Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Why should BYU be expected to do this? BYU rightfully and legally sets the standards for employment in their institutions. Accommodating a practicing Jew or Catholic for religious reasons is not equivalent to accommodating a faculty member who wants to sip a brew in his easy chair after a hard day on campus. They've issues wavers to the honor code for past non Mormon faculty members in the past...why not now...seems like a they could have avoided all of this
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: Not necessarily since he was vetted and chosen by the DoD and not BYU. And the DOD was not aware of employment requirements at BYU? If they were aware, shame on them. If they were unaware, they were incompetent. Their own instructions specify that ROTC employees are also employees of the school/college/university and subject to regulations of those institutions. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Why should BYU be expected to do this? BYU rightfully and legally sets the standards for employment in their institutions. Accommodating a practicing Jew or Catholic for religious reasons is not equivalent to accommodating a faculty member who wants to sip a brew in his easy chair after a hard day on campus. They don't and they didn't and now they'll reap the concequences Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I think this is a false story. It appears to have its origins in anonymous Reddit posts. Having known several people billeted in ROTC slots at BYU, I would find it astounding that the Army or Air Force would ever stoop to such a snub. 2
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: They've issues wavers to the honor code for past non Mormon faculty members in the past...why not now...seems like a they could have avoided all of this My major professor when I was studying for a masters degree was non-LDS. His professional and personal behavior was impeccable, and he fully subscribed to the BYU Honor Code. Accommodating a practicing Jew, Catholic, Buddhist, or Muslim with specific religious practices has nothing to do with a prospective employee who wants to consume adult beverages for recreation.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I think this is a false story. It appears to have its origins in anonymous Reddit posts. Having known several people billeted in ROTC slots at BYU, I would find it astounding that the Army or Air Force would ever stoop to such a snub. And of course you'll be back to admit you were mistaken should the story hits the press
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: They don't and they didn't and now they'll reap the concequences Well, that's a non-answer. Please explain how accommodating the religious practice of non-LDS faculty is comparable with accommodating a prospective employee who wants to sip a brew in his recliner after a hard day on campus. 16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I think this is a false story. It appears to have its origins in anonymous Reddit posts. Having known several people billeted in ROTC slots at BYU, I would find it astounding that the Army or Air Force would ever stoop to such a snub. Quote Contractor personnel performing as ROTC instructors are considered to be in positions of significant trust and authority (POSTA) and therefore subject to broadened background screening. Background checks for POSTA positions include local law enforcement checks, FBI fingerprint checks as well as a favorable PSI for the offenses listed below. The contractor shall coordinate the completion and submission of all required forms, fingerprints, and any other details necessary for the government to perform the background screening. Contractor personnel who have known disqualifying offenses shall not be permitted to work in a POSTA position. Due to the length of time it may take to complete the background checks, contractor personnel with no known disqualifying offenses are eligible to perform under this contract while the POSTA background checks are being processed. The following types of offenses shall be considered as disqualifying: Type I Offenses, Activities, or Situations: a. Sexual harassment b. Sexual assault c. Domestic violence (as defined in AR 608-18, or Ref K) or a criminal offense involving a child or children d. Pandering e. Possession, distribution, receiving or viewing child pornography f. Adultery g. Incest h. Prostitution i. Bestiality j. Stalking k. Sexual activity with a subordinate or fraternization of a sexual nature l. Illegal drug abuse, to include abuse of prescription medication and synthetic drugs m. Any special or general court-martial conviction or any civilian criminal felony conviction in a Soldier's career (including sister services court-martial convictions) n. Previous separation from any service for any Type I offense o. Conduct in violation of Army's policy regarding participation in extremist organizations or activities p. Any repeat offenders (or combination) of Type II offenses anytime during a Soldier's career Type II Offenses, Activities, or Situations occurring within the past five years: a. Alcohol abuse b. Larceny/theft/fraud/burglary c. Previous separation from any military service based on any Type II offense. d. Assault (of non-relative or domestic partner) e. Any traffic violation resulting in six or more points being assessed and/or reckless driving f. Any record of unfavorable information within the past 5 years From the start I have suspected this is fake news. The military men I know here from JB Lewis/McChord would never do something like this to an ROTC program or an institution that upholds an honor coded. Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: My major professor when I was studying for a masters degree was non-LDS. His professional and personal behavior was impeccable, and he fully subscribed to the BYU Honor Code. Accommodating a practicing Jew, Catholic, Buddhist, or Muslim with specific religious practices has nothing to do with a prospective employee who wants to consume adult beverages for recreation. I think its wonderful that these professors amended their personal behavior to accommodate their employment at the Y. This commander is not an employee of the Y. I just believe that this entire matter could have been avoided...its as if the Y is becoming more dogmatic as time goes on...
