snowflake Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Thank you. That is a great list of things we know about God the Father. Why do you think He is in another galaxy? Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning?
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? You're going to get different answers from different LDS, even conflicting answers sometimes, which is why you should rely on the answers you get from our Father in heaven through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Darren10 Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: We know where you live and sleep. I know where you hang out. http://vampirewebsite.net/ 1
Darren10 Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 http://www.vampires.com/how-to-vampire-proof-your-home/
JLHPROF Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 25 minutes ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? God is outside of OUR current space-time. I am not convinced he lives outside of any linear timeline.
JLHPROF Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: What do you know about the Father? Do you believe Jesus still inhabits his resurrected body? In my opinion, and just because nobody has uttered the dastardly phrase yet, Adam-God tells us everything we need to know about the Father at present.
clarkgoble Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? Yes, although it's not clear what they mean by that. For a long time it was just assuming infinite expanse which was a common if heretical view during the renaissance. (It was one of the reasons Giodano Bruno was burned at the stake) But of course that doesn't work in terms of the physics. But you can get something similar either with a multiverse + branes as in string theory or just the idea of bubble universes that's typical in most inflationary models in physics. There's no strong compelling empirical evidence for such things of course. The main problems with these views is that it means God is most likely outside our space/time but still within a space/time. There are various odd implications from that relative to foreknowledge, free will and the ontology of choices. Lots of people don't like those implications and tend to see most modern physics - especially relativity - as artifacts that don't describe the underlying reality. Blake Ostler is one example of that although you find similar views among most of those influenced by open theology. I find reconciling such views to physics to be sufficiently difficult that I tend to find them unlikely. One of the main drives for open theology is the push for there to be some ontological 'space' where people deliberate and make free choices not dependent upon anything else. The goal is libertarian agent free will which also requires that there be no truth about future states of the universe at the time ones choice is picked. That means they have to reject foreknowledge by God as well as any substantial space/time ontology since a block universe of the sort General Relativity is usually taken to imply is at odds with this libertarian free will. The main argument for it, especially from Blake Ostler's writings, is that God would be unjust to punish anyone who doesn't have this sort of freedom. Edited April 24, 2017 by clarkgoble 2
JAHS Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Other than immortality and tangibility what do we know about an exalted body of flesh and bone? It can pass through solid objects, even though it is flesh and bone as indicated when the resurrected Jesus entered a room with the doors closed. It does not have blood in the veins; it is spiritual matter. It can eat and breath, as Jesus did when He appeared to the Apostles. It can touch a mortal human as John the Baptist did when he conferred the priesthood on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. It can become a God and have eternal increase, creating a universe and spirit children to populate the planets. 1
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 32 minutes ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? In my perspective the universe is the one place where every other place is, so even if there were some space beyond what someone thinks of as our universe I would still say that is all a part of our universe. Maybe another dimension of it, but ultimately all part of the same place. So that is my perspective of all space. Time is what I think of as past, present, and future so even if it all happened at the same time, it would all still be time. So a moment when God does something, anything, before he does something else is a moment of time for God, with God not ever bein finished with all he is doing and/or will do in the future.
