What do we really know about God the Father?

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

And because of that anthropromorphyzing, we end up in some ways with less. Especially after nearly two-hundred years since the Restoration, one would hope for details to start filling in. But it all just seems to be more about a model of obedience, of transferring hope to the next life for stuff to work out, but in the meantime, follow the model. It seems to me to have started off a servicable model for polygamists, and has become an effective model for perpetuating the church. 

Sister Eubanks talk sadly seems to need to invoke the Divine Feminine by talking about a Roman goddess. Seems like women and the real work of the world today is less and less relevant to the Restoration model.

Yes, if you take the Mormon construct of apostasy on face value, this idea that there used to be pure truth about God that people knew about that was then lost, and Mormonism represents a restoration of those truths.  Personally I think we can do better, but there is tension between knowing "details" about God without also placing limits on God.  We see this clear back in the ten commandments where one of the commandments was for no graven images of God, in other words, no visual representations of God should be made, because we don't want to limit God to a particular image or construct.  

I also found it funny that sister Eubanks had to use a Roman goddess to find attributes for a divine feminine, because I think these attributes are completely lacking in Mormonism.  However, if we can own up to the idea of Mormonism as truth, then we should be able to expand our views of the feminine in our theology.  I just don't want strict gender roles imposed, because in recent years we are learning so much more about how fluid gender really is, and how stereotyping people into categories is so hurtful.  Lots of growth on is needed throughout society and Mormonism.  

 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Not really. The thoughtful people are there, but so is correllation. 

Ah yes. That nasty correlation thingy. We just had a FHE with some fellow empty-nesters. Plenty of opinions expressed, no correlation committee spies.

[Meadowchik]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ah yes. That nasty correlation thingy. We just had a FHE with some fellow empty-nesters. Plenty of opinions expressed, no correlation committee spies.

I have great convos on my own time as well.

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I disagree, we have many doctrines (teachings) about what God is like.  God is explicitly male according to doctrine.  God is the highest patriarch, the prime example of male attributes.  Now, there isn't a checklist of these attributes listed in scripture, but you can find many allusions to what this patriarchal role is like, some especially interesting ideas about it from our polygamy days.  I guess this comes down to what you consider doctrine, but I define it as teachings from the apostles and prophets.  

If you define teachings from the prophets and apostles as doctrine, then you have to accept that God is also explicitly a woman according to Mormon teachings - the highest matriarch: 

Quote

 

It should be no surprise, then, that most Mormon leaders could not understand how Father or Mother could be divine alone. For either to be fully God, each must have a partner with whom to share the power of endless lives. As Elder Erastus Snow (Quorum of the Twelve, February 12, 1849–May 27, 1888) avowed:

“What,” says one, “do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of man and woman?” Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that God has ever said about himself . . . I must believe that deity consists of man and woman. . . . There can be no God except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, or ever will be a God in any other way.46 We may never hope to attain unto the eternal power and the Godhead upon any other principle . . . this Godhead composing two parts, male and female.47" 

These sentiments were later reaffirmed by President Hugh B. Brown (Quorum of the Twelve, April 10, 1958–December 2, 1975), by Elders James E. Talmage, Melvin J. Ballard (Quorum of the Twelve, January 7, 1919–July 30, 1939), and by Bruce R. McConkie (First Council of the Seventy, October 6, 80 v BYU Studies1946–October 12, 1972).48 Given the popular contemporary LDS view that the highest form of worship is to emulate character, worship of the Father is also, indirectly, worship of the Mother, as each has equally perfect moral character."

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not aware of anyone predicting that heaven will be a state perpetual enmity with God, so I'm not sure what your point about enmity is.  

This was in response to your comment that becoming like God "minimalizes individuality and creativity." 

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I said individual righteousness.

You also said individual preference. See what I quoted. 

Quote

Is there a personality difference between perfect God the Father and a perfected man? Whats God's individual personality? 

