RevTestament Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: God appeared to Moses as a burning bush. Actually, that was the angel of the Lord speaking the words of the Lord. Last I checked the angel of the Lord is not part of the Trinitarian doctrine. "The Holy Spirit was seen at His baptism in the sign of the dove." Not necessarily by His own will tho. In other words we can't say if the Holy Spirit turned Himself into a dove, or Heavenly Father created that event.
JAHS Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: To be pedantic we don't know the body passes through objects the way two gasses can pass through. We simply know the body can appear within closed areas. I recognize that's nitpicky, but if you think of say the difference between a ghost and a Star Trek transporter beam it makes a difference. Really we don't know much at all about resurrected bodies beyond they resemble us in some way. Here's how the Angel Moroni did it: "After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance." (JSH 1: 43) So a conduit appeared in the light, which must have been some kind of tube or tunnel going up into heaven and Joseph saw him ascend up until he was no longer in sight. This brings up some interesting issues. Moroni did not change himself into energy or anything else; he remained a recognizable personage all the way up to heaven. So probably not a Star Trek transport beam. He went through some sort of conduit or tunnel which somehow materialized through the ceiling of the house. What was this conduit made of? How did it appear? Heaven is "up" somewhere. Some kind of energy in the form of light is used for his appearance, unless it is simply the light emanating from the glory of his body. For some reason the light had to first gather itself immediately around the being before he was able to go up to heaven. Edited April 24, 2017 by JAHS 1
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 57 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: The Holy Spirit was seen at His baptism in the sign of the dove. "The Holy Ghost is a spirit person in the form of man (D&C 130:22) and does not transform himself into a dove or any other form. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained: "The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage [a man], and is in the form of a personage [a man]. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign [symbol or representation] of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence" (TPJS, p. 276) 1
RevTestament Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: "The Holy Ghost is a spirit person in the form of man (D&C 130:22) and does not transform himself into a dove or any other form. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained: "The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage [a man], and is in the form of a personage [a man]. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign [symbol or representation] of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence" (TPJS, p. 276) "but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
Calm Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ahab said: I am so misunderstood and misrepresented. But I don't blame any of you for what you do not know or for acting like you do know when I know you really don't. I don't blame you for being totally clueless about what Misere prays about or how you appear to other people or for thinking you know so much more about others when you don't.... Actually I think I do if "blame" means I think you are responsible for your behaviours and you are choosing not to put significant effort into trying to see yourselves as others see you or seeing them as they truly are before jumping into judgment. Edited April 24, 2017 by Calm 2
Ahab Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: I don't blame you for being totally clueless about what Misere prays about or how you appear to other people or for thinking you know so much more about others when you don't.... Actually I think I do if "blame" means I think you are responsible for your behaviours and you are choosing not to put significant effort into trying to see yourselves as others see you or seeing them as they truly are before jumping into judgment. I am not clueless. I know I am often misunderstood and misrepresented by others who do not correctly understand me or what I mean when I say what I say. And I am not interested in conforming myself to your image of how you think I should be, or to any other image than the me I think I should be with our Father as the one I ultimately learn from. Not your perception of our Father, or anyone else's perception of our Father, but my perception of our Father as he reveals himself and his will to me, personally. So enough of these insults and personal judgments against me. It is not your place to put yourself as someone in a high place who is worthy to judge me. You are the same as me, no better and no worse, and any intelligence you may have that I may not have should be used to try to build me up rather than trying to tear me down. And I still don't blame any of you for not doing or not knowing any better than you do or know. In my perspective you are simply trying to do the best you know how to do without knowing how to do any better yet. Too many personal comments: poster removed.
JLHPROF Posted April 24, 2017 Posted April 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, RevTestament said: "but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." "the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." - Joseph Smith 1
Mormons Talk Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: "but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." I'm glad you quoted this. It has never made sense to me. Its used as proof that the Holy Spirit has the appearance of a man, and it then states that this man dwells in each of us (potentially within millions of people all at once). Can you help me understand how a single personage can dwell within multiple people simultaneously?
Mormons Talk Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 5 hours ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? I certainly don't represent all Mormons, but my Mormonism embraces all truth, including the scientific kind. To the best of my knowledge, science says that time as we know it began with the Big Bang.about 14 billion years ago, and that's what I go by.
