I’m Back, Did You Miss Me? Appropriateness of Singing I am a Child of God

[JulieM]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

JC, Would you have gagged if it had been "Imagine" by John Lennon?

Well, there are probably people here who this would "kind of trigger a gag reflex" if they heard someone start to sing that song when they all feared they were about to die.

Afterwards would they maybe question the appropriateness of singing "Imagine" at that moment?  I don't know...but I think some may feel that way.

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Well, there are probably people here who this would "kind of trigger a gag reflex" if they heard someone start to sing that song when they all feared they were about to die.

Afterwards would they maybe question the appropriateness of singing "Imagine" at that moment?  I don't know...but I think some may feel that way.

This just sparked a memory. Not a distant one, but something I just remembered. Have you heard of Cherry Hill in Fruit Heights, Utah? It's a campground plus waterpark, miniature golf etc. Every summer they have free concerts on Friday & Saturday nights. It started many years ago, but before concerts they would have a movie about the church. Then they started having the concerts and a lot of local talent perform. I live in the area and for years various wards will take part in being member missionaries to the campers or visitors.

Last summer I and my husband passed out papers in the campground before the concert started, with the missionary info in case anyone would like to know more about the LDS church. Even with my faith crisis I'm going along with it, because I couldn't say no when asked to do it in my ward, and there was something in the back of my mind that it could be true.

But back to the concert, at the end of every concert they will have the audience sing "I am a child of God". My husband and I will often go to these concerts and enjoy the music, most of them very good. But when they sing that song, it does feel strange to me, because I know there are several non Mormons there. I never gagged but it didn't feel right for some reason. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

For me it really came down to the appropriateness of singing that song at that moment...for me it was ill timed. 
 

But as to your point...you may be correct.  I'm a non member and yet my life is immersed in Mormonism.  Despite everything I do I can not excape its grasp.  So yes my reaction was partically based on this reality I'm sure...not even at this point could I escape the church...its everywhere arggggggg

So why post here?  It's about processing my Mormon experience...its part of my recovery and healing from the religion

Ah, you poor thing. I didn't realize you wanted sympathy from this land of freedom....

As part of your recovery process, I prescribe going and living in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or some lovely country like that. Of course I would recommend against airing your gag reflex to paying the jizyah, or being expected to pray to Allah - it may be hazardous to your health.

Report back in a few months as to your experience, and whether Mormons still want to make you gag.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

Ah, you poor thing. I didn't realize you wanted sympathy from this land of freedom....

As part of your recovery process, I prescribe going and living in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or some lovely country like that. Of course I would recommend against airing your gag reflex to paying the jizyah, or being expected to pray to Allah - it may be hazardous to your health.

Report back in a few months as to your experience, and whether Mormons still want to make you gag.

Wow, no words. I don't think Mormons made him gag, just the way that they think they have the one true church and if you don't join you won't live with God. That's me talking though not JC of course. 

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Good point. One person's comfort can be another person's discomfort, even to the extreme point of gag-inducing.

Well, since it is considered shirk to pray to Allah as my father, yeah I personally would find it very uncomfortable despite your personal good experience with Muslims. The fact that it is being intentionally indoctrinated into our children I find disturbing. I also find it disturbing that in this land which won't allow the simplest Christian prayer or teaching to be taught at schools that Muslim prayers, doctrines, and dress are being taught in social studies and history classes - something seems very off about that...

poster removed

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, no words. I don't think Mormons made him gag, just the way that they think they have the one true church and if you don't join you won't live with God. That's me talking though not JC of course. 

This is a land of religious freedom. Johnny doesn't seem to appreciate that. I think going somewhere else may help him appreciate it. No one forced him to sing or believe like them. I don't have any sympathy for his gag reflex. He needs to grow up imho.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I didn't say we shouldn't give our opinions (I've given mine and stated that hearing that song would have touched me and comforted me since I love it).  What I stated was that JC was honestly relating what his reaction was and I don't think we should be telling anyone how they should have reacted just because it's different from how we would have.  He was just being honest.

