Teancum Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: My belief is based on doctrine. What is your doubt of my belief based on? No your belief is based on dogma not doctrine.
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, cinepro said: If you make an unusual claim and then say "my belief is based on doctrine", then yeah, I'm afraid you should expect to provide some support for that contention. What you're describing so far is thin speculation and nothing even close to "doctrine." Spirit children are born https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/o-my-father?lang=enghttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/raisedhttps://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/o-my-father?lang=enghttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ Our place in this world would then be determined by our own advancement or condition in the pre-mortal state, just as our place in our future existence will be determined by what we do here in mortality. - David O. McKay, Home Memories of President David O. McKay, 228–30study D&C 138:56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. live their spirit lives During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability, or the lack of it, but we were also where such progress could be observed. It is reasonable to believe that there was a Church organization there. The heavenly beings were living in a perfectly arranged society. - Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 50–51 receive ordinances Every person knew his place. Priesthood, without any question, had been conferred and the leaders were chosen to officiate. Ordinances pertaining to that pre-existence were required and the love of God prevailed. - Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 50–51 Alma 13: 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. attend meetings When the time arrived for us to be advanced in the scale of our existence and pass through this mundane probation, councils were held and the spirit children were instructed in matters pertaining to conditions in mortal life, and the reason for such an existence. - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:57 make covenantshttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ watch worlds come into creation and progress.http://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ And that's just a few. There are dozens and dozens more but I don't have time to find them right now. Maybe I'll add more later tonight. 4
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Teancum said: No your belief is based on dogma not doctrine. 1
RevTestament Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 On 2/15/2017 at 5:32 PM, JLHPROF said: Looks like you have multiple questions.First - it is 1/3 part, not 1/3 of God's children that followed Lucifer. (That implies 3 divisions, not exactly 1 out of 3 people). I just want to thank you for pointing this out...I guess I never quite read that close enough. Sometimes you are just gooood. While I'm at it: Quote Second - Eternal punishment isn't punishment forever in Mormonism. http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/What_is_"endless_punishment" Third - Yes, those who choose willingly to reject Christ, most especially after having received him, are the ones who will suffer the worst fate. yep. Eternal punishment refers to degree rather than time. They will have another chance after serving their punishment of eternal scope.
RevTestament Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 10 hours ago, snowflake said: Let's assume that Heavenly Father had that many "spirit children", I've always wondered, do we know how many wives he has to create so many? I mean, with all due respect, that is a lot of spirit kids!!!!! How long does it take to create one? I'm assuming spirit babies are created like all other babes, so he is a very busy god! And is any of this spirit children speak Biblical? I am actually sympathetic to your view here. I believe there is no such thing as "spirit babies" in any literal sense. I believe what Joseph Smith taught and what Abraham teaches - that spirits are eternal. They were never created. Spirits simply have always been. So in that sense it really is not possible to have "spirit children." We are God's spirit children because we are born spiritually when we follow him. It is a spiritual thing and not any literal thing.
RevTestament Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 On 2/15/2017 at 5:12 PM, theplains said: I had a question about this article It said: “The Vision,” as it became known, contained a sweeping description of what awaited humankind after death. It outlined varying degrees of glory divided into three kingdoms as the inheritances for the vast majority of God’s children; revealed that consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small few; and explained that the righteous would receive the Father’s fulness: “Wherefore as it is writen they are Gods even the sons of God wherefore all things are theres." Let's assume, for the simplicity of math, that Heavenly Father had a total of 9 billion spirit children. From what I have read in LDS theology, 3 billion of them followed Lucifer and became angels of the devil (if I used the correct phrase). When it says above that "consignment to eternal punishment would be the fate of only a small few," what is a small few? Only those who once accepted the gospel and turned away from Christ and followed another religion, but not counting those other 3 billion spirits? Thanks, Jim This involves too much speculation to really accurately answer. Nevertheless, I will say that after the dead receive punishment in hell and are brought before the judgment and the presence of Jesus, and whatever spirit they feel from Him, it is hard to believe that they will still reject him and refuse to repent. In other words, I believe most will repent upon being resurrected and feeling the power of His presence. This is much different from not knowing Him in the world. And this is because of His goodness and His desire that they repent and receive ultimate salvation - even it if is only in the telestial world.
Darren10 Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Calm said: RFS, Darren, and CD, That seems to give an advantage to those who die before the age of accountability that those who live do not have. Unless we assume that those who die somehow had developed enough to not need it and therefore God caused their deaths himself (and that gets problematic for children who die through neglect, corruption, evil), I find this reasoning paradoxical with the teaching that everyone has the same opportunities for exaltation as the other and it will only be personal choice that prevents it. I think we are missing some fundamental info and this info could very well mean that exaltation is much more common than otherwise. I agree Calm. My view here is that temporal beings cannot fully understand eternal matters. I opine that God's omniscience is at play here. He uses it in such a way that He knows what these children would have done had they had the opportunity of full mortality and he uses His omniscience in a manner as to not create predestination. Lot's of faith goes into my opinion because, despite what many think, I a only a temporal being.