RevTestament Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mormons Talk said: I'm glad you quoted this. It has never made sense to me. Its used as proof that the Holy Spirit has the appearance of a man, and it then states that this man dwells in each of us (potentially within millions of people all at once). Can you help me understand how a single personage can dwell within multiple people simultaneously? We really have not been taught much about the Holy Spirit scripturally, unless you are willing to widen your perception beyond the title. What if just like Heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit has more than one title? In fact we know He does because Yeshua also refers to Him as the Comforter. Yeshua also refers to Him as the Spirit of Truth. In D & C Yeshua also refers to himself as the Spirit of Truth. Yeshua is also called the Malek/Messenger of the Covenant. Traditionally, Malek is translated as angel. This brings up the possibility that the Holy Spirit is also referred to as an angel/messenger in the scriptures. Here are really about the only two places in the OT which use the phrase "Holy Spirit": Isaiah 63:10-11 10 But they arebelled, and bvexed his choly Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their denemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then ahe remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the bsea with the cshepherd of his dflock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within ehim? (This appears also in D&C.) Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy apresence; and take not thy bholy spirit from me. Holy is not really very descriptive. It is an English equivalent of a Hebrew word which means to set apart. Thus, when LDS are set apart in their offices, the Lord is making them "holy" or at least charging them to be holy. So He is a "Set apart Spirit." He is set apart to do a specific job. One of these happens to be to communicate to those who desire to learn of the Lord, and be their companion. The Holy Spirit is another spirit just like the rest of men. He is a brother in the gospel, but has foreordained jobs. And we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Like JHLPROF quoted, Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Spirit too will come to earth - somewhat like Jesus. He is foreordained. The only possible hint Jesus gives of this is in the gospels. He tells us that as the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit will bring truth to man. Since Jesus is also a Spirit of Truth, it seems their tasks will be similar and complimentary. John 16:13 13 Howbeit when he, the aSpirit of truth, is come, he will bguide you into all ctruth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will dshew you things to come. So the question arises is this a literal speaking as a man who will come, or just a spirit whisper received by the apostles? Again, textually, I don't believe I can prove the former. Muslims try to claim this is a prophecy of Muhammed. It is strange how they pick and choose a few scriptures and reject the rest. Anyway, the Holy Spirit is bound to follow the scriptures, and will not deny the sonship of Yeshua like Muhammed did. Can a spirit be in more than one place at a time? Apparently. Perhaps he uses yet another dimension, so this would be a simple task for Him. How about if the Holy Spirit comes to earth as a man? What then? My only conclusion is that there is yet another spirit who would be called/set apart to the job. 1
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Darren10 said: http://www.vampires.com/how-to-vampire-proof-your-home/ You don't really believe those kinds of things work, do you? Edited April 25, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 6 hours ago, snowflake said: Is the Mormon god inside our outside of our time-space universe? Am I correct in my understanding that the LDS believe matter and space is eternal? or no beginning? I believe he is inside. Not sure about Big Bangs.
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: In my opinion, and just because nobody has uttered the dastardly phrase yet, Adam-God tells us everything we need to know about the Father at present. Ooohh... Let's not go there. Major derail. 1
LittleNipper Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) On 4/24/2017 at 10:30 AM, Ahab said: Clearly you don't know or understand that we all have more than one Father. First our Eternal Father in heaven begat you as his spirit child before you came to this planet. Then a mortal man begat you as his mortal child when you were born here, and all of your grandfathers between your mortal father and our Eternal Father in heaven count as your father too. And now you get to choose to follow either Jesus or "the devil" and the one choose to follow is also considered your father. And if you are Catholic you can consider yourself to have even more fathers than that. Silly you, thinking you can have only one. So you believe in TRIUNE birth. Funny, I don't remember any of this being in the Bible. Also, while GOD can create, and Jesus being the ONLY begotten Son of GOD has everything to do with CHRIST's relationship to the Father, how did GOD have us without a wife HIS equal? So Mormons don't accept the TRIUNITY of the GODHEAD, yet apparently trust in a triune birth for humans unfounded in the holy scriptures. I'm one with the Universal CHURCH of Christ because I'm a believer in Jesus being God's only begotten Son and one with the Father and the redeemer of whosoever believes in Him. Catholic actually means Universal --- though I'm not a "Roman" Catholic. Edited April 26, 2017 by LittleNipper
Darren10 Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: You don't really believe those kinds of things work, do you? Nope, not at all. / I think I'll have some onion rings for lunch today.
snowflake Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 15 hours ago, JAHS said: Here's how the Angel Moroni did it: "After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance." (JSH 1: 43) So a conduit appeared in the light, which must have been some kind of tube or tunnel going up into heaven and Joseph saw him ascend up until he was no longer in sight. This brings up some interesting issues. Moroni did not change himself into energy or anything else; he remained a recognizable personage all the way up to heaven. So probably not a Star Trek transport beam. He went through some sort of conduit or tunnel which somehow materialized through the ceiling of the house. What was this conduit made of? How did it appear? Heaven is "up" somewhere. Some kind of energy in the form of light is used for his appearance, unless it is simply the light emanating from the glory of his body. For some reason the light had to first gather itself immediately around the being before he was able to go up to heaven. Interesting take (I think you are correct), it's as though God (or Christ) uses some unknown technology to transport the risen Jesus in and out of closed rooms. Similar to how you said Moroni appears. Gabriel and Michael also seem to appear "out of thin air" in the Bible. It seems to me that "heaven" and "the spirit world" are possibly in another dimension. We are trapped in the length X width X height X time dimensions. Many scriptures lead to this idea that we are living in a separate world from the "spirit world".
