Bernard Gui Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----. I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback. What do we really know about God the Father? Edited April 23, 2017 by Bernard Gui 3
Popular Post Duncan Posted April 23, 2017 Popular Post Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) He likes having kids! Edited April 25, 2017 by Duncan 7
LittleNipper Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 God never had children. God does say in Genesis that man was created in God's image Let US (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) create man in OUR image (Body, Soul, Spirit --- triune).
Jeanne Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----. I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback. What do we really know about God the Father? Just wanted to say that I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during this discussion, Love that you are having these kinds of discussions..you're brave and thoughtful man!! By thoughtful..I mean you are really thinking about it without using the standard replys. Personally, for me, it is easier to KNOW Jesus than to know the Father. 1
Ahab Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: What do we really know about God the Father? That he is a lot like Jesus, except that everyone is a child of our Father in heaven but it takes a special covenant to also be a child of Jesus. So our Father has more children than Jesus.
mfbukowski Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----. I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback. What do we really know about God the Father? I agree with you but you argue with a fundy Mormon about their stories and you WILL get pushback. It's all they have.
mfbukowski Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just wanted to say that I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during this discussion, Love that you are having these kinds of discussions..you're brave and thoughtful man!! By thoughtful..I mean you are really thinking about it without using the standard replys. Personally, for me, it is easier to KNOW Jesus than to know the Father. It is said that the savior does nothing but what the Father has done- he emulates the Father perfectly For all practical purposes they are one. 1
LittleNipper Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: That he is a lot like Jesus, except that everyone is a child of our Father in heaven but it takes a special covenant to also be a child of Jesus. So our Father has more children than Jesus. Sorry, but how could that be true when Jesus Himself said John 8:44-45 44 Your father is the devil. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars. 45 Because I speak the truth, you don’t believe Me. Clearly everyone is not a child of God if their father is the devil...
Teancum Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----. I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback. What do we really know about God the Father? Well if we don't know much about God the Eternal Father we have a problem. At least the early LDS prophets thought so: The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God” (Teachings, 345) He also said this in the King Follett Discourse: Quote My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine. If any man is authorized to take away my life because he thinks and says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, we should be justified in taking away the life of every false teacher, and where would be the end of blood? And who would not be the sufferer? I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. It seems Joseph had a lot to say about God the Father. Has the LDS Church abandoned such thing? As dumb young missionary about 38 years ago I taught we knew about God and that we knew more than any other Christian religion. But it seems we have forgotten all this. Edited April 23, 2017 by Teancum 3
mfbukowski Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Sorry, but how could that be true when Jesus Himself said John 8:44-45 44 Your father is the devil. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars. 45 Because I speak the truth, you don’t believe Me. Clearly everyone is not a child of God if their father is the devil... Yikes. Cascading category errors one on top of another..... Jo Mama Edited April 23, 2017 by mfbukowski 3
bluebell Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Sorry, but how could that be true when Jesus Himself said John 8:44-45 44 Your father is the devil. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars. 45 Because I speak the truth, you don’t believe Me. Clearly everyone is not a child of God if their father is the devil... Literally we are all spirit children of our Father in Heaven, but who our spiritual Father is depends on who we "listeth to obey." The people Christ was speaking to followed Satan, so he was their father. If we follow Christ He is our father. 4
Teancum Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Sorry, but how could that be true when Jesus Himself said John 8:44-45 44 Your father is the devil. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars. 45 Because I speak the truth, you don’t believe Me. Clearly everyone is not a child of God if their father is the devil... Well then God really screwed up when he created a world full of the devil's children. Dogma is such an ugly thing no matter where it comes from. 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 23, 2017 Author Posted April 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: He likes having kids! CFR.