MiserereNobis Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: How about Stephen's vision of seeing Yeshua on the right hand of the Father? How did he see the Father? If the Father is merely an invisible Spirit, how come He warns Moses that no one can see Him and live? Is He lying that those who see Him will die? So that Moses will only see His back parts? God the Father (and the Son and the Holy Spirit) can appear in whatever form They wish, which has ample evidence in scripture and history. God must not mean it literally when He says if you see Him you will die, because then Joseph Smith wouldn't have made it past age 14 1
RevTestament Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: God the Father (and the Son and the Holy Spirit) can appear in whatever form They wish, which has ample evidence in scripture and history. God must not mean it literally when He says if you see Him you will die, because then Joseph Smith wouldn't have made it past age 14 Except that Joseph Smith called it a vision...much like Stephen's. BTW, when Paul saw our Lord, He was not physically present - others did not see Him. You will forgive me, but nowhere does scripture or anything like it tell us the Spirit can appear in whatever form He wishes. There is a scripture in which Abraham sees 3 beings he refers to as YHWH, but that is as close to your assertion you are going to get. But I personally will agree with you that the Father is not limited to a physical form, but there is no doubt He maintains one. For Jesus to be seen when He returns, He must also maintain a physical form. I believe that is the whole point of the resurrection - to show us what is possible for us. To show us our state of eternal life. As our unique brother and fellow Spirit, He has led the way. Thus, as He says Jerusalem will see Him again when it says blessed is He that has come in the name of YHWH - Behold the nail, Behold the hand - I am Life/breath, I am the Word. So at what point do you believe Yeshua will give up His body when He is called the Eternal Father? Edited April 24, 2017 by RevTestament
MiserereNobis Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, RevTestament said: You will forgive me, but nowhere does scripture or anything like it tell us the Spirit can appear in whatever form He wishes Jesus disguised Himself after His resurrection so that His closest disciples did not know it was Him. I doubt this meant that he put on different clothes and shaved His beard. The Holy Spirit was seen at His baptism in the sign of the dove. God appeared to Moses as a burning bush. God can manifest Himself however He wishes. That certainly is part of being omnipotent.
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Jesus disguised Himself after His resurrection so that His closest disciples did not know it was Him. I doubt this meant that he put on different clothes and shaved His beard. The Holy Spirit was seen at His baptism in the sign of the dove. God appeared to Moses as a burning bush. God can manifest Himself however He wishes. That certainly is part of being omnipotent. I don't blame you for not asking God to help you understand things better than you currently do. And I don't blame God for not telling you more than you currently understand. And I don't even blame various prophets of God for not giving more details and information to help people come to a better understanding of what they knew and experienced through revelation from God. I don't blame anyone really. I just wanted to make that clear.
MiserereNobis Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: I don't blame you for not asking God to help you understand things better than you currently do. Ahab, please don't be so arrogant and condescending. Thank you. +PAX+ 2
clarkgoble Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 2 hours ago, JAHS said: It can pass through solid objects, even though it is flesh and bone as indicated when the resurrected Jesus entered a room with the doors closed. It does not have blood in the veins; it is spiritual matter. It can eat and breath, as Jesus did when He appeared to the Apostles. It can touch a mortal human as John the Baptist did when he conferred the priesthood on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. It can become a God and have eternal increase, creating a universe and spirit children to populate the planets. To be pedantic we don't know the body passes through objects the way two gasses can pass through. We simply know the body can appear within closed areas. I recognize that's nitpicky, but if you think of say the difference between a ghost and a Star Trek transporter beam it makes a difference. Really we don't know much at all about resurrected bodies beyond they resemble us in some way. 2
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 21 hours ago, Rain said: Knowing the character of God is knowing just a small amount of Him. An extremely important part, but still there is lots more to know about Him. What his home looks like. If he eats. What his favorite food is if he eats. How tall he is. If he sits when he does his job. If he is built like a farmer or body builder or something else. I know those are very simplistic things and don't really matter, but it really goes to show how little we know about him. ------ It occurred to me last week how little we know about him when I was trying to recall what we know about Heavenly Mother. I feel close to him, but I don't know much about him. That would be some of the Mysteries that would be very interesting to me. Don't tell anyone you are in live with a mysterious and very powerful Man
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Ahab, please don't be so arrogant and condescending. Thank you. +PAX+ You're the one calling the other one of us arrogant and condescending. And even if I was your job would be to just forgive me, rather than point out what to you appear to be faults. Don't worry. I don't blame you for your accusations, either. I forgive you.
