rongo Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: I am aware of the reddit source posted above...but NO that was not my original source...it was from someone close to this story. Oh! I'll bet it's the anonymous guy who posted this on reddit!
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: CFR that: 1. He was assigned and did not apply for the position as described in the ROTC instructor recruitment site. 2. He has the right to reject the employment conditions in the institution where he is seeking employment. 3. He has authority to shut down an existing program and move it to a more comfortable place. The last point is what most makes the story sound hinky to me. A new hire shows up for work, decides he doesn't like the requirements, so instead of merely quitting and looking for another job, he shuts down the program and moves it elsewhere? It's possible, I suppose. Wackier things have happened. But for every minute that goes by with nothing about it showing up on Google, my doubt grows stronger. Edited January 24, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: CFR that real people fell for the story in the first place. It is just so absurd. I spent a little time there in the ROTC building with law school classmates billeted there and was introduced around. Commanding officers and NCOs there volunteer for spots when they open up. It is a sort of retirement short of retirement. I suppose that there might be somebody there who has gone off the rails in protest over alcohol, but to appear in Reddit? I don't see it, but I am waiting for Mr. JCake to deny he got his source from Reddit. Is this CFR directed at me? If so, I'm not sure what I have to document. It seems like a lot of real people here have fallen for it.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Will you be back to do so if it doesn't? Of course...but I know I won't have to...since this is a true story...I trust my source completely
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 54 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: They've issues wavers to the honor code for past non Mormon faculty members in the past...why not now...seems like a they could have avoided all of this OK, i was willing to ignore this the first half-dozen times I saw it, but it's starting to bug me. The word is waiver -- spelled with an i -- not "waver."
HappyJackWagon Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: CFR that: 1. He was assigned and did not apply for the position as described in the ROTC instructor recruitment site. 2. He has the right to reject the employment conditions in the institution where he is seeking employment. 3. He has authority to shut down an existing program and move it to a more comfortable place. 4. That he can shut down an existing and highly successful and reputable program for purely personal reasons. This entire thread is pure speculation. There is no reference for any of this stuff. 1- It's an assumption. 2- It's an assumption. 3- It's an assumption. 4- It's an assumption Calling for a CFR on what is clearly a speculative thread is weak. Edited January 24, 2017 by HappyJackWagon 1
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK, i was willing to ignore this the first half-dozen times I saw it, but it's starting to bug me. The word is waiver -- spelled with an i -- not "waver." I think your wrong, alright. "Waver" means to equivocate. "Waiver" means a document waving the flag or some other document. I'm farely sure about that. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I am aware of the reddit source posted above...but NO that was not my original source...it was from someone close to this story. Well, whatever it is it appears not to have happened yet...https://marriottschool.byu.edu/army/about/cadre Additionally, the current commander/professor of military science and both recruiters and cadet commander all appear to actually be LDS. So no idea what commander this rumor is referring to. Edited January 24, 2017 by JLHPROF
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK, i was willing to ignore this the first half-dozen times I saw it, but it's starting to bug me. The word is waiver -- spelled with an i -- not "waver." haha...I stand corrected Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I think your wrong, alright. "Waver" means to equivocate. "Waiver" means a document waving the flag or some other document. I'm farely sure about that. oops spoke too soon...so I was correct using waver right?
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This entire thread is pure speculation. There is no reference for any of this stuff. I take your CFR and raise you by 4 CFR's. 1- I never said that. CFR that I did. 2- I never said that. CFR that I did. 3- I never said that. CFR that I did. 4- I never said that. CFR that I did. Please don't call for a CFR on things I never said. Come on, man. Bad form. Quote I'm pretty surprised by the majority of responses on this thread. This seems to be a bigger loss for BYU than it is for ROTC/DoD. Let's review... 1-Non-member is assigned by the Dept. of Defense to instruct ROTC at BYU. He did not seek to teach or attend BYU. [CFR: He was assigned and did not apply for the position as described in the ROTC instructor recruitment site.] 2-Non-member honestly/honorably states he is unwilling to abide by religious rules and refuses to sign the honor code. [He has the right to reject the employment conditions in the institution where he is seeking employment.] 3-Non-member moves ROTC off of BYU campus so he can fulfill his job duties unencumbered by BYU restrictions/requirements. [He has authority to shut down an existing program and move it to a more comfortable place.] It sounds to me like he did things the right way. If BYU cares about having the ROTC on campus they can make an honor code exception. If they don't care, then the ROTC can leave campus and there is no harm. Your turn. Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: 1-Non-member is assigned by the Dept. of Defense to instruct ROTC at BYU. He did not seek to teach or attend BYU. 2-Non-member honestly/honorably states he is unwilling to abide by religious rules and refuses to sign the honor code 3-Non-member moves ROTC off of BYU campus so he can fulfill his job duties unencumbered by BYU restrictions/requirements. Still not finding any evidence of a non-member instructor. The commanding instructor is a member.