Probably a more interesting discussion would be regarding why he reacted that way and then trying to understand why he feels as he does.  I see a few who have tried to do that here (Meadowchik, Tacenda and maybe others).

The premise of JC's OP is that the singing woman shouldn't have started singing that song.  The thread is about how inappropriate someone's honest reaction was from his point of view.

It was her honest reaction and JC feels comfortable judging it, and asking us to judge it as well.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If JC starts a thread judging someone else's reaction he'd better be prepared for his own reaction to receive the same treatment.  

Not out of unkindness but because that is the discussion he has specifically set up.

I'm guessing he probably is.  

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I agree in that it speaks to some unhealthy issues in regards to Mormonism that hopefully JC can work out. 

We all have irrational reactions to some things. That doesn't mean they are ok or healthy or should be defended.

Feelings don't need to be defended!

Did he say he altered his behavior to people because they sang? No!

Feelings don't need defending, but many here can't accept the idea that he had these feelings. Should we open up those feelings up to equal critical analysis? Or perhaps we can open a dialogue about the pain of transitioning out of Mormonism.

[JulieM]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The premise of JC's OP is that the singing woman shouldn't have started singing that song.  The thread is about how inappropriate someone's honest reaction was from his point of view.

He asked a question (or an inferred one in the title as I didn't see a question in the OP about the appropriateness of the song).  He related his reaction but said nothing about other's reactions (who it calmed) being inappropriate (unless I missed it in another post).

Here's what he posted:

"As we made our last approach, amid the turbulence and panic there could be heard a single soft voice over the audible screams and cries, a lone sister missionary returning from her missionary service…began to sing out loud…”I am a Child of God” others began to join in…as a clam over took those who had only moments before failed to confront their fears.

While being a non-believer I must admit that it did kind of trigger my gag reflex…for the believers it did seem to calm them down."

Where does he state their reaction was inappropriate?

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He asked a question (or an inferred one in the title as I didn't see a question in the OP).  He related his reaction but said nothing about other's reaction being inappropriate (unless I missed it in another post).

Here's what he posted:

"As we made our last approach, amid the turbulence and panic there could be heard a single soft voice over the audible screams and cries, a lone sister missionary returning from her missionary service…began to sing out loud…”I am a Child of God” others began to join in…as a clam over took those who had only moments before failed to confront their fears.

While being a non-believer I must admit that it did kind of trigger my gag reflex…for the believers it did seem to calm them down."

 

Maybe it made him feel all alone amidst the mostly LDS?

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Ah, you poor thing. I didn't realize you wanted sympathy from this land of freedom....

As part of your recovery process, I prescribe going and living in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or some lovely country like that. Of course I would recommend against airing your gag reflex to paying the jizyah, or being expected to pray to Allah - it may be hazardous to your health.

Report back in a few months as to your experience, and whether Mormons still want to make you gag.

How about generating a heart with sympathy for everyone in their various conditions without making it about the goods of Mormonism versus the evils of Islam?

There is good and evil in both. There is good and evil outside of religion.

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He asked a question (or an inferred one in the title as I didn't see a question in the OP).  He related his reaction but said nothing about other's reaction being inappropriate (unless I missed it in another post).

Here's what he posted:

"As we made our last approach, amid the turbulence and panic there could be heard a single soft voice over the audible screams and cries, a lone sister missionary returning from her missionary service…began to sing out loud…”I am a Child of God” others began to join in…as a clam over took those who had only moments before failed to confront their fears.

While being a non-believer I must admit that it did kind of trigger my gag reflex…for the believers it did seem to calm them down."

Where does he state their reaction was inappropriate?

I don't think softly singing was inappropriate, but just as they have the right to sing without being disruptive, he or she has the right to feel whatever he or she feels, we all do.

It's probably a good thing for people in a majority to realize that others may not feel like they feel in a given situation, even if it seems totally innocuous and even good and helpful to them.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He asked a question (or an inferred one in the title as I didn't see a question in the OP about the appropriateness of the song).  He related his reaction but said nothing about other's reactions (who it calmed) being inappropriate (unless I missed it in another post).

Where does he state their reaction was inappropriate?

