What do we really know about God the Father?

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Why all the mystery and claims of inscrutability? And why controversy during a priesthood lesson when such contentiousness is totally unnecessary? The scriptures reveal a great deal about person, nature and character of Jesus Christ; and it was the Savior himself who said if we know him (Christ) we also know the Father. And it's the Apostle Paul who said the Father is in Christ revealing himself (the Father) to the world. So all one has to do to know the Father is to read the scriptures, especially the four gospels in the Bible and the account of the Savior's post-resurrection ministry in the Book of Mormon, and one can learn a great deal about the person, nature and character of God the Father through learning about Jesus Christ, for he is in every way one with the Father. And if all this is not enough, try studying and ingesting the King Follett discourse.

One can discuss without contention, which is what happened in our group. And we frequently discuss how many angels can sit in a thimble. We are all great friends who have been through a lot together over almost 4 decades. The greatest recorded revelations resulted from children of God wondering about Father. Curiosity and imagination lead to faith and knowledge.

I have studied the King Follett discourse since I first learned about it in 1964 as a freshman at BYU in Hugh Nibley, Hyrum Andrus, Walt Bowen, Daniel Ludlow, Ivan Barrett, John Fugal, Chauncy Riddle, and Cleon Skousen classes and lectures. I'm the one who posts Hubble NASA photos and calls them God's playground and hopes to get to play there someday. What do you suggest I ingest?

Why not just join the discussion? So, what do we really know? What's your list? What does it mean to dwell in everlasting burnings? How is it possible to know everything? Why can God not countenance even the smallest of sins? How does the Father keep our planet in orbit? When was Father's first experience with creation? When Enos's sins were forgiven how did that happen? He wondered, too. When did the Father first learn about baptism? 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

Why all the mystery and claims of inscrutability? And why controversy during a priesthood lesson when such contentiousness is totally unnecessary? The scriptures reveal a great deal about person, nature and character of Jesus Christ; and it was the Savior himself who said if we know him (Christ) we also know the Father. And it's the Apostle Paul who said the Father is in Christ revealing himself (the Father) to the world. So all one has to do to know the Father is to read the scriptures, especially the four gospels in the Bible and the account of the Savior's post-resurrection ministry in the Book of Mormon, and one can learn a great deal about the person, nature and character of God the Father through learning about Jesus Christ, for he is in every way one with the Father. And if all this is not enough, try studying and ingesting the King Follett discourse.

Knowing someone, knowing their character, is different than knowing about them. 

The first time I looked in my future husband's eyes I knew him. I knew I could trust him. I knew his heart. I did not know where he grew up. I did not know of his issues with anxiety. I knew him. I knew he was kind. I knew he was intelligent. I knew he tried to be obedient - I knew his character, but I didn't know anything about him except his name,  that he was tall and blond, LDS and going to Utah State.

We know where the Savior grew up. We don't know about the youth of Heavenly Father. We know conversations Jesus had with many people. We don't know of conversations of Father except where they involve Jesus. We have a good idea where Jesus walked in his mortal life and the personal relationships he had while here. We have no knowledge of anything like that of a mortal life of the Father.

We can know the Father and his character because we know the Son. We don't know much about the Father.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

Knowing someone, know their character, is different than knowing about them. 

The first time I looked in my future husband's eyes I knew him. I knew I could trust him. I knew his heart. I did not know where he grew up. I did not know of his issues with anxiety. I knew him. I knew he was kind. I knew he was intelligent. I knew he trier to be obedient - I knew his heart.

We know where the Savior grew up. We don't know about the youth of Heavenly Father. We know conversations Jesus had with many people. We don't know of conversations of Father except where they involve Jesus. We have a good idea where Jesus walked in his mortal life and the personal relationships he had while here. We have knowledge of anything like that of a mortal life of the Father.

We can know the Father and his character because we know the Son. We don't know much about the Father.

We have only a handful of recorded words uttered by the Father.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Knowing someone, knowing their character, is different than knowing about them. 

The first time I looked in my future husband's eyes I knew him. I knew I could trust him. I knew his heart. I did not know where he grew up. I did not know of his issues with anxiety. I knew him. I knew he was kind. I knew he was intelligent. I knew he tried to be obedient - I knew his character, but I didn't know anything about him except his name,  that he was tall and blond, LDS and going to Utah State.

