I’m Back, Did You Miss Me? Appropriateness of Singing I am a Child of God

[JulieM]

20 minutes ago, juliann said:

No, he just expressed his disdain and disgust for those Mormon people. Here. To us. We have been conscripted to be "part of my recovery and healing from the religion." His recovery and healing, which involves mean spirited comments about what random Mormons do,  can only be done in front of other Mormons for some inexplicable reason. 

Well, I have stated numerous times that I don't agree with his reaction, but he's entitled to express it, IMO (as long as he's a member here).   But I don't feel the hate some seem to here.  Maybe I've just not interacted with Johnnie Cake that much but have just seen that he posts some interesting topics which stimulate some great discussions.

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Well, I have stated numerous times that I don't agree with his reaction, but he's entitled to express it, IMO (as long as he's a member here).   But I don't feel the hate some seem to here.  Maybe I've just not interacted with Johnnie Cake that much but have just seen that he posts some interesting topics which stimulate some great discussions.

Love you, JM, but there are no entitlements on a private message board. We are at the mercy of our all powerful owner who did a wholesale cleansing of the macroagressors some time ago. Even I wondered if the board would survive. It did, it thrived. So we get the sneakier stuff now like a drip drip drip. JCake would be great if he would stop the micro stuff.  And there is no question that is what it is when they are over at their own board doing high fives. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It is not intended as hateful...it was more of a reaction...of really?  Here? Now? Good Grief!

For the people expressing themselves at the moment of death, what would be a better here or now?

[Rain]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

I see that he was questioning if the missionary singing "I Am A Child of God" for others to hear was appropriate at that time.  Not whether or not people's reaction who were calmed by it was appropriate.

That question could be asked about any song someone would choose to sing loud enough for others to hear right then (as calm asked about the appropriateness of someone starting to sing "Imagine" by John Lennon).  Is it presumptuous to do that with a group of strangers all wondering if they're about to die?

If that song brought comfort to this returning missionary, maybe she should have just sung it softly to herself?  I'm sure she believed it would help others but again, was that an assumption she shouldn't have made?  

What if the question asked in the OP was:

"Was it appropriate for a stranger to start singing the song 'Imagine' to help comfort  those on board who believed they were about to die?"

I imagine the resulting discussion may be different than this one is.

 

I don't think anyone is questioning people calmed reactions to the song.

I shared my experience because there was really no thinking involved when I started to sing to myself. Considering my experience which was not fraught with panic like this in the plane I can see many not even thinking about it. Is it inappropriate if they naturally started to sing? Why do some assume that it was started purposely to calm others?

And even if she thought about it I just don't see why anyone would question it.

I think bringing it down to just one song simplifies how the conversation went. There is a lot of history. I expect that if Scott LLoyd or Rongo or Calm had asked the question with either song then the conversation also might have gone far differently. If you exchanged the songs with each of those posters then I think there would be far fewer differences than exchanging posters. 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm no better or worse than any other human being living today...I guess we all just confront the end differently

Wouldn't it be better to allow everyone the privilege and honor of confronting the end on their own terms?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm no better or worse than any other human being living today...I guess we all just confront the end differently

I am going to stick with my "you are a terrible person" theory.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it made him feel all alone amidst the mostly LDS?

I think this is more true than not.  I love "I Am A Child of God"...but there has got to be another song grandkids can sing at an LDS funeral...As for JC experience..to me it would be whatever works on a personal level for those who are in the crisis.  But yeah..if you have been a mormon and no longer a mormon..you feel a different kind of alienation because you know what it is like to be a part of the group..and then not.  Sometimes it begs a question of "who am I to God" when somehow faced in a collective group that you know already defines you as an outsider. 

[juliann]

27 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I think this is more true than not.  I love "I Am A Child of God"...but there has got to be another song grandkids can sing at an LDS funeral...As for JC experience..to me it would be whatever works on a personal level for those who are in the crisis.  But yeah..if you have been a mormon and no longer a mormon..you feel a different kind of alienation because you know what it is like to be a part of the group..and then not.  Sometimes it begs a question of "who am I to God" when somehow faced in a collective group that you know already defines you as an outsider. 

Quite true, Jeanne.

And quite apart from targeting a group of Mormons minding their own business to announce it triggered his gag reflex. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, there are probably people here who this would "kind of trigger a gag reflex" if they heard someone start to sing that song when they all feared they were about to die.

Having a greater visceral reaction to the song Imagine then to one's fellow passengers screaming in fear of their lives?  I somewhat doubt that, but I suppose it is possible.

I don't like the song at all.  I find it boring, bland, and unimaginative.  I turn it off anytime I hear it if that is an option.  If someone started singing it in that context I would be greatly relieved someone found a handle to control their panic with and I would likely join them as much as for the distraction of my own fears (concentrating on anything else seems wise and singing is a great way to engage body and mind) as for the emotional connection it would be making with others telling them "I am here and listening, I know you are afraid, I am too, we can get through this together".