In the title of the thread he asks whether her reaction was appropriate. 

Then there is also his subsequent post to me-

"I respect the screaming, tears, crying and panic but when she burst into song I thought (this isn't what I thought but I'll put in words appropriate for MD&D) "good grief really". All I wanted to do was die in peace but no even this was going to be taken away from me by the freaking mormons on board"

And his post to another poster-

"For me it really came down to the appropriateness of singing that song at that moment...for me it was ill timed."

Edited April 15, 2017 by bluebell

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I don't think softly singing was inappropriate, but just as they have the right to sing without being disruptive, he or she has the right to feel whatever he or she feels, we all do.

It's probably a good thing for people in a majority to realize that others may not feel like they feel in a given situation, even if it seems totally innocuous and even good and helpful to them.

These mirror my views here too.  I think some have skewed or misunderstood what JC was asking or expressing (but I'll let him speak for himself).   What I saw was him honestly relating his experience, his reaction and his thoughts on it.   I didn't see him state that other's reactions were inappropriate (those who were calmed by the song).

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In the title of the thread he asks whether her reaction was appropriate. 

Then there is also his subsequent post to me-

"I respect the screaming, tears, crying and panic but when she burst into song I thought (this isn't what I thought but I'll put in words appropriate for MD&D) "good grief really". All I wanted to do was die in peace but no even this was going to be taken away from me by the freaking mormons on board"

And his post to another poster-

"For me it really came down to the appropriateness of singing that song at that moment...for me it was ill timed."

He didn't ask that in the title (only if he was missed...the other is a statement but I do think a question could be inferred as I already said).

I still see nothing in what you posted where he states that other's reactions to the singing were "inappropriate".  He's still just expressing his own feelings.

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Feelings don't need to be defended!

Did he say he altered his behavior to people because they sang? No!

Feelings don't need defending, but many here can't accept the idea that he had these feelings. Should we open up those feelings up to equal critical analysis? Or perhaps we can open a dialogue about the pain of transitioning out of Mormonism.

No need to shout.

Just because we have feelings doesn't mean they are always valid or reasonable.  There are a lot of feelings that are indefensible and others that are understandable but not healthy.

If you want to start a discussion about the pain of leaving Mormonism do so on a board that allows it.  It wouldn't be inappropriate in the right venue.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

Wow! Serious hostility on this thread toward Johnny Cake's supposed "hostile" reaction. Oh, the irony.

Feelin the love Johnnie? Welcome back  

 

[Tacenda]

deleted

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He didn't ask that in the title (only if he was missed...the other is a statement but I do think a question could be inferred as I already said).

I still see nothing in what you posted where he states that other's reactions to the singing were "inappropriate".  He's still just expressing his own feelings.

And he's clear that his own feelings are that she shouldn't have been singing it.

He said himself that it caused him to swear to himself, to gag, and that it was "ill-timed".

I know he's just expressing his feelings but that's the point.  Everyone on this thread is just expressing their feelings  

If his expression of his feelings is acceptable than so is everyone else's.

 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Is the following meme true? And do the members get angry back.... I think they do...

Elder Holland's quote: "Don’t you dare bail. I am so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experiences is that? As if, as if none of this ever mattered; as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all just supposed to be just exactly the way I want it?"

 

He's just expressing his feelings Tacenda.

 

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And he's clear that his own feelings are that she shouldn't have been singing it.

He said himself that it caused him to swear to himself, to gag, and that it was "ill-timed".

I know he's just expressing his feelings but that's the point.  Everyone on this thread is just expressing their feelings  

If his expression of his feelings is acceptable than so is everyone else's.

 

Of course.  But don't attribute feelings to JC that he didn't express.  That was my point.  His only statement (that I saw) about other's reactions on the plane was it "did seem to calm them down". Nothing about him feeling that reaction was inappropriate.

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He asked a question (or an inferred one in the title as I didn't see a question in the OP about the appropriateness of the song).  He related his reaction but said nothing about other's reactions (who it calmed) being inappropriate (unless I missed it in another post).

