chose to follow gods commandments. That I can respect.
Johnnie Cake Posted May 1, 2017 Author Posted May 1, 2017 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: So you agree with Cal's whole point. Cal's or Calm's? I was using magniloquent absurdity. The use of pressure as a tool to convince is rarely if ever successful or sustainable.
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