The Great Apostasy - So what changed?

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Temple sealers have the authority to perform sealing ordinances, however they do not hold the keys of the sealing ordinance.  That key is held by the the president of the church and the quorum of the twelve.  It's that same as in the example you have about the 70 acting under the direction of the quorum of the twelve.  He himself did not hold the keys, but he could ordain a stake president if authorized to by an apostle.  Same with temple sealers.  They are authorized to perform ordinances by and act under the direction of the president of the church.

Are you sure? I've understood temple sealers to exercise the keys of binding on earth and in heaven. A sealer doesn't have a different priesthood office and I don't think it is merely a calling.

It seems to me that they hold the keys to perform those ordinances, yet still follow the direction of the temple president who follows the direction of the Q12, kind of how a bishop holds keys, yet still follows the direction of the SP, because they have higher keys.

Someone can hold keys yet still be limited in the way they exercise those keys because someone with higher keys can direct them.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's a great question. The great apostasy is central to the church's claims of a restoration, yet, like you say, there really isn't any information about it beyond the claim of apostasy.

Did the ancient apostles simply stop ordaining new apostles and other priesthood holders at some point? I often hear it said that "all the apostles died off" as if they were too stupid or incapable to ordain new apostles. Was the apostasy due to administrative failings and lack of organization? All we really know is that there was an apostasy...because there was an apostasy.

 

I have heard speculation as they were required to gather together to choose the new ones and it was impossible to get the number needed due to persecution.  Another speculation is it was revealed they should withhold the calling because of unrighteousness, but that seems close to a chicken egg problem if the person also believes loss of apostles was prevented apostasy from being corrected.  It seems unlikely that Saints were that much more unrighteousness in general then we are now.

[Johnnie Cake]

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Edited February 16, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So you are saying it is the loss of the Apostolic authority that led to the changes being made?
When the last apostle died and didn't ordain anyone else to the apostleship, then revelation ceased and changes crept in?

I can see that.

Me too. I think the same kind of organizational apostasy occurred when the keys which establish Zion were taken up from the earth (Moses 7: “Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven …And after that Zion was taken up into heaven …behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.). I don’t think it matters how we lose the keys; left to our own devices and the influence of Satan, the earth has no option but to function in an apostate manner, powerful people “seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations,” so to speak, “but cursed …as pertaining to the Priesthood … [and] led away by their idolatry…”

The Lord takes responsibility for taking away the keys in D&C 124:28 (“For there is not a place found on earth that [the Lord] may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood. “).D&C 13:11 says the keys will never again be taken from the earth; the bonafide Zion will remain through the second coming.

As to why the Lord removed the keys from the earth after His mortal ministry, I think John 12:24 comes into play: “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” Of course taking the keys away was in response to many of the factors cited in the canon and Church manuals contributing to an environment where the Lord saw fit to remove these keys. As the Lord overcame sin and death, He overcomes Apostasy.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Anyone who believes that the "following" that the man Jesus of Nazareth had and Paul continued has any resemblance or connection to the church that Joseph Smith founded hasn't done their homework. Unless you believe that Burger King is the restoration of McDonalds....because they both serve hamburgers, sell soft drinks and fries.  I challenge anyone to demonstrate that the one is in any way like the other...with the exception of the LDS church cooping some of the titles given to some of the followers of Jesus such as apostle, bishop, elder etc

Oh, they're similar enough considering the source material on Christ's Church are 2000 year old greek manuscripts written AFTER Christ has already died.
Please don't derail my thread.

[Johnnie Cake]

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Edited February 17, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As to why the Lord removed the keys from the earth after His mortal ministry,

My concern is this quote from the manual sounds like a pretty good description of the Church today, except for the addition of the words "unauthorized".

• “The most important of the internal causes by which the apostasy of the Primitive Church was brought about may be thus summarized: (1) The corrupting of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (2) Unauthorized additions to the prescribed rites of the Church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances. (3) Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 748–49).

So I wanted to pin down exactly how the Church Christ established got to the point where priesthood keys were removed.  We all know what happened after with the establishment of new doctrines and loss of priesthood.
But that didn't happen overnight.  I wanted to know how we got from the Church Christ established to the Church that had no priesthood, indulgences, transubstantiation etc.  What did the journey look like and how did it start?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I want to know what happened in the congregations say, 25 years after the last apostle died.  How was the covenant broken?  What caused revelation to cease?  What were the first ordinances to be altered and was revelation claimed to authorize those alterations?

The covenant -- for the living covenant people, Zion-- was broken the instant Lord took the keys from the earth. The people could not sustain it for a variety of reasons: rebellion, disorganization, poor communication, death, opposition (“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings”--D&C 124:49), etc. so He removed the keys.