We know where the Savior grew up. We don't know about the youth of Heavenly Father. We know conversations Jesus had with many people. We don't know of conversations of Father except where they involve Jesus. We have a good idea where Jesus walked in his mortal life and the personal relationships he had while here. We have no knowledge of anything like that of a mortal life of the Father.

We can know the Father and his character because we know the Son. We don't know much about the Father.

The scriptures teach us Christ is the revelation of who and what God the Father is to man. Christ himself also taught he did nothing except those things which he saw the Father do before he himself did them. The Kimg Follett discourse goes on to say the Father was once a mortal man who, I assume, went through experiences much like our own while faithfully traversing the path that led ultimately to his reception of the fulness of eternal glory. The minutiae of things like whether or he preferred pepperoni pizza to sausage pizza, or baseball to football, seems to be of little import. As Joseph Smith once said, if you want to know God, know yourself.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

The scriptures teach us Christ is the revelation of who and what God the Father is to man. Christ himself also taught he did nothing except those things which he saw the Father do before he himself did them. The Kimg Follett discourse goes on to say the Father was once a mortal man who, I assume, went through experiences much like our own while faithfully traversing the path that led ultimately to his reception of the fulness of eternal glory. The minutiae of things like whether or he preferred pepperoni pizza to sausage pizza, or baseball to football, seems to be of little import. As Joseph Smith once said, if you want to know God, know yourself.

Because I don't like to assume things,  what are you saying here? 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The minutiae of things like whether or he preferred pepperoni pizza to sausage pizza, or baseball to football, seems to be of little import.

I'm puzzled by your animus. Pizza? If God were Australian, we should be more concerned about footy and cricket.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

From Encyclopedia of Mormonism...

Quote

Latter-day Saints also attribute omnipotence and omniscience to the Father. He knows all things relative to the universe in which mortals live and is himself the source and possessor of all true power manifest in it. This is part of what it means to be exalted, and this is why human beings may safely put their faith and trust in God the Father, an exalted being. Nevertheless, in most things dealing with this world, the Father works through a mediator, his Son, Jesus Christ. With few exceptions, scriptural references to God, or even to the Father, have Jesus Christ as the actual subject, for the Father is represented by his Son. On those few recorded occasions when the Father has plainly manifested himself, he has apparently limited his personal involvement to bearing witness of the Son, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:17), at the transfiguration (Matt. 17:5), in his witness to the Nephites and Lamanites (3 Ne. 11:7), and in Joseph Smith's First Vision (JS-H 1:17). Christ is the agent of the Father, and since he alone, by his Atonement, has made access to the Father possible, Latter-day Saints worship and pray to the Father and offer all other sacred performances to him in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ (Moses 5:8).

 

[Bernard Gui]

Here is the exposition by the First Presidency that established our doctrine of the relationship between the Father and the Son and how Jesus is aptly called our Father...but it says very little about God the Father Himself.

Quote

• THE FATHER AND THE SON

A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve ApostlesFrom Improvement Era, Aug. 1916, 934–42; capitalization, punctuation, paragraphing, and spelling standardized.

In the early 1900s, some discussion arose among Church members about the roles of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following in 1916 to clarify the meaning of certain scriptures where Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, is designated as the Father. It is thought that a printing of this statement will be helpful to members as they study the Old Testament this year.

The scriptures plainly and repeatedly affirm that God is the Creator of the earth and the heavens and all things that in them are. In the sense so expressed, the Creator is an Organizer. God created the earth as an organized sphere; but He certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for “the elements are eternal” (D&C 93:33).

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19 for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

The term “Father” as applied to Deity occurs in sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of the four significations specified in the following treatment should be carefully segregated.

1. “Father” as Literal Parent

Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification—literally that of Parent—are too numerous and specific to require citation. The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title “Elohim,” is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Heb. 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught by Jesus Christ to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name” (Matt. 6:9).

Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, “Son” and “Father.” Indeed, He specifically said to the brother of Jared: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title “Son of God” as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary.

2. “Father” as Creator

A second scriptural meaning of “Father” is that of Creator; e.g., in passages referring to any one of the Godhead as “the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are” (Ether 4:7; see also Alma 11:38–39; Mosiah 15:4).

God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, not of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called “the Father,” and even “the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth” (see passages before cited and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called “The Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6; compare 2 Ne. 19:6). The descriptive titles “Everlasting” and “Eternal” in the foregoing texts are synonymous.