There is no perfect personality just as there is no perfect color.  Perfection is not a personality type.  Perfect obedience allows for different textures and colors of personality.  There is endless space within the commandments/laws to be creative and express your individual nature.  Perfection simply entails not transgressing God's law, why should that inhibit individuality and personality?

 

[hope_for_things]

42 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you define teachings from the prophets and apostles as doctrine, then you have to accept that God is also explicitly a woman according to Mormon teachings - the highest matriarch: 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven

This was in response to your comment that becoming like God "minimalizes individuality and creativity." 

Wow, I really love those quotes, thanks for sharing the link, I will give it a read.  These are the parts of Mormonism that i find really inspiring, but also dangerous at the same time.  Inspiring that leaders feel impressed to share their expansive views about God, to share what they are feeling moved to share without fear of judgement.  On the flip side, there have been many racist, sexist, and bigoted statements made with this same freedom.  That is the challenge.  

None of this would make it through correlation in the contemporary church, which has stifled both the good and the bad sides of the freedom that used to exist. 

Of course its all just humans sharing their personal experiences and speculations.  What I would find inspiring would be an open and honest discussion about what constitutes the core doctrines of the gospel.  Since we're in a constant state of change in reaction to our environment, we need to constantly be re-evaluating our core principles in response.  That doesn't mean we change our principles every time something happens, but it does mean we re-evaluate and potentially adjust according to new information.  To me, this is what modern day revelation should look like.  

Edited May 17, 2017 by hope_for_things

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

There are limitations with the Mormon construct is what I'm saying.  I would agree there are limitations with other religious constructs as well.  I never want to limit God the idea of God or someone's experience with God.  I'm perfectly fine with individuals saying "my experience with God is ....."  But I don't like it when authoritative organized religions try to tell us that God is literally and specifically certain attributes, and that God isn't these other attributes.  

Religions have too much power to limit God for believers because believers are more aligned with religious authority figures than they are willing to explore what God means without bounds.  That is what I'm getting at.  Don't bind God to our limited cultural and mortal gender roles.  God is more, God is greater, God is ineffable.  

So now you get that it's subjective.

That’s half of it anyway 

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Wow, I really love those quotes, thanks for sharing the link, I will give it a read.  These are the parts of Mormonism that i find really inspiring, but also dangerous at the same time.  Inspiring that leaders feel impressed to share their expansive views about God, to share what they are feeling moved to share without fear of judgement.  On the flip side, there have been many racist, sexist, and bigoted statements made with this same freedom.  That is the challenge.  

None of this would make it through correlation in the contemporary church, which has stifled both the good and the bad sides of the freedom that used to exist. 

Of course its all just humans sharing their personal experiences and speculations.  What I would find inspiring would be an open and honest discussion about what constitutes the core doctrines of the gospel.  Since we're in a constant state of change in reaction to our environment, we need to constantly be re-evaluating our core principles in response.  That doesn't mean we change our principles every time something happens, but it does mean we re-evaluate and potentially adjust according to new information.  To me, this is what modern day revelation should look like.  

And there it is. 

This is what I see everywhere in the church.

All you need is a recommend,  and create within those parameters 

[hope_for_things]

58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So now you get that it's subjective.

That’s half of it anyway 

I've been on the subjective band wagon for a little while now.  You're partially to blame!  

[hope_for_things]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And there it is. 

This is what I see everywhere in the church.

All you need is a recommend,  and create within those parameters 

These ideas exist, but they aren't condoned by the brethren, and they certainly aren't talked about in my ward on Sunday and I've seen many members find things not currently preached by leaders to be threatening.  

As for a recommend, I'm not interested right now, still processing emotional trauma around my temple experiences and my faith journey, but perhaps in the future.  The big question being whether any bishop would give me a recommend if I'm completely transparent about my heretical view points.  We'll see what the future holds.  

[probablyHagoth7]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 Last week we actually had one brother get up and praise another and the one being praised snored through the entire comment.  

In your meeting, while one was saying praise to the man...