Edited February 16, 2017 by CV75

[pogi]

Just as the apostasy of an individual is typically a gradual process over many, many years - the great apostasy was not a single event but I think it was drawn out over several hundreds of years for it to be complete. 

I think the beginning of the end was the lack of presiding authority to receive revelation for the church as a whole, and the 70 didn't seem to function as a quorum to make those decision.  Without that, personal opinion/revelation/interpretation branched off in several different directions with no single person claiming the authority to speak for God and for the church as the whole.  After Peter and the apostles died, the most influential leaders were the Apostolic Fathers, who were theologians and writers who personally studied under the apostles, including: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Symaria.  They didn't have the authority to dictate scripture or determine doctrine however.  There was no clear authoritative head, with continuous persecution and murder weakening their numbers and authority.  It all became a matter of opinion in not long.  

One Liahona article says this:

"Fewer than 400 years after the death of the Savior, the Church as Jesus organized it was nowhere to be found in the whole world. This began the period known as the Great Apostasy."  400 years presumably pointing to the Nicean Council.

It's a pretty good article, maybe worth a read:

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2005/02/what-happened-to-christs-church?lang=eng

 

 

 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The Seventy hold the sealing power but the keys (authority to preside) remain with President Monson and the First Presidency.
If the First Presidency were to be killed/apostatize then the keys would rest with the 12.
If the 12 and the FP were to be killed/apostatize then the keys would rest with the seventy.  Right now they exercise them under the authority of President Monson.
Basically, they have the authority (office) but not the right to preside (keys).
 

• D&C 107:22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
  23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
  24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.
  25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
  26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

 

• The question arises, How can they be equal in authority? Speaking to this question, President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) taught:
  “I want here to correct an impression that has grown up to some extent among the people, and that is, that the Twelve Apostles possess equal authority with the First Presidency in the Church. This is correct when there is no other Presidency but the Twelve Apostles; but so long as there are three presiding Elders who possess the presiding authority in the Church, the authority of the Twelve Apostles is not equal to theirs. If it were so, there would be two equal authorities and two equal quorums in the Priesthood, running parallel, and that could not be, because there must be a head” (Elders’ Journal, Nov. 1, 1906, 43).
  Likewise, the Seventy, who serve under the direction of the Twelve, would become equal in authority only in the event that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve were somehow destroyed.  - Gordon B. Hinckley
   
• Members of the First and Second Quorums of Seventy receive the sealing power which authorizes them to seal husbands to wives, and children to their parents, in any of the church's temples. Members of the other quorums of seventy do not receive this as part of their calling. (Wikipedia and other websites)
   
• January 1964: Members of the First Council of the Seventy were given the sealing power. 
  - https://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/09/the-saga-of-revelation-the-unfolding-role-of-the-seventy?lang=eng
   
• Shortly after I was sustained in General Conference to be a General Authority, I was to be ordained a Seventy by President Thomas S. Monson. You can probably relate to this simple farm boy’s feelings of inadequacy and awe as my wife and I walked into the beautifully paneled board room in the Church Administration Building to meet with the First Presidency. President Monson was very kind. He spent a few minutes sharing personal experiences and counseling with us. Then, before he laid his hands on my head to ordain me a Seventy and confer the sealing power, he looked at me and said, “Elder Jones, you are an uncommon, common man.”
  http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/transcripts/devotionals/2008_06_10_jones.htm
   
• Zera Pulsipher -   In some manner, he exceeded the bounds of his authority in exercising the Sealing Power, and was subsequently released from the Presidency of the Seventy. He was then called before the First Presidency of the Church April 12, 1862. It was there voted, that he be rebaptized, reconfirmed and ordained to the office of a High Priest. 
   

It must have taken one heck of a major loss of revelation and sin for ALL the Apostles and ALL the 70 in the days of Christ to stop ordaining successors and allow the Apostasy to complete.

 

You've shown that the Seventy have the authority to seal, but I don't see any mention made of the Seventy holding priesthood keys or the keys of the sealing power.  Without priesthood keys the Seventy have no authority, on their own, to perform priesthood ordinances or ordain others to the priesthood.  When a priesthood holder performs an ordinance or ordain another to the priesthood it is done under the direction and by the authority of one who holds priesthood keys.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

It must have taken one heck of a major loss of revelation and sin for ALL the Apostles and ALL the 70 in the days of Christ to stop ordaining successors and allow the Apostasy to complete.