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Having a greater visceral reaction to the song Imagine then to one's fellow passengers screaming in fear of their lives?  I somewhat doubt that, but I suppose it is possible.

I don't like the song at all.  I find it boring, bland, and unimaginative.  I turn it off anytime I hear it if that is an option.  If someone started singing it in that context I would be greatly relieved someone found a handle to control their panic with and I would likely join them as much as for the distraction of my own fears (concentrating on anything else seems wise and singing is a great way to engage body and mind) as for the emotional connection it would be making with others telling them "I am here and listening, I know you are afraid, I am too, we can get through this together".

Interesting thoughts (and I admit different from mine as I do believe many wouldn't react well to someone starting to sing that song).  But I get what you're saying and you always cause me to step outside of my thoughts and consider a different approach (except for when we agree ).

I think that bottom line (for me) is that none of us can really predict what we'd do under this type of terrifying stress.  This missionary might not have even realized she began to sing because she was so afraid.  I can say what I think I'd do and then actually do the opposite if faced with this ordeal.  I guess I'd just try not to judge any one else's reaction who was on that plane with me and would try to understand even if I disagreed or it offended me in anyway.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Love you, JM, but there are no entitlements on a private message board. We are at the mercy of our all powerful owner who did a wholesale cleansing of the macroagressors some time ago. Even I wondered if the board would survive. It did, it thrived. So we get the sneakier stuff now like a drip drip drip. JCake would be great if he would stop the micro stuff.  And there is no question that is what it is when they are over at their own board doing high fives. 

I admit I'm not aware of all the history here.  If that's going on, it's wrong.   

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But back to the concert, at the end of every concert they will have the audience sing "I am a child of God". My husband and I will often go to these concerts and enjoy the music, most of them very good. But when they sing that song, it does feel strange to me, because I know there are several non Mormons there. I never gagged but it didn't feel right for some reason. 

A free concert that people are not required to attend or singalong with if they don't want to?  Why wouldn't it be wrong when any of the other songs are okay?

My neighbour has outdoor parties blasting music through the neighbourhood practically every weekend in summertime.  They do so for a local foreign students' club.  I think it is wonderful that they have been committed to helping students far from home feel they have a place they belong.  On occasion their taste in music is way outside my preferences.  I do not gag, I tell meself they are having fun and go on doing what I am doing.  They are not yelling at people intentionally telling them they are going to hell with bullhorns or endlessly repeating the same chant to come buy whatever.  Anything less I can endure knowing the comfort they are providing to many others.

---

A momentary derail of the brain reacting in a major time of stress.  Hardly surprising or noteworthy.  No big deal. One files it away in interesting personal responses, maybe talk to a few close friends about it who get the context. Turning it into a major production by throwing it out here in hopes of grabbing people's attention, knowing what kind of responses labeling such a song as 'gag worthy' would get...that is not selfexploration, imo.

Edited to remove an incorrect assumption

Edited April 15, 2017 by Calm

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I don't think anyone is questioning people calmed reactions to the song.

I shared my experienced because there was really no thinking involved when I started to sing to myself. Considering my experience which was not fraught with panic like this in the plane I can see many not even thinking about it. Is it inappropriate if they naturally started to sing? Why do some assume that it was started purposely to calm others?

And even if she thought about it I just don't see why anyone would question it.

I think bringing it down to just one song simplifies how the conversation went. There is a lot of history. I expect that if Scott LLoyd or Rongo or Calm had asked the question with either song then the conversation also might have gone far differently. If you exchanged the songs with each of those posters then I think there would be far fewer differences than exchanging posters. 

True.

And after thinking more (because of your post and calm's), I recognize it's wrong to assume the intentions of the young woman singing.  As I stated above, she may have not even realized she started singing because of the fear she was experiencing.  

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Interesting thoughts (and I admit different from mine as I do believe many wouldn't react well to someone starting to sing that song).  But I get what you're saying and you always cause me to step outside of my thoughts and consider a different approach (except for when we agree ).

I think that bottom line (for me) is that none of us can really predict what we'd do under this type of terrifying stress.  This missionary might not have even realized she began to sing because she was so afraid.  I can say what I think I'd do and then actually do the opposite if faced with this ordeal.  I guess I'd just try not to judge any one else's reaction who was on that plane with me and would try to understand even if I disagreed or it offended me in anyway.