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: And of course you'll be back to admit you were mistaken should the story hits the press Is this your source? Reddit? I should believe you in the future, and why, if that is the case? Internally, the story just doesn't make sense. The Armed Services depend heavily upon BYU and Mormons in recruiting. They may not be well-liked in the military fraternity, except that bonuses depend upon how recruiting progresses and they don't care where the numbers come from. It would be very contrary to that philosophy to move the ROTC program (which has its own complete building at BYU) off-campus. It would be a serious controversy and heads would roll. So, yes, I think the story is false. Edited January 24, 2017 by Bob Crockett 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: And of course you'll be back to admit you were mistaken should the story hits the press Even if it is not fake news, it's still absurd.
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: 2nd: I don't know this commander...but I'd take a guess that he has respect for the Y...but it is a lot to ask a grown man who was "assigned" to oversee the ROTC program at the Y and did not choose this assignment to alter his lifestyle to conform to honor code at an institution he merely works at and not for. Obviously the Y is in this situation because it did not feel, for what ever reasons, that it could wave its honor code for this man...that is its right...he on the other hand obviously did not want to compromise his lifestyle to conform to a standard he did not feel he could bend on...thus the impasse. CFR that he was assigned to the post and did not voluntarily seek the job. Quote Although ROTC instructors are selected and certified by the branch of the armed forces they represent, they are also employees of the school district, college or university where they work. Therefore, they may require additional state licensing and certification. The qualifications and experience required to become licensed teachers varies by state. Some states have special programs designed to assist retired military personnel to become instructors, such as the Troops to Teachers program in Alabama. Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I'm pretty surprised by the majority of responses on this thread. This seems to be a bigger loss for BYU than it is for ROTC/DoD. Let's review... 1-Non-member is assigned by the Dept. of Defense to instruct ROTC at BYU. He did not seek to teach or attend BYU. 2-Non-member honestly/honorably states he is unwilling to abide by religious rules and refuses to sign the honor code 3-Non-member moves ROTC off of BYU campus so he can fulfill his job duties unencumbered by BYU restrictions/requirements. It sounds to me like he did things the right way. If BYU cares about having the ROTC on campus they can make an honor code exception. If they don't care, then the ROTC can leave campus and there is no harm. BYU is attempting to dictate requirements to the Dept. of Defense for how they assign an instructor to BYU. DoD can comply if they are feeling generous but they don't need to. They are not impacting on the religious liberty of anyone at BYU. If BYU wants the benefits of the ROTC they must make allowances. If DoD wants the benefits of BYU they must make allowances. If neither wants to make allowances, it's probably best they go their separate ways. CFR that: 1. He was assigned and did not apply for the position as described in the ROTC instructor recruitment site. 2. He has the right to reject the employment conditions in the institution where he is seeking employment. 3. He has authority to shut down an existing program and move it to a more comfortable place. 4. That he can shut down an existing and highly successful and reputable program for purely personal reasons. Quote Although ROTC instructors are selected and certified by the branch of the armed forces they represent, they are also employees of the school district, college or university where they work. Therefore, they may require additional state licensing and certification. The qualifications and experience required to become licensed teachers varies by state. Some states have special programs designed to assist retired military personnel to become instructors, such as the Troops to Teachers program in Alabama. Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: And of course you'll be back to admit you were mistaken should the story hits the press Will you be back to do so if it doesn't?
Buckeye Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I'm not sure what you mean when you say BYU doesn't have a right to an ROTC program. It's voluntary for all....the institution, the instructors, the participants. BYU's program was highly respected when I went there in the 1960s. When such things were under societal attack elsewhere, BYU maintained, supported, and proudly exhibited their program. Why would the DOD want to destroy that great tradition by sticking BYU in the eye with an issue that calls into question their long-standing Honor Code, when the military itself has an extremely strict honor code and expects total compliance or face discipline or dismissal? What fool decided to do that? My point is that its voluntary for the government to place the ROTC program at BYU. I know it's highly respected. One of my best friends was in the BYU Air Force ROTC in the mid-90s. And I don't dispute that it could be foolish to move, though there may be more mundane reasons too such as UVU having a larger body of interested students than the Y. Regardless, my point is that just like BYU gets to call its shots, the government gets to call this shot. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: And of course you'll be back to admit you were mistaken should the story hits the press What will you do if you are promoting fake news?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: CFR that he was assigned to the post and did not voluntarily seek the job. The article that was cited here from the BYU Universe quotes him as saying applicants compete for the position and it's highly sought after, that there was a limited number of schools who were "hiring" (indicating the commander works for the school(s) not just the government). So no, I don't think johnniecake has the correct conception if he thinks the guy was just stuck at BYU without having any personal say in the matter.