...the other may have been contemplating greater things. 

 

(Even Joseph acknowledged "When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back...") 

 

...for those who believe God has a healthy sense of humor...a nod to the OP  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

These ideas exist, but they aren't condoned by the brethren, and they certainly aren't talked about in my ward on Sunday and I've seen many members find things not currently preached by leaders to be threatening.  

As for a recommend, I'm not interested right now, still processing emotional trauma around my temple experiences and my faith journey, but perhaps in the future.  The big question being whether any bishop would give me a recommend if I'm completely transparent about my heretical view points.  We'll see what the future holds.  

Get some...cojo.....courage.

Always answer completely truthfully but it is not necessary to tell your life story.

Your bishop is not your psychiatrist.  And with some.......courage..... you follow your own mind and heart and don't care about what others tell you.  Pray/ponder/think creatively and rigorously and let your feet and heart guide you.

I am a temple worker and can't wait to get into those doors and don't want to leave.   I would be there every day if I could saying all those same words again and again and finding things anew. I have it all memorized and don't even need to go to recite in my mind and I can't wait to get there because my brain does not have that.........spirit....  til I get there.    Mortal humans did not come up with that stuff.

Don't let someone else's interpretation of anything get in the way of your own creation.  This is YOUR world you are making.

This is YOUR matter unorganized to organize.

Become your OWN prophet and measure his words against what God tells YOU.  That is the prime directive in Moroni 10: 4-5.  That is how you know the church is true or false- by the words the church has given you!!!   That is what kills me when people say it is all about obedience!!  They could not be more wrong- if it was all about obedience there would be NO CONVERTS.

Every convert is NOT being obedient to his old church.   The problem is that people who were born in the church do not GET THAT!!!

Just know that the very process you are going through is what God does.  And to do what you are doing makes you a god in embryo.  And to understand that makes you a Mormon, like it or not.

So in a sense, to find your own way is to be a Mormon.   Forget what mommy and some primary teacher planted in your brain and use your brain instead of reacting to someone else's opinion.

And don't get angry at the brethren because another way works for them- that is their cross to bear.  Their universe does not have to be your universe.  But if you actually listen to conference talks you will discover that it is no longer the way you think it is at all.

Resentment kills.  Get rid of it and get on with life in or out of the church.  But lose the resentment.  It will chew you up from the inside out.

Edited May 17, 2017 by mfbukowski

[hope_for_things]

56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Get some...cojo.....courage.

Always answer completely truthfully but it is not necessary to tell your life story.

Your bishop is not your psychiatrist.  And with some.......courage..... you follow your own mind and heart and don't care about what others tell you.  Pray/ponder/think creatively and rigorously and let your feet and heart guide you.

I am a temple worker and can't wait to get into those doors and don't want to leave.   I would be there every day if I could saying all those same words again and again and finding things anew. I have it all memorized and don't even need to go to recite in my mind and I can't wait to get there because my brain does not have that.........spirit....  til I get there.    Mortal humans did not come up with that stuff.

Don't let someone else's interpretation of anything get in the way of your own creation.  This is YOUR world you are making.

This is YOUR matter unorganized to organize.

Become your OWN prophet and measure his words against what God tells YOU.  That is the prime directive in Moroni 10: 4-5.  That is how you know the church is true or false- by the words the church has given you!!!   That is what kills me when people say it is all about obedience!!  They could not be more wrong- if it was all about obedience there would be NO CONVERTS.

Every convert is NOT being obedient to his old church.   The problem is that people who were born in the church do not GET THAT!!!

Just know that the very process you are going through is what God does.  And to do what you are doing makes you a god in embryo.  And to understand that makes you a Mormon, like it or not.

So in a sense, to find your own way is to be a Mormon.   Forget what mommy and some primary teacher planted in your brain and use your brain instead of reacting to someone else's opinion.