california boy Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I know that much of what is being commented on is pure speculation. I find it interesting that most Mormons think the problem with signing the Honor Code must be about the WoW. But what if it isn't that at all? What if the officer is gay and is legally married? Does the church really expect him to divorce his spouse just so he can accept this "sought out position" Perhaps that is why BYU is not willing to sign a waiver for this instructor. We all know how freaked out the church is about gay marriage. And how about the Department of Defense? Should they be expected to discriminate against officers competing for a promotion just because they are gay? For some reason, I just don't see them willing to do this. Those that think the honorable thing for this officer to do is to bow to the discrimination practices of BYU in order to maintain his honor are delusional in my opinion. Standing up against discrimination is never a bad position in my opinion. Just because BYU is willing to discriminate against gay couples, doesn't mean the Department of Defense is willing to discriminate. Like I said, this is just speculation. But if this is the case, I see no compromise from either side. The only solution is to move the ROTC program off of BYU campus.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 As to the CFR: This is all I have to go on... Colonel Timothy J. Hogan is a United States Air Force Officer and the new ROTC Commander for both BYU and UVU. After graduating from the Air Force Academy in 1989, Hogan went to pilot training in Del Rio, Texas, and finished No.4 in his class. He flew a Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, a close-air support attack aircraft, for twenty years and has more than one thousand hours of combat experience in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Hogan is a graduate and former instructor of the United States Fighter Weapons School. He has held various leadership positions, including squadron commander, vice wing commander, and United States Air Forces Europe and Africa Inspector General. Marriott School: What brought you to BYU? Col. Timothy J. Hogan: In the Air Force it is necessary to compete for command-level jobs, so I submitted an application for the ROTC commander position. It is an amazing opportunity being able to return to the ROTC and to teach the next generation of leaders. It is a very sought-after job; there were seven schools hiring—including BYU—and applications were narrowed down to fourteen. I was selected for BYU, and I am very humbled and blessed to be here. It appears that he both submitted an application and was "Selected" AKA assigned to BYU on of 7 possible schools he could have been assigned to.
HappyJackWagon Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Your turn. I corrected my previous post before you posted this. Sorry for the mix up. Still- lame CFR as we were basing a discussion around a speculative story that included the ideas I shared.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Well, whatever it is it appears not to have happened yet...https://marriottschool.byu.edu/army/about/cadre Additionally, the current commander/professor of military science and both recruiters all appear to actually be LDS. So no idea who this rumor is referring to. Where does it say that the current commander Col. Timothy J. Hogan is LDS
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This entire thread is pure speculation. There is no reference for any of this stuff. 1- It's an assumption. 2- It's an assumption. 3- It's an assumption. 4- It's an assumption Calling for a CFR on what is clearly a speculative thread is weak. You made clear and definitive assertions for which I legitimately called for references. Changing it now to assumptions? Are you retracting those assertions? I have repeatedly commented that this is probably fake news, but many here think it's real, and your post put you squarely on that side. Please explain how responding to them (and you) is weak and bad form. I have gone the extra mile in trying to provide factual information on ROTC instructors and how they get their positions. For this you choose to insult me? Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I think your wrong, alright. "Waver" means to equivocate. "Waiver" means a document waving the flag or some other document. I'm farely sure about that. 10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: haha...I stand corrected 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: oops spoke too soon...so I was correct using waver right? Not unless you mean something different than what I thought. Waiver is "the act of choosing not to use or require something that you are allowed to have or that is usually required" (online dictionary definition). Isn't that what you meant? If so, then Bob misunderstood you.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I think your wrong, alright. "Waver" means to equivocate. "Waiver" means a document waving the flag or some other document. I'm farely sure about that. Look again at what Johnnie Cake was saying. I think you misunderstood him. He was talking about BYU choosing not to require something (compliance with the honor code) that normally would be required. Isn't that what waiver means? By the way, you misspelled fairly. It's not "farely."
california boy Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The US Military is within its rights to exclude any article of clothing, jewelry, or impose grooming standards for use by its members they want. However as LDS are over-represented in the military it makes little sense to refuse their service. I don't disagree with you. I also think it makes little sense to not allow a non member instructor his cup of coffee in the morning.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Well, whatever it is it appears not to have happened yet...https://marriottschool.byu.edu/army/about/cadre Additionally, the current commander/professor of military science and both recruiters and cadet commander all appear to actually be LDS. So no idea what commander this rumor is referring to. Your link is to the Army ROTC at BYU. This discussion is about the Air Force ROTC.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Just now, california boy said: I don't disagree with you. I also think it makes little sense to not allow a non member instructor his cup of coffee in the morning. He is allowed his cup of coffee -- but not while working for BYU. All choices have consequences.
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, california boy said: I don't disagree with you. I also think it makes little sense to not allow a non member instructor his cup of coffee in the morning. Unless he agreed to forego the java as a condition of employment.
bsjkki Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: Where does it say that the current commander Col. Timothy J. Hogan is LDS The other two new hires appear to have ties to Utah and could be LDS but I dont see in my research, any signs Col. Hogan is LDS. But, as stated, this whole thread is speculation. The evidence I have seen is: 1. The word of the original poster that his source is valid. 2. Two posted text messages found on Reddit. One of which is from BYU's ROTC division and another text in an anonymous exchange asking and receiving confirmation of this rumor. 3. BYU did get a new commander in September. Some (Reddit) have even speculated BYU might welcome the change and want the space. They did wish to move a memorial in the Marriott Center and received push back from the ROTC. https://www.google.com/amp/universe.byu.edu/2016/11/18/byusas-proposal-to-relocate-memorial-hall-is-an-ongoing-discussion/amp/ 2
california boy Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Unless he agreed to forego the java as a condition of employment. More speculation of course. And what if he is gay? Should he forgo his marriage? 1
Recommended Posts