I personally believe Peter and Paul died in Rome under circumstances which did not allow the quorum to appoint successors. Those circumstances were probably in the 7 years war. It is possible that Peter and Paul were even captured around Jerusalem during that war. If not, as Jews, they were probably subject to arrest as the Jews had rebelled and were at war with Rome. The same probably held true for the seventy. The seventy almost virtually disappeared from history so to speak of them much involves some speculation except I have found at least one early source besides the Bible which spoke of them - so we know they existed. They too were probably all Jews headquartered in Jerusalem, so to that extent I feel speculating that they died in the seven year war is permissible. Others like John were imprisoned so that there just was no quorum left to be able to pass on their office. This is probably how the Lord knew the Church would eventually go apostate. However, I do not share what seems to be the view that the death of the apostles started the apostasy. I believe the remaining bishops in the church could legitimately confer the office of bishop on new bishops. Nevertheless, the bishops eventually went astray and by the time of the Nicene Creed were adopting unscriptural doctrines.

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Are you sure? I've understood temple sealers to exercise the keys of binding on earth and in heaven. A sealer doesn't have a different priesthood office and I don't think it is merely a calling.

It seems to me that they hold the keys to perform those ordinances, yet still follow the direction of the temple president who follows the direction of the Q12, kind of how a bishop holds keys, yet still follows the direction of the SP, because they have higher keys.

Someone can hold keys yet still be limited in the way they exercise those keys because someone with higher keys can direct them.

My understanding is that temple sealers exercise the sealing power, but that this power is confered upon them by one who holds those keys (or one who has been authorized to do so as per your earlier example).  The priesthood keys remain in the hands (figuritviely) of the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve.  

My understanding of this is based on a conversation with a temple sealer, but I am more than willing to stand corrected if one who has better information wishes to contribute.

[ksfisher]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

"Fewer than 400 years after the death of the Savior, the Church as Jesus organized it was nowhere to be found in the whole world. This began the period known as the Great Apostasy."  400 years presumably pointing to the Nicean Council.

Or the Nephites.

[The Nehor]

The keys were lost. That meant that only lesser keys were left and while they had authority in their sphere they could not appoint their own replacements.

Imagine in our time if all the apostles were dead. The quorum of the Seventy could lead for a time but they cannot pick their own new members. They die out. The Stake Presidents can ordain Melchizedek Priesthood holders but they die out, unable to replace themselves. The Bishops can only ordain to the Aaronic Priesthood. They die out. Individual Priesthood holders survive but without the keys their abilities to perform ordinances are limited. Then they die out.

Now, in the ancient church they chose replacements without authority and that is when it fell apart.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My understanding is that temple sealers exercise the sealing power, but that this power is confered upon them by one who holds those keys (or one who has been authorized to do so as per your earlier example).  The priesthood keys remain in the hands (figuritviely) of the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve.  

My understanding of this is based on a conversation with a temple sealer, but I am more than willing to stand corrected if one who has better information wishes to contribute.

You are right. They are authorized by the person who has the keys to use the sealing power in a specific way in a specific place. If a temple sealer tried to seal the heavens like Elijah did so it would not rain as that power was not delegated to the person holding the keys. 

[ksfisher]

This is an interesting and thought provocing discussion.  Gotta go for a couple hours though.

[mrmarklin]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I've been reading and studying on the many changes made to the ordinances of the gospel since they were first restored (a VERY long list).
Now, leaving aside whether they are correct and authorized or not, my mind went to the Great Apostasy.

Given what we know of the gospel from the restoration, WHAT apostasy occurred?  What was changed?  What happened that caused priesthood authority to be lost?
We state this often in our manuals and lessons:
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-22-the-apostasy?lang=eng

Is the only difference between what happened after the Apostles to the early Church and what has happened to the Church today that we believe the changes we have made were authorized and that their changes weren't? 

What actual actions taken by the early Church caused the Great Apostasy?
Because the ones described in the manual link sound awfully familiar...
 

This is a very difficult question.  According to the Catholic church, there was no apostasy.  Peter was the first Bishop of Rome and passed his keys to the next person in line.  Because Christ made him head of the church, he had the authority to do this.  There is an unbroker succession of Popes to this day.  Go into any Catholic church. and there is a chart (with portraits!) tracing the "line of authority".  Note that in every portrayal of Peter in Catholic art, he is carrying keys.  The Catholic church very much understands the keys of the priesthood.

 

Of course we LDS take a different position in that it's "obvious" to us that the many of the bible's plain truths and ordinances were lost.  And according to the way we understand succession, Peter would have been incapable of passing on the keys without a quorum of apostles being present.  Not to mention references in the bible to the apostasy.  There is nothing in the bible that states that Peter didn't have the right to pass on his keys.  We must rely on modern day revelation to determine this.