That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation is set forth in the book Jesus the Christ, chapter 4 [by James E. Talmage]. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is consistently called the Father of heaven and earth in the sense explained above; and since His creations are of eternal quality He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.

3. Jesus Christ the “Father” of Those Who Abide in His Gospel

A third sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the “Father” has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.

In fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the Apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the gospel through the ministry of the Apostles. Read in our Lord’s own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him:

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

“And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:6–12).

And further:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:20–24).

To His faithful servants in the present dispensation the Lord has said, “Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me” (D&C 50:41).

Salvation is attainable only through compliance with the laws and ordinances of the gospel; and all who are thus saved become sons and daughters unto God in a distinctive sense. In a revelation given through Joseph the Prophet to Emma Smith, the Lord Jesus addressed the woman as “my daughter” and said, “For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom” (D&C 25:1). In many instances the Lord had addressed men as His sons (e.g., D&C 9:1; D&C 34:3; D&C 121:7).

That by obedience to the gospel men may become sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and, through Him, as sons of His Father, is set forth in many revelations given in the current dispensation. Thus we read in an utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hyrum Smith in 1829:

“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.

“I am the same who came unto mine own and mine own received me not;

“But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen” (D&C 11:28–30).

To Orson Pratt the Lord spoke through Joseph the seer, in 1830:

“My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

“The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son” (D&C 34:1–3).

In 1830 the Lord thus addressed Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:

“Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

“I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one” (D&C 35:1–2).

Consider also the following given in 1831:

“Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

“The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

“But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons” (D&C 39:1–4).

In a revelation given through Joseph Smith in March 1831 we read:

“For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

“I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life” (D&C 45:7–8).

A forceful exposition of this relationship between Jesus Christ as the Father and those who comply with the requirements of the gospel as His children was given by Abinadi, centuries before our Lord’s birth in the flesh:

“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

“Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

“For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

“Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed” (Mosiah 15:10–13).

In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye do the deeds of your father. … If God were your Father, ye would love me. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 41–42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the tares: “The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one” (Matt. 13:38).

Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).

By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit—mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:

“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). An analogous instance of sonship attained by righteous service is found in the revelation relating to the order and functions of priesthood, given in 1832:

“For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies:

“They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God” (D&C 84:33–34).

If it be proper to speak of those who accept and abide in the gospel as Christ’s sons and daughters—and upon this matter the scriptures are explicit and cannot be gainsaid nor denied—it is consistently proper to speak of Jesus Christ as the Father of the righteous, they having become His children and He having been made their Father through the second birth—the baptismal regeneration.

4. Jesus Christ the “Father” by Divine Investiture of Authority

A fourth reason for applying the title “Father” to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human familyJesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30; see also John 17:11, 22); yet He declared, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and further, “I am come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43; see also John 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Ne. 20:35; 3 Ne. 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (D&C 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.

We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).

The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).

And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).

The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.

None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:15–19).

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:28–29).

John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev. 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said, as before cited, “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23).

There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of humankind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any or all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Salt Lake City, Utah, 30 June 1916

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[snowflake]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

We have only a handful of recorded words uttered by the Father.

Try reading Job 38-42, God the Father's response to Job. 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job 38-42

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Try reading Job 38-42, God the Father's response to Job. 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job 38-42

Thank you for the suggestion. Some believe this is allegorical. What do you think it reveals about the Father? Is this Elohim or Jehovah speaking....the Creator....?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Sorry, but how could that be true when Jesus Himself said 

John 8:44-45

⁴⁴ Your father is the devil. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars. ⁴⁵ Because I speak the truth, you don’t believe Me.

 

Clearly everyone is not a child of God if their father is the devil...

Clearly you don't know or understand that we all have more than one Father.

First our Eternal Father in heaven begat you as his spirit child before you came to this planet.

Then a mortal man begat you as his mortal child when you were born here, and all of your grandfathers between your mortal father and our Eternal Father in heaven count as your father too.

And now you get to choose to follow either Jesus or "the devil" and the one choose to follow is also considered your father.

And if you are Catholic you can consider yourself to have even more fathers than that.

Silly you, thinking you can have only one.

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Ahab

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

That he is a lot like Jesus, except that everyone is a child of our Father in heaven but it takes a special covenant to also be a child of Jesus.

