The Vision - D&C 76

[theplains]

I had a question about this article

It said:

“The Vision,” as it became known, contained a sweeping description of what awaited humankind after 
death. It outlined varying degrees of glory divided into three kingdoms as the inheritances for 
the vast majority of God’s children; revealed that consignment to eternal punishment would be the 
fate of only a small few; and explained that the righteous would receive the Father’s fulness: 
“Wherefore as it is writen they are Gods even the sons of God wherefore all things are theres."

Let's assume, for the simplicity of math, that Heavenly Father had a total of 9 billion spirit
children.  From what I have read in LDS theology, 3 billion of them followed Lucifer and became 
angels of the devil (if I used the correct phrase).

When it says above that "consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small 
few," what is a small few?  Only those who once accepted the gospel and turned away from Christ
and followed another religion, but not counting those other 3 billion spirits?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

Looks like you have multiple questions.

First - it is 1/3 part, not 1/3 of God's children that followed Lucifer.  (That implies 3 divisions, not exactly 1 out of 3 people).


Second - Eternal punishment isn't punishment forever in Mormonism.  http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/What_is_"endless_punishment"
 
Third - Yes, those who choose willingly to reject Christ, most especially after having received him, are the ones who will suffer the worst fate.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Edited February 16, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

One fairly conservative estimate has it that around 108 billion people have ever lived, so that we are likely to have around 200 billion total (living and dead) by the Second Coming of Christ.  http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx .  Of those, probably only a small percentage will be exalted and have eternal increase.

 That suggests that around 100 billion spirits followed the Devil in the Pre-Mortal Existence (perhaps less if we follow JLHPROF).

D&C 76 does seem to suggest nearly universal salvation of mankind, as though God's gracious Plan of Happiness was indeed the best, most inclusive, and most practical plan -- unlike the lock-step, anti-free agency nonsense purveyed by the Devil.

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of those, probably only a small percentage will be exalted and have eternal increase.

 

I think there will be much more than we think.  Just the number of kids alone who died before accountability will be many billions.  Clearly not the majority but a good chunk will get it.

Edited February 16, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Meadowchik]

One thing I've learned is that judgment is not as apparent as some might think. My BYU roommate lost her brother during finals. He was an inactive Mormon living with his girlfriend who didn't wake up that morning.

My own sister almost died that same year, to a suicide attempt, so I was deeply affected by the unfairness.  She lost her brother but my sister lived. I already had a testimony that Christ would save my sister whether she died or not. So when people were telling my roomie's mother they were sorry that her son would not be saved to the highest kingdom, I knew they couldn't claim that with any truth.

There's so much more we don't know than what we know. Maybe we know more once we've genuinely adopted the basics into our hearts, minds, and lives: love as Christ loves.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question about this article

It said:

“The Vision,” as it became known, contained a sweeping description of what awaited humankind after 
death. It outlined varying degrees of glory divided into three kingdoms as the inheritances for 
the vast majority of God’s children; revealed that consignment to eternal punishment would be the 
fate of only a small few; and explained that the righteous would receive the Father’s fulness: 
“Wherefore as it is writen they are Gods even the sons of God wherefore all things are theres."

Let's assume, for the simplicity of math, that Heavenly Father had a total of 9 billion spirit
children.  From what I have read in LDS theology, 3 billion of them followed Lucifer and became 
angels of the devil (if I used the correct phrase).

When it says above that "consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small 
few," what is a small few?  Only those who once accepted the gospel and turned away from Christ
and followed another religion, but not counting those other 3 billion spirits?

Thanks,
Jim

I suggest you read D&C 76, which uses the term "innumerable" both for the exalted (verse 67) and the not-so-exalted (verse 109). Verses 43-48 indicate that "endless punishment" is for few (note the use of "all" vs. "except"). I consider "innumerable" to convey "indeterminate" so that we simply do not know, but the Lord will as they roll out (Moses 1:33-37).

[snowflake]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question about this article

It said:

“The Vision,” as it became known, contained a sweeping description of what awaited humankind after 
death. It outlined varying degrees of glory divided into three kingdoms as the inheritances for 
the vast majority of God’s children; revealed that consignment to eternal punishment would be the 
fate of only a small few; and explained that the righteous would receive the Father’s fulness: 
“Wherefore as it is writen they are Gods even the sons of God wherefore all things are theres."

Let's assume, for the simplicity of math, that Heavenly Father had a total of 9 billion spirit
children.  From what I have read in LDS theology, 3 billion of them followed Lucifer and became 
angels of the devil (if I used the correct phrase).

When it says above that "consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small 
few," what is a small few?  Only those who once accepted the gospel and turned away from Christ
and followed another religion, but not counting those other 3 billion spirits?

