BYU is Losing its ROTC...because they refuse to Compromise on Honor Code

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

YOUR opportunity to Scoop the Trib Scott...make a phone call, confirm the story and get it in tomorrows DesNews

I thought you said the news would already be widespread by now.

True, we  haven't reached the end of the day yet. If we do and there's still nothing, how long do you think it will be before this hits the mainstream media?

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Johnnie Cake]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I do not need to understand anything here. Drinking a beer is not evil, wrong, or unusual. Mormons and others commit themselves to different behavior. So what? I detect some projection here.

It's a matter of respect for other people. The military is all about respect, even for their enemy soldiers. 

Part of my son's training to fight in Afghanistan included information on local customs and mores and strict commands not to violate or challenge them. There were heavy restrictions placed on alcohol consumption which is abhorred by people in the region. The soldiers were expected to abide the regulations or face discipline. He had an awful time restraining himself when he encountered so-called allies who used little boys for gratification and comfort. 

If the DOD bureaucrats can tolerate that, then it's not a great leap fot them and this (fictitious?) officer to respect BYU's Honor Code.

BYU Agrees with you...

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

So exactly which parts of the honor code (below) are you suggesting non-LDS faculty should be allowed to dismiss off campus?

 

All of them that don't directly impact their job or their students (so yes, role model standards are a concern for people in positions of authority).

How about the attending Church rule?  Does that mean an atheist cannot be the ROTC instructor at BYU?
 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, but they aren't asking this non-member employee to follow their rules in their house.
They are asking him to sign a contract that he will follow their rules in his own house.  That's a bit of an overreach.

If you worked in a Jewish company and they had a prohibition on non-Kosher food would you follow it?  Of course.
Would you sign a contract forbidding you to eat bacon in the privacy of your own home because they don't approve of it?  I don't know many people that would.
 

Why would I be so arrogant as to expect them to change their standards so I could take their money to buy my bacon?

If that was their policy, why would I stick it in their eye instead of finding a job where it wan't an issue?

[Johnnie Cake]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought you said the news would already be widespread by now.

True, we  haven't reached the end of the day yet. If we do and there's still nothing, how long do you think it will be before this hits the mainstream media?

 

Give it time...but perhaps this story isn't Trib news worthy...remember I'm not Rupert Murdock...I have no control over the medias timeline...I just found the information interesting enough to share here...

Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU Agrees with you...

That's all you got?

[Buckeye]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I do not need to understand anything here. Drinking a beer is not evil, wrong, or unusual. Mormons and others commit themselves to different behavior. So what? I detect some projection here.

It's a matter of respect for other people. The military is all about respect, even for their enemy soldiers. 

Part of my son's training to fight in Afghanistan included information on local customs and mores and strict commands not to violate or challenge them. There were heavy restrictions placed on alcohol consumption which is abhorred by people in the region. The soldiers were expected to abide the regulations or face discipline. He had an awful time restraining himself when he encountered so-called allies who used little boys for gratification and comfort. 

If the DOD bureaucrats can tolerate that, then it's not a great leap fot them and this (fictitious?) officer to respect BYU's Honor Code.

What do you think of JLHPROF's analogy to kosher food? Should an ROTC officer at Yeshiva be required to abide by kosher restrictions even at home?

In this case, I do think it would be pretty easy to find military personnel who are willing to abide by the honor code. It's not like there's not tons of church members in the military. But, it's their decision, just like it's BYU's decision to not stock diet coke on campus.

[Buckeye]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought you said the news would already be widespread by now.

True, we  haven't reached the end of the day yet. If we do and there's still nothing, how long do you think it will be before this hits the mainstream media?

 

It would be pretty easy for a journalist to call BYU or the ROTC and ask.

[Buckeye]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

All of them that don't directly impact their job or their students (so yes, role model standards are a concern for people in positions of authority).

How about the attending Church rule?  Does that mean an atheist cannot be the ROTC instructor at BYU?
 

That's not very clear. Do you consider a non-LDS faculty's violations of the WoW at his own home to impact his role modeling? How about chastity? Dress and grooming? The honor code points are pretty clear. It shouldn't be that hard to set out which ones are required for non-LDS faculty off campus and which ones are not. 

As for attending church, the honor code only says that non-LDS are "encouraged to participate in services of their preferred religion." I can't find anything about atheist or a requirement to profess a belief in God. The honor code is not directed to statements of belief, it's directed to actions. So while I've never heard of one, it would seem that an atheist could attend.