So our Father has more children than Jesus.

Does He? Do you know who the Father has given unto Jesus? 

What/who are the mountains of the Father inherited by Jesus? Isa 65:9.

I like you Ahab, but I would phrase it that Jesus is a lot like Heavenly Father - indeed, He is exactly like the Father, and hence who had seen Him, had seen the Father, since He did exactly what He had seen the Father do. I believe the Father has made Yeshua responsible for all His mountains. The deed is done. "It is finished" as Yeshua said. 

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for the suggestion. Some believe this is allegorical. What do you think it reveals about the Father? Is this Elohim or Jehovah speaking....the Creator....?

I tend to read the bible more literal and historical than allegorical but of course many areas of the bible are allegory. Several things revealed about the Father ( YHWH or Adonai, Elohim, Jehova) many names in the OT for God.  I'm always awestruck by the reprimand the Father lays on Job. The Father is pure intelligence, to be able to lay out the foundations of the earth, the water cycles, the creatures described, and yet he seems so concerned with the small intricate details as well, like a truly loving Father, just amazes me. There are so many intricate details about science that were clearly unknown to the world at the time of Job described in these few chapters ie: Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Indicating he is so much bigger than we can ever understand. Yet he declares his total authority over creation: verse 41:11" ....whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine." I get the sense that because he is so concerned with all of his creations (animal kingdom) that he is even more concerned with us!  And since created everything He is the boss!

 

 

[freedad]

“Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us.”

Ezra Taft Benson

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Does He? Do you know who the Father has given unto Jesus? 

Given him responsibility and authority over all of us, yes, and perhaps in some other ways too when Jesus received all that our Father has (or hath in colloquial terms), but just as our Father's wife (or wives) do not and will not become our wives, too, when our Father gives us all that he has, so too his children do not and will not become the children of everyone who receives all that our Father has even though we may be given some responsibility and authority over them, too.

Quote

What/who are the mountains of the Father inherited by Jesus? Isa 65:9.

See above.

Quote

I like you Ahab, but I would phrase it that Jesus is a lot like Heavenly Father - indeed, He is exactly like the Father, and hence who had seen Him, had seen the Father, since He did exactly what He had seen the Father do. I believe the Father has made Yeshua responsible for all His mountains. The deed is done. "It is finished" as Yeshua said. 

Yep, but you may have noticed that even if all of our Father's children will someday become all of our children, too, with all of us being each other's father or mother, that particular event has not happened yet, IF it ever will happen.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Ahab

[RevTestament]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----.  I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback.

What do we really know about God the Father?

Our HP group discussed more how to worship and who do we worship.

I volunteered we are instructed to worship the Father, but as we do so in Jesus' name, we also worship Jesus. I pointed out we are never instructed in scripture to worship the Holy Spirit. - Indeed this is confusing fault of the doctrine of the trinity. Some Christians have said they pray to the Holy Spirit. 

I don't think of Heavenly Father as omnipresent. We don't actually know that. I believe He is omniscient. I believe He knows the thoughts of all including Satan. This does not necessarily mean that Heavenly Father is present everywhere in the universe - every square inch of space, in every star, etc. I used to have such thoughts, but no longer do. 

I also think we know more about Heavenly Father than you believe. I believe Jesus showed us Heavenly Father - what He is like. I believe He was Heavenly Father's "legal agent" here on the earth. He spoke and acted with the complete authority of Heavenly Father.

However, I also believe that no one knows Heavenly Father except to whom Yeshua reveals Him. This implies there are things about Heavenly Father Jesus had not quite fully revealed or which were revealed but unappreciated and lost. 

But I do believe we have more than "a handful" of Heavenly Father's words. Please refer to Deuteronomy 18. Who is speaking as YHWH here? Refer to Isaiah 42. Who is speaking here to his Servant? This kind of language is all over the Tanakh. It is certainly more than a handful.

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yep, but you may have noticed that even if all of our Father's children will someday become all of our children, too, with all of us being each other's father or mother, that particular event has not happened yet, IF it ever will happen.

I posit to you that all of Heavenly Father's children will become/are now Yeshua's children, but you are right that this is a process. Perhaps we just disagree as to how far along we are in the process...

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[Darren10]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

CFR. 

LOL!

Got a mirror?

