What do we really know about God the Father?

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Often people will recite Joseph Smith's experience of the first vision as proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. While it's true that Joseph saw two personages standing before him, how could he tell by just looking at them that they had tangible bodies rather than just spirits in human form, unless he actually touched them?  
I understand that he later received this knowledge by revelation (D&C 130), but I think people incorrectly use only the first vision account as proof of this.  

I think the big thing we learned or had restored to us by the 'First Vision' is that our Father is a distinct person, like Jesus is a distinct person, rather than just 2 different appearances of the same person that many people refer to as God.  

Joseph clearly saw that while there is only one God, as a kind of being, that God consists of different persons, rather than only one person. 

And yes I know many people who still do not understand.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, freedad said:

“Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us.”

Ezra Taft Benson

It appears there is an error in this popular quotation plus context helps supply what he meant:

"Now we are here. Our memories are veiled. We are showing God and ourselves what we can do. Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father and how familiar His face is to us."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/12/jesus-christ-gifts-and-expectations?lang=eng

Edited April 24, 2017 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think the big thing we learned or had restored to us by the 'First Vision' is that our Father is a distinct person, like Jesus is a distinct person, rather than just 2 different appearances of the same person that many people refer to as God.

This is not what Trinitarianism teaches.

Quote

Joseph clearly saw that while there is only one God, as a kind of being, that God consists of different persons, rather than only one person.

This is really close to what Trinitarianism teaches -- one God, three Persons.

Are you a Mormon Trinitarian, Ahab?

Quote

And yes I know many people who still do not understand.

Do you mean your fellow Mormons?  I am a bit confused -- how you described God is not how I've heard Mormons describe God.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is not what Trinitarianism teaches.

There are several versions of Trinitarianism, or at least it seems so to me.

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is really close to what Trinitarianism teaches -- one God, three Persons.

Are you a Mormon Trinitarian, Ahab?

I am, but you and others are not required to agree with me or my understanding.

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mean your fellow Mormons?  I am a bit confused -- how you described God is not how I've heard Mormons describe God.

You hadn't heard it all before, then, had you. I've heard many describe God as I do, whether LDS and otherwise.

Stephen seeing Jesus on the right side of our Father, for example.

Just curious, do you have any problem with the idea of our Father and Jesus actually being 2 distinct persons as Joseph saw them.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, freedad said:

“Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us.”

Ezra Taft Benson

I haven't been to heaven lately, well that heaven.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

I tend to read the bible more literal and historical than allegorical but of course many areas of the bible are allegory. Several things revealed about the Father ( YHWH or Adonai, Elohim, Jehova) many names in the OT for God.  I'm always awestruck by the reprimand the Father lays on Job. The Father is pure intelligence, to be able to lay out the foundations of the earth, the water cycles, the creatures described, and yet he seems so concerned with the small intricate details as well, like a truly loving Father, just amazes me. There are so many intricate details about science that were clearly unknown to the world at the time of Job described in these few chapters ie: Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Indicating he is so much bigger than we can ever understand. Yet he declares his total authority over creation: verse 41:11" ....whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine." I get the sense that because he is so concerned with all of his creations (animal kingdom) that he is even more concerned with us!  And since created everything He is the boss!

 

 

The Book of Job is indeed remarkable. In light of the First Presidency Exposition, Jesus (Jehovah) created the earth under the Father's authority and instructions. The Son, not the Father, is speaking to Job.

[JAHS]

Dup post

Edited April 24, 2017 by JAHS

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Just curious, do you have any problem with the idea of our Father and Jesus actually being 2 distinct persons as Joseph saw them.

I don't agree with the interpretation of that vision -- that God the Father and Jesus Christ are totally separate and have physical bodies.  However, if I had a vision of the two standing in the air that vision in and of itself would not contradict my Trinitarian beliefs.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Our HP group discussed more how to worship and who do we worship.

Good for you. So did ours. The part I mentioned took about 3 minutes.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

LOL!

Got a mirror?