Here's what he posted:

"As we made our last approach, amid the turbulence and panic there could be heard a single soft voice over the audible screams and cries, a lone sister missionary returning from her missionary service…began to sing out loud…”I am a Child of God” others began to join in…as a clam over took those who had only moments before failed to confront their fears.

While being a non-believer I must admit that it did kind of trigger my gag reflex…for the believers it did seem to calm them down."

Where does he state their reaction was inappropriate?

He didn't directly say it,  but I have to wonder how often someone would even consider appropriateness (in the title and elsewhere in the thread) in that situation if they didn't even at least think it. I mean it is just so out there to me that it wouldn't ever occur to me.  It has even made me wonder if he knows what the word means. 

I also noticed a lack of question and wondered if there was a question. You inferred he had a question. Others inferred he was doing another dig at mormons. 

While I agree that we can't quite say his feeling was wrong, I also think that we can't say people's feelings about what he said was wrong either.

 I actually believe that feelings can be controlled and chosen at least to SOME extent, though maybe not well in this life so the "you can't have wrong feelings" idea only holds so much water for me.  

 

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

He didn't directly say it,  but I have to wonder how often someone would even consider appropriateness (in the title and elsewhere in the thread) in that situation if they didn't even at least think it.

I see that he was questioning if the missionary singing "I Am A Child of God" for others to hear was appropriate at that time.  Not whether or not people's reaction who were calmed by it was appropriate.

That question could be asked about any song someone would choose to sing loud enough for others to hear right then (as calm asked about the appropriateness of someone starting to sing "Imagine" by John Lennon).  Is it presumptuous to do that with a group of strangers all wondering if they're about to die?

If that song brought comfort to this returning missionary, maybe she should have just sung it softly to herself?  I'm sure she believed it would help others but again, was that an assumption she shouldn't have made?  

What if the question asked in the OP was:

"Was it appropriate for a stranger to start singing the song 'Imagine' to help comfort  those on board who believed they were about to die?"

I imagine the resulting discussion may be different than this one is.

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[juliann]

45 minutes ago, JulieM said:

These mirror my views here too.  I think some have skewed or misunderstood what JC was asking or expressing (but I'll let him speak for himself).   What I saw was him honestly relating his experience, his reaction and his thoughts on it.   I didn't see him state that other's reactions were inappropriate (that were calmed by the song).

No, he just expressed his disdain and disgust for those Mormon people. Here. To us. We have been conscripted to be "part of my recovery and healing from the religion." His recovery and healing, which involves mean spirited comments about what random Mormons do,  can only be done in front of other Mormons for some inexplicable reason. There is a board where this is welcomed and applauded, yet it has to be done here.

So no, this is not about how he reacted on the plane, who cares. It is about him having to say hateful things to other Mormons on a message board. Let's not rearrange what the problem is. No one sought him out to instruct him as to how to feel. No one is unsympathetic to what anyone felt in that situation. It was a good story. Until the purpose of relating it was made clear. We were to be instructed on the gag worthy attempt of a missionary to calm fellow passengers. It wasn't described in reasoned terms like annoying or objectionable. A much more insulting and inflammatory reaction had to be used....gag inducing.  

Have you noticed how many absent posters have begun to pop up since JCake gave us a breather? I rarely start threads, but I recently did because my friends had stopped posting because they were sick of the negativity and ugliness that was dominant. I had stopped posting for the most part. I have nothing against JCake, he really seemed to be trying to reduce his hostility and it was appreciated and noticed. Until the board became a collection of threads filled with microaggression, as in "brief, everyday exchanges that send denigrating messages to certain individuals because of their group membership" (Wikipedia). 

Look at the responses to that animus returning. Again, not because of what he felt but because of the denigrating message he wants to send us.  When this many posters are objecting, it might be time to pay attention.    

Edited April 15, 2017 by juliann

[juliann]

39 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Wow! Serious hostility on this thread toward Johnny Cake's supposed "hostile" reaction. Oh, the irony.

Feelin the love Johnnie? Welcome back  

 

Why would we welcome microaggression? Why should we? Why are you expecting us to?