Darren10 Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I agree, Darren, and Carbon Dioxide made the same point above. Certainly a lot of people. Haha, I just now caught up on the conversation. Yes, CO2 does make that same point.
Darren10 Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 16 hours ago, Meadowchik said: One thing I've learned is that judgment is not as apparent as some might think. My BYU roommate lost her brother during finals. He was an inactive Mormon living with his girlfriend who didn't wake up that morning. My own sister almost died that same year, to a suicide attempt, so I was deeply affected by the unfairness. She lost her brother but my sister lived. I already had a testimony that Christ would save my sister whether she died or not. So when people were telling my roomie's mother they were sorry that her son would not be saved to the highest kingdom, I knew they couldn't claim that with any truth. There's so much more we don't know than what we know. Maybe we know more once we've genuinely adopted the basics into our hearts, minds, and lives: love as Christ loves. Excellent point. many years ago the sister of a member in our singles branch committed suicide. The branch held the funeral services at the chapel and the holy Spirit of the sister being at peace was clear. It was also clear that there is no way to make an eternal judgment on her. We, of course, do not condone suicide, and actively preach against it. We should preach that it is wrong but express great empathy for those tempted to use it and unfortunately do use it. There' only three members of the Godhead and anyone outside that group is unqualified to make an eternal judgment on these people. I am very glad your sister made it through. As for the inactives / "sinful" people I think the same fundamental truths apply. Of course we preach the goodness of church activity and warn against being unchaste but when it comes to eternal judgment, no mortal knows all the conditions behind another person's life nor the influences behind their choices. Thanks for sharing your experience here. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 7 hours ago, cinepro said: I was surprised to see this interesting book at Deseret Book, where the author makes the argument that huge numbers of people will no doubt be exalted (including the infant-mortality factor mentioned above):............................... We all like to be hopeful, but I am not sure what "huge numbers" might mean. Perhaps more than we thought at first glance? The exalted might still be comparatively few. However, maybe we should take specific account of what Professor Gaskill says in his book -- which I have not read.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: This involves too much speculation to really accurately answer. Nevertheless, I will say that after the dead receive punishment in hell and are brought before the judgment and the presence of Jesus, and whatever spirit they feel from Him, it is hard to believe that they will still reject him and refuse to repent. In other words, I believe most will repent upon being resurrected and feeling the power of His presence. This is much different from not knowing Him in the world. And this is because of His goodness and His desire that they repent and receive ultimate salvation - even it if is only in the telestial world. It's called free agency. The Devil and his angels believe in the Father and the Son, yet they rejected him. They had light and knowledge, yet refused to obey. James 2:19
RevTestament Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: It's called free agency. The Devil and his angels believe in the Father and the Son, yet they rejected him. They had light and knowledge, yet refused to obey. James 2:19 True, but I believe most will not. Most will be saved. Jesus said that all those given to Him would be saved except for the sons of perdition. But this is why I said my answer is speculative, We really do not know much if anything about it.
Meadowchik Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Darren10 said: Excellent point. many years ago the sister of a member in our singles branch committed suicide. The branch held the funeral services at the chapel and the holy Spirit of the sister being at peace was clear. It was also clear that there is no way to make an eternal judgment on her. We, of course, do not condone suicide, and actively preach against it. We should preach that it is wrong but express great empathy for those tempted to use it and unfortunately do use it. There' only three members of the Godhead and anyone outside that group is unqualified to make an eternal judgment on these people. I am very glad your sister made it through. As for the inactives / "sinful" people I think the same fundamental truths apply. Of course we preach the goodness of church activity and warn against being unchaste but when it comes to eternal judgment, no mortal knows all the conditions behind another person's life nor the influences behind their choices. Thanks for sharing your experience here. Thank you for sharing that story as well. It is good to know others have felt similar spiritual witnesses!
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, RevTestament said: True, but I believe most will not. Most will be saved. Jesus said that all those given to Him would be saved except for the sons of perdition. But this is why I said my answer is speculative, We really do not know much if anything about it. I was referring only to the Sons of Perdition (Bnei 'Abaddon = γιοι της απώλειας).