Edited February 17, 2017 by mrmarklin
Claity

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

My concern is this quote from the manual sounds like a pretty good description of the Church today, except for the addition of the words "unauthorized".

• “The most important of the internal causes by which the apostasy of the Primitive Church was brought about may be thus summarized: (1) The corrupting of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (2) Unauthorized additions to the prescribed rites of the Church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances. (3) Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 748–49).

So I wanted to pin down exactly how the Church Christ established got to the point where priesthood keys were removed.  We all know what happened after with the establishment of new doctrines and loss of priesthood.
But that didn't happen overnight.  I wanted to know how we got from the Church Christ established to the Church that had no priesthood, indulgences, transubstantiation etc.  What did the journey look like and how did it start?

I think “corrupting the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ” is another exception to the Church today.

I don’t think there would be a record of ongoing corruptions and offenses once the Primitive Church got to the point where priesthood keys were removed. The great and abominable church made sure of that! “And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.” (1 Nephi 13:26). This would make it fairly difficult to compare the new, corrupted order of things with the former.

This is why I think the various references to apostasy in the New Testament were only the beginning, and things got worse against the Lord. If the saints could not turn around from those warnings there would be no hope, and as it turned out that was the case. I suspect the great and abominable church found these accusations useful to retain in the scriptures as a distraction from the more conspiratorial apostasy she orchestrated.

I think the changes we see over the centuries are those that came as a consequence of the keys being taken from the earth, and that these changes took, or were allowed, time. But the actual removal of the keys I believe was rather abrupt, and fairly early, and I think the great and abominable church had a role in this, being responsible for “the blood of the prophets and the saints.”

[mfbukowski]

Neoplatonism made God an abstraction, and everything followed from that. The Trinity instead of Godhead, the sacrament became idolized, Mary became Heavenly Mother. God became a King to make Constantine God.

Other than that, everything was peachy.

[ERayR]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

HOW?

(Sorry for yelling, but we say this and never explain how it happened, or even what caused it.  It's a sunday school answer.)

You know the answer, just think.  Those who received the authority by one who had the authority died or were killed without passing it to someone else and were replaced by those who usurped the titles without receiving the authority.  It didn't happen suddenly.  The ordinances were still performed but retained no effectual.

 

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

HOW?

(Sorry for yelling, but we say this and never explain how it happened, or even what caused it.  It's a sunday school answer.)

You spelled it wrong.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/06/davidhowemotors_2007_4374248.jpeg

You're welcome!

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Neoplatonism made God an abstraction, and everything followed from that. The Trinity instead of Godhead, the sacrament became idolized, Mary became Heavenly Mother. God became a King to make Constantine God.

Other than that, everything was peachy.

"God became a King to make Constantine God." -

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You've shown that the Seventy have the authority to seal, but I don't see any mention made of the Seventy holding priesthood keys or the keys of the sealing power.  Without priesthood keys the Seventy have no authority, on their own, to perform priesthood ordinances or ordain others to the priesthood.  When a priesthood holder performs an ordinance or ordain another to the priesthood it is done under the direction and by the authority of one who holds priesthood keys.

Correct.  But if the 12 and FP were to die/apostatize the keys automatically fall on the 70 without ordination or restoration because they hold the same combined authority as the 12 or FP.  That means they hold sufficient priesthood office to negate the need for restoring the keys again, even if they are under the presiding authority of the 12.  They could literally get together and ordain a new Quorum of the 12 if the current one was destroyed.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

And according to the way we understand succession, Peter would have been incapable of passing on the keys without a quorum of apostles being present. 

There is nothing in the bible that states that Peter didn't have the right to pass on his keys.  We must rely on modern day revelation to determine this.

I'd love some clarification on these two statements.  If Peter were the only apostle living he could pass on the keys by ordaining someone with or without a full quorum.

And where does modern day revelation determine he couldn't do that?

[ksfisher]

30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.  But if the 12 and FP were to die/apostatize the keys automatically fall on the 70 without ordination or restoration because they hold the same combined authority as the 12 or FP.  That means they hold sufficient priesthood office to negate the need for restoring the keys again, even if they are under the presiding authority of the 12.  They could literally get together and ordain a new Quorum of the 12 if the current one was destroyed.

I'm not sure that's the way it works.  I don't think priesthood keys can be restored or conferred by those who do not hold those keys.  Priesthood keys come only through the laying on of hands, they don't "fall" to anyone if someone were to die.  I have also never heard that the holders of a lessor priesthood office could ordain someone to a higher office (Seventies ordaining someone to the office of apostle in your example).

Edited February 17, 2017 by ksfisher