And don't get angry at the brethren because another way works for them- that is their cross to bear.  Their universe does not have to be your universe.  But if you actually listen to conference talks you will discover that it is no longer the way you think it is at all.

Resentment kills.  Get rid of it and get on with life in or out of the church.  But lose the resentment.  It will chew you up from the inside out.

Thanks, this is an inspiring case you make, and I see a glimmer of hope that I might arrive at this destination at some future time.  I love the call to be my own prophet and I want to do that.  I feel the creative goodness in your appeal to organize my own matter, and create for myself.  Thank you, MFB, these are hope filled words that convey your strong testimony of goodness and how Mormonism works for people like yourself.

Its going to take more time for me to lose the resentment.  I can feel it, its under the surface.  Its under control and its less than it was a year ago, but its still there.  I need to build more positive experiences to help offset that resentment, and I'm trying to do that now.  

For the temple, I'm not sure how I will overcome some of the bitter feelings I have towards it now.  I don't know why, can't explain why exactly that the temple has been the destination for many of my most angry thoughts and hurt feelings.  I have much kinder thoughts towards church leaders, and I know many people who feel more anger towards the leaders, but for some reason the repository of much of my hurt has been the temple.  

When I see the pain of historical racism in Mormonism, I see the temple.  When I see the pain of sexism I see the temple.  When I see the pain of my LGBT brothers and sisters I see the temple.  To me, the temple has become the symbol of division and bigotry in the church.  And then on top of all that as I learned about the history of temple ceremony I think how much better of a job I could do in creating meaningful rituals than Joseph and Brigham did.  And I'm not even very smart, I can only imagine what great rituals some really thoughtful theologians could create with beauty and inclusiveness for all.  

So there is a lot of work to be done before I even want to return to the temple.  In spite of all the good experiences I've had attending in the past.  The rose that I cherished has turned into a thorn, and its going to take a lot of work before it can turn back into something worthy of my desire again.  

 

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks, this is an inspiring case you make, and I see a glimmer of hope that I might arrive at this destination at some future time.  I love the call to be my own prophet and I want to do that.  I feel the creative goodness in your appeal to organize my own matter, and create for myself.  Thank you, MFB, these are hope filled words that convey your strong testimony of goodness and how Mormonism works for people like yourself.

Its going to take more time for me to lose the resentment.  I can feel it, its under the surface.  Its under control and its less than it was a year ago, but its still there.  I need to build more positive experiences to help offset that resentment, and I'm trying to do that now.  

For the temple, I'm not sure how I will overcome some of the bitter feelings I have towards it now.  I don't know why, can't explain why exactly that the temple has been the destination for many of my most angry thoughts and hurt feelings.  I have much kinder thoughts towards church leaders, and I know many people who feel more anger towards the leaders, but for some reason the repository of much of my hurt has been the temple.  

When I see the pain of historical racism in Mormonism, I see the temple.  When I see the pain of sexism I see the temple.  When I see the pain of my LGBT brothers and sisters I see the temple.  To me, the temple has become the symbol of division and bigotry in the church.  And then on top of all that as I learned about the history of temple ceremony I think how much better of a job I could do in creating meaningful rituals than Joseph and Brigham did.  And I'm not even very smart, I can only imagine what great rituals some really thoughtful theologians could create with beauty and inclusiveness for all.  

So there is a lot of work to be done before I even want to return to the temple.  In spite of all the good experiences I've had attending in the past.  The rose that I cherished has turned into a thorn, and its going to take a lot of work before it can turn back into something worthy of my desire again.  

 

Regarding the symbolism- you do not see what's there.  In short, there is much more than you see.  Using a phrase Goble would like, EVERYTHING is a sign especially the signs which have multiple layers of meaning timed to fit the covenants.  In short the signs are saying volumes- it has nothing to do with beauty or inspiration- it is cognitive, logical theology being expressed in a language you do not see.  There is a progression in meaning in the signs.  You are seeing the squiggles on the page without knowing there are words and paragraphs there.  I am working on a lexicon but it will never see the light of day- it is for me alone.   But if you like games and puzzles, there is an eternity there waiting for you to discover.  The first key is in facsimile 2 and it grows from there.