I can see having the reaction, I think there is a very good chance the brain inflated his annoyance as a distraction from fear.  Anger is often just fear displaced.  However JC is portraying himself as calm and collected and reasonable so I would expect followup reactions to reflect that.  That others picked up the song and joined her confirms that many felt it comforting.  It is unfortunate that not all would feel that way.  It is to be expected given there would be some not familiar with it, some who didn't find it appealing on the best of daysand perhaps even others besides JS who find it annoying because of baggage they have saddled it with. However, I hope most found some satisfaction in seeing fellow passengers find their life preserver and thus controlled their screaming, so at the very least that gut wrenching invasion of audible raw emotion into their thoughts was lessened and at the most end happiness that others were not so afraid, that the audible hug the singers were sending to each other and probably the rest of the cabin by then was working.

Seriously I can't think of much more gag worthy sounds than multiple people screaming in total panic around me.  Now that would be intrusive.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

No need to shout.

Just because we have feelings doesn't mean they are always valid or reasonable.  There are a lot of feelings that are indefensible and others that are understandable but not healthy.

If you want to start a discussion about the pain of leaving Mormonism do so on a board that allows it.  It wouldn't be inappropriate in the right venue.

 

All caps is shouting.

Feelings are feelings. They are indicators of what is going on inside a person, often involving themselves and relationships with other people.

And negative feelings don't always indicate an issue exclusive to the feeler, they can very well indicate a problem within another party.

The LDS Church does have problems, does cause pain, and can improve. One does not have to be non or exmo to know this. 

Maybe one could ask why a person could be hurt enough by the church that one of the sweetest, human-affirming Mormon songs would induce feelings of revulsion. This is entirely a possibility, and it can and should be considered by those who still uphold, sustain, and participate in the church, for its health, its members health, and its health as a social institution across the globe.

This should be an LDS-friendly and faith-affirming topic.

(I have a friend who was molested chrinically by a an LDS authority who had received his second anointing. He is still an active believer and has never reported the offender.)

Do you want the church to become better and more faith-affirming?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I see that he was questioning if the missionary singing "I Am A Child of God" for others to hear was appropriate at that time.  Not whether or not people's reaction who were calmed by it was appropriate.

That question could be asked about any song someone would choose to sing loud enough for others to hear right then (as calm asked about the appropriateness of someone starting to sing "Imagine" by John Lennon).  Is it presumptuous to do that with a group of strangers all wondering if they're about to die?

If that song brought comfort to this returning missionary, maybe she should have just sung it softly to herself?  I'm sure she believed it would help others but again, was that an assumption she shouldn't have made? 

 

Perhaps if others hadn't joined in, she could have stopped or gone quieter once she realized she was singing if it was a gut reaction of her own.  That people joined in would have been a confirmation that it was helpful for them.  

[Jeanne]

Too bad it wasn't something a little universal...like "The Lord's Prayer"...

[Calm]

Is there a well known song with it as lyrics?  I was thinking Amazing Grace would be one many would know well enough to get into.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

 

Maybe one could ask why a person could be hurt enough by the church that one of the sweetest, human-affirming Mormon songs would induce feelings of revulsion. This is entirely a possibility, and it can and should be considered by those who still uphold, sustain, and participate in the church, for its health, its members health, and its health as a social institution across the globe.

 

AGAIN, this is true.

And has nothing to do with someone coming HERE and using words like gag inducing to describe what our peers do in a moment of panic when they have their own board that welcomes it.  I'm sure you would be very welcome there as well if all you do is criticize Mormons. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by juliann

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Is there a well known song with it as lyrics?  I was thinking Amazing Grace would be one many would know well enough to get into.

I was thinking about this as well.  What song could more people relate to or find comfort in?  

I thought of Amazing Grace and also How Great Thou Art.  But then someone would have maybe been offended by those too?

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Too bad it wasn't something a little universal...like "The Lord's Prayer"...

I would have preferred Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree.....

[juliann]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

I was thinking about this as well.  What song could more people relate to or find comfort in?  

I thought of Amazing Grace and also How Great Thou Art.  But then someone would have maybe been offended by those too?

I take a guess that it had more to do with the familiarity and ease of lyrics. Now if they had a band playing while the plane went down.....

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

AGAIN, this is true.

And has nothing to do with someone coming HERE and using words like gag worthy to describe what our peers do in a moment of panic when they have their own board that welcomes it.  I'm sure you would be very welcome there as well if all you do is criticize Mormons. 

I've seen several references now to JC's "own board".  I wasn't aware he had one. I know you can't post a link, but does his forum have a name?  Just curious why he posts here if he has a board of his own (?)

And there's a discussion about his plane experience going on there too?  Very strange....

Edited April 15, 2017 by JulieM

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

I would have preferred Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree.....

Funny, I went there too.  It was as much having something familiar.

I was serious about Imagine as an option, it being better known.

Interesting that JC didn't respond to that question.

The neighbour have started up the music early...sounds like Disney this time around.

Should I start gagging now or wait for a particular song (It's a small world might work).

Edited April 15, 2017 by Calm

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

I would have preferred Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree.....

LOL

Love that song....ha!!!