Thanks,
Jim

Let's assume that Heavenly Father had that many "spirit children", I've always wondered, do we know how many wives he has to create so many? I mean, with all due respect, that is a lot of spirit kids!!!!! How long does it take to create one? I'm assuming spirit babies are created like all other babes, so he is a very busy god!  And is any of this spirit children speak Biblical?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Let's assume that Heavenly Father had that many "spirit children", I've always wondered, do we know how many wives he has to create so many? I mean, with all due respect, that is a lot of spirit kids!!!!! How long does it take to create one? I'm assuming spirit babies are created like all other babes, so he is a very busy god!  And is any of this spirit children speak Biblical?

What part of "eternal" is confusing?
The flaw comes in thinking these spirit children are just sitting around waiting to take bodies.
Spirit children are born, raised, study, live their spirit lives, receive ordinances, attend meetings, make covenants, watch worlds come into creation and progress.

We are talking millions and millions of years of existence, being raised by our Heavenly Father and Mother.
But yes, it is more than likely Heavenly Father has many wives.

[Tacenda]

37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What part of "eternal" is confusing?
The flaw comes in thinking these spirit children are just sitting around waiting to take bodies.
Spirit children are born, raised, study, live their spirit lives, receive ordinances, attend meetings, make covenants, watch worlds come into creation and progress.

We are talking millions and millions of years of existence, being raised by our Heavenly Father and Mother.
But yes, it is more than likely Heavenly Father has many wives.

I wouldn't be so sure.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wouldn't be so sure.

My belief is based on doctrine.
What is your doubt of my belief based on?

[rongo]

39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What part of "eternal" is confusing?
The flaw comes in thinking these spirit children are just sitting around waiting to take bodies.
Spirit children are born, raised, study, live their spirit lives, receive ordinances, attend meetings, make covenants, watch worlds come into creation and progress.

We are talking millions and millions of years of existence, being raised by our Heavenly Father and Mother.
But yes, it is more than likely Heavenly Father has many wives.

Orson Pratt's talk (not sure of the page numbers, but it's the talk right after the JD 1:50 Brigham Young Adam-God talk) launching the official public acknowledgement of plural marriage (before being sent on a mission to the East Coast preaching about it in a ministerial and publicity move) has some very good points. One of them is a focus on D&C 76:24, which says that spirit children are begotten "unto" God (as opposed to "of"). He interprets this to mean that gods have spirit children that are adopted by Elohim as His. He further taught that the Firstborn of each of Elohim's wives is a Savior. 

This makes a lot of sense to me. My wife and I can become gods in the sense of providing spirit children for Jehovah, and this is exaltation. But, I am not a Savior, and won't be an Elohim. I know that many LDS don't like this thought --- they believe that Elohim was a "regular Joe" who is exalted, and that we all can do that, too. To me, the KFD, Sermon in the Grove, and other things like this Pratt talk make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Gods and gods. And that doesn't bother me at all. It makes sense to me. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

My belief is based on doctrine.
What is your doubt of my belief based on?

Doctrine from men. My version doesn't.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Doctrine from men. My version doesn't.

Who is your doctrine from if not men?

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

Orson Pratt's talk (not sure of the page numbers, but it's the talk right after the JD 1:50 Brigham Young Adam-God talk) launching the official public acknowledgement of plural marriage (before being sent on a mission to the East Coast preaching about it in a ministerial and publicity move) has some very good points. One of them is a focus on D&C 76:24, which says that spirit children are begotten "unto" God (as opposed to "of"). He interprets this to mean that gods have spirit children that are adopted by Elohim as His. He further taught that the Firstborn of each of Elohim's wives is a Savior.

This makes a lot of sense to me. My wife and I can become gods in the sense of providing spirit children for Jehovah, and this is exaltation. But, I am not a Savior, and won't be an Elohim. I know that many LDS don't like this thought --- they believe that Elohim was a "regular Joe" who is exalted, and that we all can do that, too. To me, the KFD, Sermon in the Grove, and other things like this Pratt talk make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Gods and gods. And that doesn't bother me at all. It makes sense to me.

Don't agree with the bolded part.  Elohim is the council of the Gods.  Limiting progression I don't agree with.
I believe we can all be Gods, and therefore a member of the Elohim.  We may not all have the calling to be Jehovah.

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Who is your doctrine from if not men?

My mind and heart, I guess. And those two come from a higher being. The middle man doesn't or hasn't earned my trust. But JL, I have no problem with how you believe, and I shouldn't have spouted off about "not being so sure". 