"This is however simply figurative as far as the man and the woman are concerned"

The other fact is that men's and women's brains are different.  Look it up.  There ARE gender differences.  Another fact is that women are actually given far greater blessings than men in the initiatories- if there is sexism in the temple, it is that women are favored over men.  VERY clearly.

If you cannot see either of those, I cannot help you- it is there for you to find and figure out in the land of organizing your own world.

I have no clue where you see racism in the temple.

But I am really sorry you feel that way.

[mfbukowski]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks, this is an inspiring case you make, and I see a glimmer of hope that I might arrive at this destination at some future time.  I love the call to be my own prophet and I want to do that.  I feel the creative goodness in your appeal to organize my own matter, and create for myself.  Thank you, MFB, these are hope filled words that convey your strong testimony of goodness and how Mormonism works for people like yourself.

Its going to take more time for me to lose the resentment.  I can feel it, its under the surface.  Its under control and its less than it was a year ago, but its still there.  I need to build more positive experiences to help offset that resentment, and I'm trying to do that now.  

For the temple, I'm not sure how I will overcome some of the bitter feelings I have towards it now.  I don't know why, can't explain why exactly that the temple has been the destination for many of my most angry thoughts and hurt feelings.  I have much kinder thoughts towards church leaders, and I know many people who feel more anger towards the leaders, but for some reason the repository of much of my hurt has been the temple.  

When I see the pain of historical racism in Mormonism, I see the temple.  When I see the pain of sexism I see the temple.  When I see the pain of my LGBT brothers and sisters I see the temple.  To me, the temple has become the symbol of division and bigotry in the church.  And then on top of all that as I learned about the history of temple ceremony I think how much better of a job I could do in creating meaningful rituals than Joseph and Brigham did.  And I'm not even very smart, I can only imagine what great rituals some really thoughtful theologians could create with beauty and inclusiveness for all.  

So there is a lot of work to be done before I even want to return to the temple.  In spite of all the good experiences I've had attending in the past.  The rose that I cherished has turned into a thorn, and its going to take a lot of work before it can turn back into something worthy of my desire again.  

 

Again- all this talk about doctrine- in point of fact, Mormonism is very loosley structured and it is debatable as to whether we have doctrine.  It's not like I am making this stuff up

I am sure you have seen this but who knows- since you think there is evil doctrine in every turn of a page:  http://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2005/04/is-there-any-mormon-doctrine/

Catholics for example have a Catechism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church and a Magisterium- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium

We have contradictory articles in Ensign.   Give me a break!

We are structured that way intentionally so that we follow the spirit for ourselves.

If the problem is Utah, you gotta get out of there.  All this stress on obedience I see on this board- really- I have not seen it anywhere else.

You honestly pass a recommend interview- that's it!

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Regarding the symbolism- you do not see what's there.  In short, there is much more than you see.  Using a phrase Goble would like, EVERYTHING is a sign especially the signs which have multiple layers of meaning timed to fit the covenants.  In short the signs are saying volumes- it has nothing to do with beauty or inspiration- it is cognitive, logical theology being expressed in a language you do not see.  There is a progression in meaning in the signs.  You are seeing the squiggles on the page without knowing there are words and paragraphs there.  I am working on a lexicon but it will never see the light of day- it is for me alone.   But if you like games and puzzles, there is an eternity there waiting for you to discover.  The first key is in facsimile 2 and it grows from there.

I'm convinced that humans are able to find all kinds of meaning in things by making connections and discovering symbols that the original authors had no intention of creating.  We've evolved to do this.  The book of Revelation has kept millions of people captivated for centuries finding all kinds of symbols that relate to their unique circumstances.  The human mind is amazingly capable of creating meaning out of meaningless things.  I tend to believe we will find whatever meaning layer upon layer if we try hard enough. 