clarkgoble Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 17 hours ago, Ahab said: I was talking about my perceptions of time and space, and there is nothing complicated about either one, from my perspective. Space does not end somewhere, beyond which point there is no more space. There isn't even one gap with nothing in the middle because in any perceived gap there is always at least a little more space. A continuous flow of space from one place to another place, with never an end to the places. And there is always a before and an after as well as a time of the present between a before and an after. Nothing complicated about any of it, regardless of how some people seem to want it to appear to be complicated. Well again if we're talking our perceptions in the regular day to day world, I'm not sure that's true. The reason the ancients assumed a dome over the earth is because the stars all look like they're at the same distance due to the way the brain determines distance. And if we're talking the physics of what we can experience rather than esoteric theoretical physics then there's a finite size to the universe. The issue of gaps ends up being a bit more complex too in folk physics. Thus the whole debate for centuries about whether there is a vacuum or not. So to me, while people might disagree, it's all pretty complicated. At least looking at the variety of how people describe their experiences and perspectives. How we tend to describe it in our culture is largely affected by the development of physics over centuries but at a somewhat superficial level. You're right that there's an assumption of continuity even if it is perhaps a somewhat problematic assumption. But of course you are the best judge of your own perceptions. I was speaking a little more broadly, recognizing not everyone has the same theoretical basis of expectations that helps shape their perceptions. 1
JLHPROF Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Ooohh... Let's not go there. Major derail. Spoilsport. (But it's hardly a derail - it specifically addresses the thread topic).
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Spoilsport. (But it's hardly a derail - it specifically addresses the thread topic). Yeah, but don't you think it would get heated?
clarkgoble Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: You don't really believe those kinds of things work, do you? Funny story about Bohr. A friend was visiting in the home of Nobel Prize winner Niels Bohr, the famous atom scientist. As they were talking, the friend kept glancing at a horseshoe hanging over the door. Finally, unable to contain his curiosity any longer, he demanded: “Niels, it can’t possibly be that you, a brilliant scientist, believe that foolish horseshoe superstition! ? !” “Of course not,” replied the scientist. “But I understand it’s lucky whether you believe in it or not.” That's from “The American Weekly” in September 1956. 4
JLHPROF Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Yeah, but don't you think it would get heated? Not really. Most people reject the teaching. A few people accept it or some version of it. Either way, it contains teachings of a prophet and President of the Church and his contemporaries on God the Father who they believed to be Adam. The OP states "What do we really know about God the Father?" Other than it being opinion versus knowledge there isn't much to debate on Adam-God.
clarkgoble Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) On 4/24/2017 at 6:02 PM, Mormons Talk said: I'm glad you quoted this. It has never made sense to me. Its used as proof that the Holy Spirit has the appearance of a man, and it then states that this man dwells in each of us (potentially within millions of people all at once). Can you help me understand how a single personage can dwell within multiple people simultaneously? Yup I agree. It never made sense to me since it conflates the power of the Holy Ghost with the personage. Since we now have the original fragmentary notes out of which Orson Pratt compiled that section I wish the church would give the original in a footnote at least. Clearly Joseph's point didn't fully get captured but Pratt version distorts thing more IMO. http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/2Apr43.html ¶ again reverted to Elders Hyde mistake. &c. the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.--and a person cannot have the personage of the H G in his heart he may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. it may descend upon him but not to tarry with him,-- Edit: actually Pratt took it from History of the Church which was edited from the various accounts by Leo Hawkins which was then edited by others. In any case the version in our D&C is problematic and makes little sense. Edited April 26, 2017 by clarkgoble Fixed embarrassing typo 1
Bernard Gui Posted April 27, 2017 Author Posted April 27, 2017 On 4/25/2017 at 9:44 AM, JLHPROF said: Not really. Most people reject the teaching. A few people accept it or some version of it. Either way, it contains teachings of a prophet and President of the Church and his contemporaries on God the Father who they believed to be Adam. The OP states "What do we really know about God the Father?" Other than it being opinion versus knowledge there isn't much to debate on Adam-God. What the heck! Go for it. So is Adam-God opinion or knowledge?
Bernard Gui Posted April 27, 2017 Author Posted April 27, 2017 On 4/25/2017 at 9:25 AM, clarkgoble said: Funny story about Bohr. A friend was visiting in the home of Nobel Prize winner Niels Bohr, the famous atom scientist. As they were talking, the friend kept glancing at a horseshoe hanging over the door. Finally, unable to contain his curiosity any longer, he demanded: “Niels, it can’t possibly be that you, a brilliant scientist, believe that foolish horseshoe superstition! ? !” “Of course not,” replied the scientist. “But I understand it’s lucky whether you believe in it or not.” That's from “The American Weekly” in September 1956. I believe, I believe! I grew up in Los Alamos, but was born after the Bohr visiting years.
clarkgoble Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I believe, I believe! I grew up in Los Alamos, but was born after the Bohr visiting years. Cool. I worked there in the early 90's and my business partner grew up there.
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