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why would I be so arrogant as to expect them to change their standards so I could take their money to buy my bacon?

If that was their policy, why would I stick it in their eye instead of finding a job where it wan't an issue?

Sure, but were talking about the ROTC here, not just a single officer. So to use your analogy, what's the problem with the ROTC finding another location where the WoW isn't an issue? BYU doesn't have a right to an ROTC chapter.

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I know lots of military officers who would balk at this kind of a restriction. I probably would balk at having to sign the BYU honor code as an officer assigned to the school and I am LDS.

A person with honor would gracefully withdraw rather than destroy the ROTC program, thus bringing harm to both the Armed Services and BYU. I could not respect an officer who would be so selfish.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

It would be pretty easy for a journalist to call BYU or the ROTC and ask.

In theory, 'twould be pretty easy for anybody to do it.

Which is why I wonder why this hasn't gotten beyond the status of unconfirmed rumor yet -- assuming it's accurate, that is.

 

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Why would I be so arrogant as to expect them to change their standards so I could take their money to buy my bacon?

If that was their policy, why would I stick it in their eye instead of finding a job where it wan't an issue?

Because what we do in our own home is no business of our workplace unless there can be shown to be a direct impact on that workplace.
Basic HR non-discrimination law prohibits even asking questions in interviews about personal things that have no bearing on the job.  That's HR 101.

Unless what I choose to eat or drink or whether I attend Church directly effects my work making it a bona fide job requirement
For example, you cannot discriminate in a job based on looks.  Unless of course you are hiring a model.
 

 

[thesometimesaint]

34 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It was a joke

OK.

[Johnnie Cake]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I do not need to understand anything here. Drinking a beer is not evil, wrong, or unusual. Mormons and others commit themselves to different behavior. So what? I detect some projection here.

It's a matter of respect for other people. The military is all about respect, even for their enemy soldiers. 

Part of my son's training to fight in Afghanistan included information on local customs and mores and strict commands not to violate or challenge them. There were heavy restrictions placed on alcohol consumption which is abhorred by people in the region. The soldiers were expected to abide the regulations or face discipline. He had an awful time restraining himself when he encountered so-called allies who used little boys for gratification and comfort. 

If the DOD bureaucrats can tolerate that, then it's not a great leap fot them and this (fictitious?) officer to respect BYU's Honor Code.

No I have more...

1st: Thank your son for all of us for his service to our country...I for one sincerely appreciate his sacrifice and service.

2nd: I don't know this commander...but I'd take a guess that he has respect for the Y...but it is a lot to ask a grown man who was "assigned" to oversee the ROTC program at the Y and did not choose this assignment to alter his lifestyle to conform to honor code at an institution he merely works at and not for. Obviously the Y is in this situation because it did not feel, for what ever reasons, that it could wave its honor code for this man...that is its right...he on the other hand obviously did not want to compromise his lifestyle to conform to a standard he did not feel he could bend on...thus the impasse.

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Give it time...but perhaps this story isn't Trib news worthy...remember I'm not Rupert Murdock...I have no control over the medias timeline...I just found the information interesting enough to share here...

According to your source(s), when is this expected to transpire? The Air Force ROTC at BYU still has this website up with a catalog of courses.

Edited to add:

It seems to be a joint program that already includes UVU. So I'm not sure what would change. Would it no longer be offered to students enrolled at BYU?

Edited January 24, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Sure, but were talking about the ROTC here, not just a single officer. So to use your analogy, what's the problem with the ROTC finding another location where the WoW isn't an issue? BYU doesn't have a right to an ROTC chapter.

The military is steeped in tradition and rightly so. Rather than force an officer who has personal requirements for his adult beverage consumption on BYU and destroy a highly respected ROTC program, they could easily find a guy for whom it is not an issue. There are lots of middle officers out there looking for a career change.

if this is an issue, which I doubt, it was made so by either ignorant or divisive DOD bureaucrats.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

That's not very clear. Do you consider a non-LDS faculty's violations of the WoW at his own home to impact his role modeling? How about chastity? Dress and grooming? The honor code points are pretty clear. It shouldn't be that hard to set out which ones are required for non-LDS faculty off campus and which ones are not.