Calm Posted February 17, 2017 Posted February 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: It's called free agency. The Devil and his angels believe in the Father and the Son, yet they rejected him. They had light and knowledge, yet refused to obey. James 2:19 And those of us on earth have demonstrated a willingness to accept him at least once before.
cinepro Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 On 2/16/2017 at 4:03 PM, JLHPROF said: Spirit children are born https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/o-my-father?lang=enghttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/raisedhttps://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/o-my-father?lang=enghttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ Our place in this world would then be determined by our own advancement or condition in the pre-mortal state, just as our place in our future existence will be determined by what we do here in mortality. - David O. McKay, Home Memories of President David O. McKay, 228–30study D&C 138:56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. live their spirit lives During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability, or the lack of it, but we were also where such progress could be observed. It is reasonable to believe that there was a Church organization there. The heavenly beings were living in a perfectly arranged society. - Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 50–51 receive ordinances Every person knew his place. Priesthood, without any question, had been conferred and the leaders were chosen to officiate. Ordinances pertaining to that pre-existence were required and the love of God prevailed. - Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 50–51 Alma 13: 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. attend meetings When the time arrived for us to be advanced in the scale of our existence and pass through this mundane probation, councils were held and the spirit children were instructed in matters pertaining to conditions in mortal life, and the reason for such an existence. - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:57 make covenantshttp://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ watch worlds come into creation and progress.http://www.ldswomenofgod.com/2010/07/24/the-origin-and-destiny-of-woman/ And that's just a few. There are dozens and dozens more but I don't have time to find them right now. Maybe I'll add more later tonight. Blog posts and out of print (and context) quotes from past Church leaders hardly establish "doctrine." It's certainly an interesting idea, but it's a huge stretch to classify it as anything beyond conjecture and speculation.
theplains Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 On 16/02/2017 at 11:53 AM, JLHPROF said: But yes, it is more than likely Heavenly Father has many wives. Why is that? Jim
theplains Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 On 16/02/2017 at 8:21 PM, RevTestament said: We are God's spirit children because we are born spiritually when we follow him. It is a spiritual thing and not any literal thing. So Jesus is not the first spirit child of Heavenly Parents as the LDS Church teaches? Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, theplains said: Why is that? Jim Because like it or not in Mormonism there is an ordinance of plural marriage and D&C 132 refers to it as a law. I don't believe that we can live a law and receive an ordinance that God has not.
theplains Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Because like it or not in Mormonism there is an ordinance of plural marriage and D&C 132 refers to it as a law. I don't believe that we can live a law and receive an ordinance that God has not. Why was it supposed that Heavenly Father would need 'many' wives? Jim
carbon dioxide Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) On 2/16/2017 at 3:06 PM, Calm said: RFS, Darren, and CD, That seems to give an advantage to those who die before the age of accountability that those who live do not have. Unless we assume that those who die somehow had developed enough to not need it and therefore God caused their deaths himself (and that gets problematic for children who die through neglect, corruption, evil), I find this reasoning paradoxical with the teaching that everyone has the same opportunities for exaltation as the other and it will only be personal choice that prevents it. I think we are missing some fundamental info and this info could very well mean that exaltation is much more common than otherwise. To die innocent or without accountability to sin is a clear advantage. Not just to those who die young but also those who have mental deficiency. However those who are not in this group still can repent and can choose to do the right thing. The scriptures say that all those who would have received the gospel and lived it if they had the chance offered to them in mortality will be heirs in the Celestial Kingdom. God's plan has lots of technicalities that we don't understand completely but everything in the end will turn out to be just and fair to everyone. D&C 76 gives us pretty good indications generally speaking one where different types of people go but we should reserve judgement on individual cases. I can say that a liar, thief, immoral person is most likely to go the Telestial Kingdom but under the Lords system of justice, there may be exceptions given based on their individual circumstances. Edited February 18, 2017 by carbon dioxide
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) "The scriptures say that all those who would have received the gospel and lived it if they had the chance offered to them in mortality will be heirs in the Celestial Kingdom." I think the issue is what of those who die young that wouldn't have/don't accepted the Gospel. Are they forced to be part of the Celestial Kingdom because of their early death? Plus we teach that it isn't just potential desire that gets people to eternal life, but actual desire. Everyone is eventually taught the Gospel and given the chance to live the Gospel/choose Christ as their Saviour. God doesn't make that decision for them based on personality or whatever. Edited February 19, 2017 by Calm
RevTestament Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, theplains said: So Jesus is not the first spirit child of Heavenly Parents as the LDS Church teaches? Thanks, Jim He is the first/"only begotten" Son. He is our "fellow" according to the scriptures. We are His brothers and sisters. And BTW, Luke calls Him the son of the highest/Most High. He is not El Elyon, the Most High El, and the doctrine of the trinity fails there too. Edited February 19, 2017 by RevTestament
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 9 hours ago, theplains said: Why was it supposed that Heavenly Father would need 'many' wives? No idea other than to fulfill a law. Beyond that we have no information.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 9 hours ago, theplains said: So Jesus is not the first spirit child of Heavenly Parents as the LDS Church teaches? Thanks, Jim Of course he is. What would indicate otherwise?
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