Vampires avoid mirrors. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

For example, if I say the nature of God's being is a mystery, a Mormon might say, "no, it's not, God is the same as we are, but glorified and exalted."  My follow up question is: "what exactly does it mean to be glorified and exalted?"  I hold that the answer to that question is a mystery in Mormonism, so ultimately the nature of God's being is a mystery in Mormonism, like it is in Catholicism.  If the answer is: "to be exalted is to be like God" well, then, we've just come full circle.

I have already pointed that out. We use those words, but we do not know what they really mean. Of course, this does not negate or diminish our doctrine, it simply illustrates the limits of our knowledge. We can't know anything about God unless he reveals it to us. The time will come when it will all be crystal clear.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't agree with the interpretation of that vision -- that God the Father and Jesus Christ are totally separate and have physical bodies.  However, if I had a vision of the two standing in the air that vision in and of itself would not contradict my Trinitarian beliefs.

As I thought, and that seems to be the main big difference between our understanding of God that needed to be restored to counter what we regard as an incorrect understanding of God.

God as a kind of being that actually exists as distinct, individual persons in the same way that we, our kind of being, does.  In fact, we are the same kind of being.

Physical in the same way that we are a physical kind of being, but with their resurrected form more perfectly complete and glorious than we appear to be now in our mortal bodies.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I haven't been to heaven lately, well that heaven.

And not too many people have their premortality memories restored while still mortal.

Perhaps freedad could explain how he sees the quote applying to the thread's topic?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't think of Heavenly Father as omnipresent. We don't actually know that. I believe He is omniscient. I believe He knows the thoughts of all including Satan. This does not necessarily mean that Heavenly Father is present everywhere in the universe - every square inch of space, in every star, etc. I used to have such thoughts, but no longer do. 

However, I also believe that no one knows Heavenly Father except to whom Yeshua reveals Him. This implies there are things about Heavenly Father Jesus had not quite fully revealed or which were revealed but unappreciated and lost. 

But I do believe we have more than "a handful" of Heavenly Father's words. Please refer to Deuteronomy 18. Who is speaking as YHWH here? Refer to Isaiah 42. Who is speaking here to his Servant? This kind of language is all over the Tanakh. It is certainly more than a handful.

The omni-words....... words that describe God but that we cannot fully comprehend.

The things we don't know that are not revealed....those are the things I am talking about. There are far more of those than the things we know.

Deut 18 and Isaiah 42....maybe YHWH, maybe not. Two chapters out of how many in the Standard Works? Not very many, if they are indeed words of the Father. The issue of whose voice was addressed in the quote from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and the First Presidency Exposition.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Mormons Talk said:

I too have a sense that Mormons ought to not forget the mysterious natures of God the Father and Jesus Christ.  Yes, there are certain things about them that we can grasp - but as infinite, perfect beings, our mortal minds cannot possibly understand them completely.

Thank you. We can all list a few things we know, hundreds of things we do not know know or understand, and there are surely many more we can't even imagine. What we have is sufficient for our needs at this time, but there is so much more to learn. Fortunately we will have a very long time to do that and the best teacher to help us.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

God the Father lives in celestial time, far, far away in distant galaxy, on an unnamed solid orb like a sea of glass, where one day is as a thousand years on Earth.  We do know the name of the next most important orb, Kolob.  There is then a third orb, Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation (three of them total).  By keys of power, such governing orbs rule various planets within their bailiwick or realm, through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.  Recent discoveries of dark matter bridges between galaxies give us some inkling of how that may operate.  Lauren Tousignan, “Astronomers capture image of elusive force that connects the universe,” NewYorkPost, April 14, 2017, online at http://nypost.com/2017/04/13/astronomers-capture-image-of-elusive-force-that-connects-the-universe/ .

Thus, God and his angels reside on a "great Urim and Thummim" -- "a globe like a sea of glass and fire" (in fact, tremendous mass and gravitation make stars crystalline) -- indeed, this earth will become a "crystal . . . Urim and Thummim."   Such imagery is familiar from biblical descriptions of the throne of God and the New Jerusalem (Ezk 1 & 10, Dan 7, Rev 4 - 5, 11, 15:2, 20:11, 21 - 22).  M. A. Ruderman, "Solid Stars," Scientific American, 224/2 (Feb 1971), 24-31, 130; cf. I Enoch 14:9-23.