As for attending church, the honor code only says that non-LDS are "encouraged to participate in services of their preferred religion." I can't find anything about atheist or a requirement to profess a belief in God. The honor code is not directed to statements of belief, it's directed to actions. So while I've never heard of one, it would seem that an atheist could attend.

 

Yes, I would consider personal chastity to be of an impact to your students.  There was a story recently of a junior high teacher who moonlighted as an adult-film actress.  I do see a potential impact there, although it may not be obvious.  If you are "living in sin" with someone can that have an impact on your students?  If known about yes, I'd say there could be a role model issue.

Does my having a cup of coffee before breakfast make ANY difference to my students?  Does whether I sit home on Sunday or go to Church?  The honor code specifically requires attendance at Church meetings.

[Calm]

I think the man is honorable to be open about his refusal to abide by the honor code instead of just hiding the behavior or not talking about it.

I think the DoD screwed up by not including this requirement for those they assign to BYU.  As pointed out above, they can be quite sensitive to cultural/religious standards when it is important to them.  In my opinion, they have demonstrated they neither respect BYU or their officer by putting both of them into this conflict and refusing to act in a way that the conflict could be resolved without anyone have to compromise.

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A person with honor would gracefully withdraw rather than destroy the ROTC program, thus bringing harm to both the Armed Services and BYU. I could not respect an officer who would be so selfish.

Or BYU could gracefully grant a waver for this officer to not be subject to the honor code as has been done in the past to accommodate non-Mormon instructors on campus rather than destroy the ROTC program,thus bringing harm to both the Armed Services and BYU. I could not respect an institution who would be so selfish.

[Bernard Gui]

59 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's what the honor code is. It's not just about conduct at school, it's about conduct everywhere in life.

I know a woman who was taking online classes from BYU-I who was concerned about signing the honor code because it had a restriction on swearing. While I'm not a fan of swearing, it's pretty ridiculous that a grown woman, living states away, taking online classes would have to sign an honor code promising not to swear.

ETA- From BYU honor code

No one forced her to take BYU classes. There are plenty of colleges with online classes that don't care what you do at home. She might be more comfortable with one of them. 

[Johnnie Cake]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The military is steeped in tradition and rightly so. Rather than force an officer who doesn't have requirements for his adult beverage consumption on BYU and destroy a highly respected ROTC program, they could easily find a guy for whom it is not an issue. There are lots of middle officers out there looking for a career change.

if this is an issue, which I doubt, it was made so by either ignorant or divisive DOD bureaucrats.

I agree...the DoD could have capitulated...we don't know why they chose to stand and make this a fight...but they obviously didn't want to back down...

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, rongo said:

I would like some firm verification from somebody (doesn't have to be you) that the honor code requires non-LDS faculty (obviously adults) to abide by all of the honor code requirements. Are they allowed out after 11:00 PM?  

That's why it's called an Honor Code. If you make the commitment, you are expected to honor it even when no one is watching. Otherwise there is no honor.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the man is honorable to be open about his refusal to abide by the honor code instead of just hiding the behavior or not talking about it.

I think the DoD screwed up by not including this requirement for those they assign to BYU.  As pointed out above, they can be quite sensitive to cultural/religious standards when it is important to them.  In my opinion, they have demonstrated they neither respect BYU or their officer by putting both of them into this conflict and refusing to act in a way that the conflict could be resolved without anyone have to compromise.

Its remarkable that this hasn't been an issue in the 60 years that ROTC has been on campus...I'm guessing that in the past DoD has merely accommodated the Y's unique requirements ...don't know what changed but someone got into a pissing war and neither wanted to back down

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

From the honor code instructors are required to sign:

• By accepting appointment on the faculty, continuing in employment, or continuing class enrollment, individuals evidence their commitment to observe the Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees "at all times and…in all places"
• seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will
• Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
• Participate regularly in church services

And finally:

• Violations of these standards may be reported to the Honor Code Office, 4440 WSC, (801) 422-2847, or the Off-Campus Housing Office, (801) 422-1513.

 

"Hey, that non-member professor gave me a bad grade.  Oh look, there he is having a coffee in a local café on his Sunday off and I don't think he attends Church either.  I'm going to report this honor code violation and get him fired."

Total overreach.
Violations of the honor code that occur off-campus should be no business of the school for non-members and for members it should be between them and their bishop.

 

 

Violating an honor code says more about the violator than about the code and those who support it. Where is the honor in violating a code you agreed to keep?