[Darren10]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One fairly conservative estimate has it that around 108 billion people have ever lived, so that we are likely to have around 200 billion total (living and dead) by the Second Coming of Christ.  http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx .  Of those, probably only a small percentage will be exalted and have eternal increase.

 That suggests that around 100 billion spirits followed the Devil in the Pre-Mortal Existence (perhaps less if we follow JLHPROF).

D&C 76 does seem to suggest nearly universal salvation of mankind, as though God's gracious Plan of Happiness was indeed the best, most inclusive, and most practical plan -- unlike the lock-step, anti-free agency nonsense purveyed by the Devil.

"Of those, probably only a small percentage will be exalted and have eternal increase."

 

That's certainly true for those who experience what we may call "the full extent of mortal life' but I do wonder about how much more exalted beings there will be than we'd otherwise expect when we consider times and places of high mortality and still births?

Just something I've wondered.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

"Of those, probably only a small percentage will be exalted and have eternal increase."

 

That's certainly true for those who experience what we may call "the full extent of mortal life' but I do wonder about how much more exalted beings there will be than we'd otherwise expect when we consider times and places of high mortality and still births?

Just something I've wondered.

I agree, Darren, and Carbon Dioxide made the same point above.  Certainly a lot of people.

[Calm]

RFS, Darren, and CD,

That seems to give an advantage to those who die before the age of accountability that those who live do not have.  Unless we assume that those who die somehow had developed enough to not need it and therefore God caused their deaths himself (and that gets problematic for children who die through neglect, corruption, evil), I find this reasoning paradoxical with the teaching that everyone has the same opportunities for exaltation as the other and it will only be personal choice that prevents it.

I think we are missing some fundamental info and this info could very well mean that exaltation is much more common than otherwise.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

21 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question about this article

It said:

“The Vision,” as it became known, contained a sweeping description of what awaited humankind after 
death. It outlined varying degrees of glory divided into three kingdoms as the inheritances for 
the vast majority of God’s children; revealed that consignment to eternal punishment would be the 
fate of only a small few; and explained that the righteous would receive the Father’s fulness: 
“Wherefore as it is writen they are Gods even the sons of God wherefore all things are theres."

Let's assume, for the simplicity of math, that Heavenly Father had a total of 9 billion spirit
children.  From what I have read in LDS theology, 3 billion of them followed Lucifer and became 
angels of the devil (if I used the correct phrase).

When it says above that "consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small 
few," what is a small few?  Only those who once accepted the gospel and turned away from Christ
and followed another religion, but not counting those other 3 billion spirits?

Thanks,
Jim

What if its not literal?  Or should we start looking for the 144,000 now?  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

What if its not literal?  Or should we start looking for the 144,000 now?

Perhaps 144,000 represents a quorum of "those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God"

And what happens when we fill one quorum?  We start another.

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Spirit children are born, raised, study, live their spirit lives, receive ordinances, attend meetings, make covenants, watch worlds come into creation and progress.
 

CFR on that?

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

CFR on that?

Do you really need me to start quote mining on this?  It's so scattered through the teachings of the early Church and scriptures I'd almost rather withdraw the observation, despite its having references...especially since a scholar like yourself already knows them.

Edited February 16, 2017 by JLHPROF

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I agree, Darren, and Carbon Dioxide made the same point above.  Certainly a lot of people.

I was surprised to see this interesting book at Deseret Book, where the author makes the argument that huge numbers of people will no doubt be exalted (including the infant-mortality factor mentioned above):

 

Quote

Many Latter-day Saints worry whether they're capable of reaching the celestial kingdom. Are these anxieties born of a sense of unworthiness, or is it that we just don't think we can "do it all?" Author Alonzo L. Gaskill believes that such pessimism results from misunderstanding God's great plan of happiness and what it is that the Lord actually requires of us. In this hope-filled book, he reviews the teachings of the scriptures and modern prophets to instill in readers a greater sense of God's unfailing love and mercy and of His power and desire to exalt His children. Exaltation may be not only possible but probable!

 

 

[cinepro]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Do you really need me to start quote mining on this?  It's so scattered through the teachings of the early Church and scriptures I'd almost rather withdraw the observation, despite its having references...

If you make an unusual claim and then say "my belief is based on doctrine", then yeah, I'm afraid you should expect to provide some support for that contention.  

What you're describing so far is thin speculation and nothing even close to "doctrine."

Edited February 16, 2017 by cinepro

[Teancum]

It would be a wonderful thing if any of us could really know what God wants, what this God says our potential is, and so on.  To bad this God only really allegedly speaks to a select few that want us to trust them and take their word for it.

such a system and plan is so weak and set up against those who are supposed to pass this grand test, according to LDS theology at least that it boggles the mind that rational people believe it.