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

"This is however simply figurative as far as the man and the woman are concerned"

Interesting that you would choose a passage from the retired temple ritual to illustrate your point.  Why do you think they removed this sentence?  Seems like a move by the literalists to assert their views about a literal Adam and Eve.  Too bad...

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The other fact is that men's and women's brains are different.  Look it up.  There ARE gender differences.  Another fact is that women are actually given far greater blessings than men in the initiatories- if there is sexism in the temple, it is that women are favored over men.  VERY clearly.

If you cannot see either of those, I cannot help you- it is there for you to find and figure out in the land of organizing your own world.

I have no clue where you see racism in the temple.

But I am really sorry you feel that way.

The sexism in the temple is extensive and I'm sorry if you can't see it.  Sexism in Mormonism is pervasive in every aspect of the culture and the religion.  It really is frustrating as society is continuing to move in a more egalitarian direction (still a long ways to go), but the Mormon church continues to be behind the rest of society and the gap between the two is growing larger all the time.  

When I talked about the temple representing sexism, racism and LGBT discrimination to me, I'm speaking symbolically and not specifically about temple ritual and practice.  While all those elements are also present in the rituals, its the history, culture, and policies of the church in general towards those groups that I see symbolized in the temple.  Like I said earlier, I'm not sure why exactly the temple symbolizes these things for me, where as for others I know the brethren are more of a negative symbol for these things. 

I'm a sis-gendered straight middle class white male of privilege.  As I've been educated more about my status of privilege my empathy for others has increased dramatically, and as I continue to empathize with them I have a harder time with the social policies of the church.  If you don't see these problems, my guess is that you haven't looked hard enough to see past your privilege. 

[hope_for_things]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Again- all this talk about doctrine- in point of fact, Mormonism is very loosley structured and it is debatable as to whether we have doctrine.  It's not like I am making this stuff up

I am sure you have seen this but who knows- since you think there is evil doctrine in every turn of a page:  http://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2005/04/is-there-any-mormon-doctrine/

Catholics for example have a Catechism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church and a Magisterium- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium

We have contradictory articles in Ensign.   Give me a break!

We are structured that way intentionally so that we follow the spirit for ourselves.

If the problem is Utah, you gotta get out of there.  All this stress on obedience I see on this board- really- I have not seen it anywhere else.

You honestly pass a recommend interview- that's it!

I wish it was so simple, but with family complications, moving out of state isn't that easy.  I'll survive, I make comments regularly in church and some people I'm sure are uncomfortable with my comments, but others tell me they appreciate them.  

I've carved out a healthy enough place that I don't have too much angst each week in church, so its largely been a good experience since becoming active again at the beginning of the year.  I may even ask for a calling again soon, we'll see.  And I agree about the doctrine thing, we really don't have very many official doctrines, it just seems that way because of how most people teach lessons on Sunday.  

[mfbukowski]

That sentence refers to the whole discussion. I was there.

Don't tell me about privilege.

I was a student of Angela Davis. We're your Grammer school best friends blown up by a racist bomber because of the color of their skin?

You are such a kid!

All my best to you I hope it goes well for you no matter what you end up doing.

[mfbukowski]

One more thing,grasshopper, the intent of the author never matters.

YOU are the author when you are creating your world. You are still looking out there for what is inside.

You take his irrelevant matter unorganized and make it into gold.

Sei gesund.

[hope_for_things]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

One more thing,grasshopper, the intent of the author never matters.

YOU are the author when you are creating your world. You are still looking out there for what is inside.

You take his irrelevant matter unorganized and make it into gold.

Sei gesund.

Yes, I like this point, it's an important one. Thanks as always for making me think.  

[whirlingmerc]

We know al lot

1)  Jesus is the image of the Father

2)  The Father and Son enjoyed love and glory before the world was made

3)   The father is involved in  the pruning or cutting of every branch in John 15  and so very thorough

4) The Father is pleased with the Son