God was once a man, and now (still possessing his human body) he is a god.  Esther J. Hamori, "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (Berlin: de Gruyter, 2008); Benjamin Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Cambridge University Press, 2009).  All men may become gods through apotheosis.  All men of Earth are the spiritual offspring of God the Father, whose primary joy is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  All men are coeternal with God.

Thank  you. That is a great list of things we know about God the Father. Why do you think He is in another galaxy?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Often people will recite the experience of the first vision as proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. While it's true that Joseph saw two personages standing before him, how could he tell by just looking at them that they had tangible bodies rather than just spirits in human form, unless he actually touched them?  
I understand that he later received this knowledge by revelation (D&C 130), but I think people incorrectly use only the first vision account as proof of this.  

Other than immortality and tangibility what do we know about an exalted body of flesh and bone?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank  you. That is a great list of things we know about God the Father. Why do you think He is in another galaxy?

I don't really know.  Just making a suggestion.  Others think that the realm of God is the entire universe.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is really close to what Trinitarianism teaches -- one God, three Persons.

What do you know about the Father? Do you believe Jesus still inhabits his resurrected body?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm glad you brought up this issue.  I've noticed sometimes that the Catholic (and to a degree mainstream Christian) idea that the nature of God is a mystery to us at this time is looked down upon by some LDS, probably due to some of the quotes that follow in this thread.  I think, however, that it is just a matter of where you draw the line.  For example, if I say the nature of God's being is a mystery, a Mormon might say, "no, it's not, God is the same as we are, but glorified and exalted."  My follow up question is: "what exactly does it mean to be glorified and exalted?"  I hold that the answer to that question is a mystery in Mormonism, so ultimately the nature of God's being is a mystery in Mormonism, like it is in Catholicism.  If the answer is: "to be exalted is to be like God" well, then, we've just come full circle.

The dividing line is resurrection, either before or after. And that is because of the fall of Adam and Eve and us being born into mortality, as they became.

Intelligence is also a big part of it, too, with us being classified into different degrees of glory, which is intelligence, ie the glory of God is intelligence.

So we point to what Adam and Eve were before they fell, like our Father and Jesus in form, physically, but not as intelligent with the veil blocking their earlier memories of being with their and our Father in heaven.  After they fell they were as we are now, growing in intelligence, again, with a greater knowledge and comprehension of good vs evil, with the veil still blocking their (and our) earlier memories of God and heaven and the way we were, etc. And we will continue to grow in intelligence, again, hopefully, with our earlier memories someday being restored and with us being resurrected back into the form Adam and Eve were in before they fell, the same form or kind of form Jesus has now that he has been resurrected.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't really know.  Just making a suggestion.  Others think that the realm of God is the entire universe.

Lots of room out there.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Often people will recite the experience of the first vision as proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. While it's true that Joseph saw two personages standing before him, how could he tell by just looking at them that they had tangible bodies rather than just spirits in human form, unless he actually touched them?  
I understand that he later received this knowledge by revelation (D&C 130), but I think people incorrectly use only the first vision account as proof of this.  

The Bible itself consistently posits an anthropomorphic God long before Jesus is embodied.  Y. Muffs, “Agent of the Lord, Warrior for the People: The Prophet’s Paradox,” Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002), 23, "The biblical God is anthropomorphic.  Whoever strips God of his personal quality distorts the true meaning of Scripture.”

[Darren10]

38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Vampires avoid mirrors. 

Vampires are not children of God.

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Vampires are not children of God.

We know where you live and sleep. 

[RevTestament]

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't agree with the interpretation of that vision -- that God the Father and Jesus Christ are totally separate and have physical bodies.  However, if I had a vision of the two standing in the air that vision in and of itself would not contradict my Trinitarian beliefs.

How about Stephen's vision of seeing Yeshua on the right hand of the Father? How did he see the Father? If the Father is merely an invisible Spirit, how come He warns Moses that no one can see Him and live? Is He lying that those who see Him will die? So that Moses will only see His back parts?