Bernard Gui Posted April 23, 2017 Author Posted April 23, 2017 46 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just wanted to say that I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during this discussion, Love that you are having these kinds of discussions..you're brave and thoughtful man!! By thoughtful..I mean you are really thinking about it without using the standard replys. Personally, for me, it is easier to KNOW Jesus than to know the Father. Well, heaven forbid I might be thoughtful in the usual sense! 2
Rain Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well is we don't know much about God the Eternal Father we have a problem. At least the early LDS prophets thought so: The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God” (Teachings, 345) He also said this in the King Follett Discourse: It seems Joseph had a lot to say about God the Father. Has the LDS Church abandoned such thing? As dumb young missionary about 38 years ago I taught we knew about God and that we knew more than any other Christian religion. But it seems we have forgotten all this. Knowing the character of God is knowing just a small amount of Him. An extremely important part, but still there is lots more to know about Him. What his home looks like. If he eats. What his favorite food is if he eats. How tall he is. If he sits when he does his job. If he is built like a farmer or body builder or something else. I know those are very simplistic things and don't really matter, but it really goes to show how little we know about him. ------ It occurred to me last week how little we know about him when I was trying to recall what we know about Heavenly Mother. I feel close to him, but I don't know much about him. That would be some of the Mysteries that would be very interesting to me. 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2017 Author Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well if we don't know much about God the Eternal Father we have a problem. At least the early LDS prophets thought so: The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God” (Teachings, 345) He also said this in the King Follett Discourse: It seems Joseph had a lot to say about God the Father. Has the LDS Church abandoned such thing? As dumb young missionary about 38 years ago I taught we knew about God and that we knew more than any other Christian religion. But it seems we have forgotten all this. Well I didn't intend this discussion to be anti-Mormon, but let's see if you can answer without going in that direction. What is an exalted man and how does he keep the worlds in their orbits? What does it mean to live in everlasting burnings? Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2017 Author Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rain said: Knowing the character of God is knowing just a small amount of Him. An extremely important part, but still there is lots more to know about Him. What his home looks like. If he eats. What his favorite food is if he eats. How tall he is. If he sits when he does his job. If he is built like a farmer or body builder or something else. I know those are very simplistic things and don't really matter, but it really goes to show how little we know about him. ------ It occurred to me last week how little we know about him when I was trying to recall what we know about Heavenly Mother. I feel close to him, but I don't know much about him. That would be some of the Mysteries that would be very interesting to me. Well, we are on the same page! One brother said God has a sense of humor. I asked if there is a scripture that shows where Jesus or God laughed. The response was that God has joy. I asked if joy is humor. Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Jeanne Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Well, heaven forbid I might be thoughtful in the usual sense! Of course!!! It is just that you are so unusual. 1
Teancum Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Well I didn't intend this discussion to be ant-Mormon, but let's see if you can answer without going in that direction. What is an exalted man and how does he keep the worlds in their orbits? What does it mean to live in everlasting burnings? No I will pass. Not worth talking about something really nobody knows much about. You said we don't know much about God the Father. I showed you where Joseph taught that is was the first principles of the gospel to know about God and his attributes and he didn't ever teach that we don't know much about God. If you label that as anti Mormon then discussion with you about your own topic, which contradicts the founding LDS Prophet, well its simply a waste of time.
Duncan Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 Just now, Bernard Gui said: CFR. I had Turkey and potatoes for dinner, not Chicken Fried Rice 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2017 Author Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Teancum said: No I will pass. Not worth talking about something really nobody knows much about. You said we don't know much about God the Father. I showed you where Joseph taught that is was the first principles of the gospel to know about God and his attributes and he didn't ever teach that we don't know much about God. If you label that as anti Mormon then discussion with you about your own topic, which contradicts the founding LDS Prophet, well its simply a waste of time. Well, no, that's not correct. You took the opportunity to turn an interesting and sincere question into yet another dig at the Prophet, the Church, and me. If that's all you want to do, then by all means take your leave. Or you can contribute something of value. There are about 1000 words in the quote you provided. What exactly did you learn about God in all those words? Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Literally we are all spirit children of our Father in Heaven, but who our spiritual Father is depends on who we "listeth to obey." The people Christ was speaking to followed Satan, so he was their father. If we follow Christ He is our father. I just can't muster being nice with these people. It's a real flaw.
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Well then God really screwed up when he created a world full of the devil's children. Dogma is such an ugly thing no matter where it comes from. Bizzaro logic is the ugly thing here, along with fundamentalism. Those two will get some people every time. 1
Bobbieaware Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----. I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback. What do we really know about God the Father? Why all the mystery and claims of inscrutability? And why controversy during a priesthood lesson when such contentiousness is totally unnecessary? The scriptures reveal a great deal about person, nature and character of Jesus Christ; and it was the Savior himself who said if we know him (Christ) we also know the Father. And it's the Apostle Paul who said the Father is in Christ revealing himself (the Father) to the world. So all one has to do to know the Father is to read the scriptures, especially the four gospels in the Bible and the account of the Savior's post-resurrection ministry in the Book of Mormon, and one can learn a great deal about the person, nature and character of God the Father through learning about Jesus Christ, for he is in every way one with the Father. And if all this is not enough, try studying and ingesting the King Follett discourse. 1
strappinglad Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 John 14 gives the statement about God the Father . I think it is a bit Confucius - like and has been interpreted in several ways ,including JS in the KFD. I vaguely remember a story about the early Brethren in Joseph's time wanting to see the Father and some saying the Father passed through the room at the time. Likely apocryphal or mis - remembering.
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