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 minute ago, clarkgoble said: To be pedantic we don't know the body passes through objects the way two gasses can pass through. We simply know the body can appear within closed areas. I recognize that's nitpicky, but if you think of say the difference between a ghost and a Star Trek transporter beam it makes a difference. Really we don't know much at all about resurrected bodies beyond they resemble us in some way. And then there is the flatland analogy of other dimensions 1
clarkgoble Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: In my perspective the universe is the one place where every other place is, so even if there were some space beyond what someone thinks of as our universe I would still say that is all a part of our universe. Maybe another dimension of it, but ultimately all part of the same place. So that is my perspective of all space. Time is what I think of as past, present, and future so even if it all happened at the same time, it would all still be time. So a moment when God does something, anything, before he does something else is a moment of time for God, with God not ever bein finished with all he is doing and/or will do in the future. The physics is actually a lot messier - particularly with respect to time - which is why they talk about them as separate universes. Thinking of it as an other dimension, while somewhat accurate for the Brane model in string theory, is also somewhat misleading. But realistically since there's no compelling empirical evidence for string theory we have to be pretty cautious. We're at the point where physics is most speculative so it's safest to say we don't know too much beyond General Relativity appearing true for all phenomena down to near the planck time after the big bang.
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Ahab, please don't be so arrogant and condescending. Thank you. +PAX+ Agree, but he always is. Such is life. Only Ahab know anything, and he knows all. Don't let it get to you 1
clarkgoble Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And then there is the flatland analogy of other dimensions Yeah, but it's pretty misleading for the type of extra dimensions physicists discuss which are non-Euclidean and sometimes very small. Flatland is dealing with the simplest case of orthagonal dimensions akin to the normal three Cartesian dimensions. It's a helpful first step to thinking of higher dimensions in an intuitive fashion, but the physics is far weirder. Edited April 24, 2017 by clarkgoble
mfbukowski Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Yeah, but it's pretty misleading for the type of extra dimensions physicists discuss which are non-Euclidean and sometimes very small. Flatland is dealing with the simplest case of orthagonal dimensions akin to the normal three Cartesian dimensions. It's a helpful first step to thinking of higher dimensions in an intuitive fashion, but the physics is far weirder. Yes, I know. That’s why I called it an analogy. Edited April 24, 2017 by mfbukowski
RevTestament Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? The Most High has always dealt with man within the concept of time. Even when He says "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee," he is teaching that our Savior was begotten within time rather than the Nicene concept of being begotten before all ages/worlds/time, which I believe purposefully hides the true nature of our Savior, so that we cannot become like Him. So we don't know if the Father exists outside our concept of time. "Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning?" LDS scripture teaches that spirit has no beginning and is "finer" than matter. The prevailing view of science is that the universe had a beginning, however it is difficult of conceiving that matter did not exist before then. I am no longer convinced that the universe had a beginning. I see evidence here and there that it has no known beginning. Perhaps we do not understand all the properties of light. The law of entropy seems to tell us that the universe will end. All the energy in it will eventually be spent according to the law of entropy. This suggests that the universe did indeed have a beginning. However, there is also a law of the conservation of energy, which suggests that if the universe is a closed system, it will never use all its energy, and if so, will never die.
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: Agree, but he always is. Such is life. Only Ahab know anything, and he knows all. Don't let it get to you I am so misunderstood and misrepresented. But I don't blame any of you for what you do not know or for acting like you do know when I know you really don't.
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: The physics is actually a lot messier - particularly with respect to time - which is why they talk about them as separate universes. Thinking of it as an other dimension, while somewhat accurate for the Brane model in string theory, is also somewhat misleading. But realistically since there's no compelling empirical evidence for string theory we have to be pretty cautious. We're at the point where physics is most speculative so it's safest to say we don't know too much beyond General Relativity appearing true for all phenomena down to near the planck time after the big bang. I was talking about my perceptions of time and space, and there is nothing complicated about either one, from my perspective. Space does not end somewhere, beyond which point there is no more space. There isn't even one gap with nothing in the middle because in any perceived gap there is always at least a little more space. A continuous flow of space from one place to another place, with never an end to the places. And there is always a before and an after as well as a time of the present between a before and an after. Nothing complicated about any of it, regardless of how some people seem to want it to appear to be complicated.
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