[Robert F. Smith]

56 minutes ago, freedad said:

“Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us.”

Ezra Taft Benson

Are you related to Eldad & Modad?  

Anyhow, welcome to this board.

[MiserereNobis]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting and a tad heated discussion in our HP group today. The topic was God the Father and the instructor started writing things on the board such as body, mercy, love, omni-----.  I said we don't really know very much about him. I pointed out that while those words are descriptive based on our familiar language, we don't know what they mean, most just come from assumptions we make, and we can know nothing about God unless it is revealed to us. I got some strong pushback.

What do we really know about God the Father?

 

I'm glad you brought up this issue.  I've noticed sometimes that the Catholic (and to a degree mainstream Christian) idea that the nature of God is a mystery to us at this time is looked down upon by some LDS, probably due to some of the quotes that follow in this thread.  I think, however, that it is just a matter of where you draw the line.  For example, if I say the nature of God's being is a mystery, a Mormon might say, "no, it's not, God is the same as we are, but glorified and exalted."  My follow up question is: "what exactly does it mean to be glorified and exalted?"  I hold that the answer to that question is a mystery in Mormonism, so ultimately the nature of God's being is a mystery in Mormonism, like it is in Catholicism.  If the answer is: "to be exalted is to be like God" well, then, we've just come full circle.

[Mormons Talk]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm glad you brought up this issue.  I've noticed sometimes that the Catholic (and to a degree mainstream Christian) idea that the nature of God is a mystery to us at this time is looked down upon by some LDS, probably due to some of the quotes that follow in this thread.  I think, however, that it is just a matter of where you draw the line.  For example, if I say the nature of God's being is a mystery, a Mormon might say, "no, it's not, God is the same as we are, but glorified and exalted."  My follow up question is: "what exactly does it mean to be glorified and exalted?"  I hold that the answer to that question is a mystery in Mormonism, so ultimately the nature of God's being is a mystery in Mormonism, like it is in Catholicism.  If the answer is: "to be exalted is to be like God" well, then, we've just come full circle.

I too have a sense that Mormons ought to not forget the mysterious natures of God the Father and Jesus Christ.  Yes, there are certain things about them that we can grasp - but as infinite, perfect beings, our mortal minds cannot possibly understand them completely.

[Robert F. Smith]

God the Father lives in celestial time, far, far away in distant galaxy, on an unnamed solid orb like a sea of glass, where one day is as a thousand years on Earth.  We do know the name of the next most important orb, Kolob.  There is then a third orb, Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation (three of them total).  By keys of power, such governing orbs rule various planets within their bailiwick or realm, through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.  Recent discoveries of dark matter bridges between galaxies give us some inkling of how that may operate.  Lauren Tousignan, “Astronomers capture image of elusive force that connects the universe,” NewYorkPost, April 14, 2017, online at http://nypost.com/2017/04/13/astronomers-capture-image-of-elusive-force-that-connects-the-universe/ .

Thus, God and his angels reside on a "great Urim and Thummim" -- "a globe like a sea of glass and fire" (in fact, tremendous mass and gravitation make stars crystalline) -- indeed, this earth will become a "crystal . . . Urim and Thummim."   Such imagery is familiar from biblical descriptions of the throne of God and the New Jerusalem (Ezk 1 & 10, Dan 7, Rev 4 - 5, 11, 15:2, 20:11, 21 - 22).  M. A. Ruderman, "Solid Stars," Scientific American, 224/2 (Feb 1971), 24-31, 130; cf. I Enoch 14:9-23.

God was once a man, and now (still possessing his human body) he is a god.  Esther J. Hamori, "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (Berlin: de Gruyter, 2008); Benjamin Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Cambridge University Press, 2009).  All men may become gods through apotheosis.  All men of Earth are the spiritual offspring of God the Father, whose primary joy is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  All men are coeternal with God.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[JAHS]

Duplicate post

Edited April 24, 2017 by JAHS

[JAHS]

Often people will recite the experience of the first vision as proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. While it's true that Joseph saw two personages standing before him, how could he tell by just looking at them that they had tangible bodies rather than just spirits in human form, unless he actually touched them?  
I understand that he later received this knowledge by revelation (D&C 130), but I think people incorrectly use only the first vision account as proof of this.  

[JAHS]

Duplicate post

Edited April 24, 2017 by JAHS