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Buckeye said: My point is that its voluntary for the government to place the ROTC program at BYU. I know it's highly respected. One of my best friends was in the BYU Air Force ROTC in the mid-90s. And I don't dispute that it could be foolish to move, though there may be more mundane reasons too such as UVU having a larger body of interested students than the Y. Regardless, my point is that just like BYU gets to call its shots, the government gets to call this shot. Quote Although ROTC instructors are selected and certified by the branch of the armed forces they represent, they are also employees of the school district, college or university where they work. Therefore, they may require additional state licensing and certification. The qualifications and experience required to become licensed teachers varies by state. Some states have special programs designed to assist retired military personnel to become instructors, such as the Troops to Teachers program in Alabama.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, Buckeye said: My point is that its voluntary for the government to place the ROTC program at BYU. I know it's highly respected. One of my best friends was in the BYU Air Force ROTC in the mid-90s. And I don't dispute that it could be foolish to move, though there may be more mundane reasons too such as UVU having a larger body of interested students than the Y. Regardless, my point is that just like BYU gets to call its shots, the government gets to call this shot. He's the commander for the ROTC program at UVU as well. So UVU having a higher number of interested students (assuming it does) would not be a factor.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 I've tweeted PEGGY FLETCHER STACK | asking if she has been made aware of this story...waiting and hoping for a reply
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: CFR that: 1. He was assigned and did not apply for the position as described in the ROTC instructor recruitment site. 2. He has the right to reject the employment conditions in the institution where he is seeking employment. 3. He has authority to shut down an existing program and move it to a more comfortable place. CFR that real people fell for the story in the first place. It is just so absurd. I spent a little time there in the ROTC building with law school classmates billeted there and was introduced around. Commanding officers and NCOs there volunteer for spots when they open up. It is a sort of retirement short of retirement. I suppose that there might be somebody there who has gone off the rails in protest over alcohol, but to appear in Reddit? I don't see it, but I am waiting for Mr. JCake to deny he got his source from Reddit.
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Just now, Johnnie Cake said: I've tweeted PEGGY FLETCHER STACK | asking if she has been made aware of this story...waiting and hoping for a reply Was Reddit your source?
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: CFR that he was assigned to the post and did not voluntarily seek the job. CFR that he wasn't assigned to the post and that he voluntarily sought the job
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The article that was cited here from the BYU Universe quotes him as saying applicants compete for the position and it's highly sought after, that there was a limited number of schools who were "hiring" (indicating the commander works for the school(s) not just the government). So no, I don't think johnniecake has the correct conception if he thinks the guy was just stuck at BYU without having any personal say in the matter. If all this is true, he was either uninformed or disingenuous when he accepted a position for which he applied. That is not something I would expect from a military officer. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: CFR that he wasn't assigned to the post and that he voluntarily sought the job I have provided that 3 times. Your turn. Here is the official application form: Quote How To Apply Complete and submit the electronic application below. After you complete and submit the form, you will receive instructions to complete your application. (Note1 You must have javascript enabled to complete this on-line application) Note: Fields with a * are required. Position Preferences Preferred Position Type*: Senior Military Science InstructorMilitary Science InstructorAdministrative TechnicianStaff Specialist Hold control to select multiple preferences. 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Austin State UniversityTX - Tarleton State UniversityTX - Texas A&M Corpus ChristiTX - Texas A&M University-Kingsville W/ Duty At Texas A&M International UniversityTX - Tarleton State University W/ Duty At Texas A&M University - Central TexasTX - Texas A&M University-College StationTX - Texas A&M University-KingsvilleTX - Texas Christian UniversityTX - University of Houston W/ Duty At Texas Southern UniversityTX - Texas State University-San MarcosTX - Texas Tech UniversityTX - University of HoustonTX - University of Houston W/ Duty At University of Houston-DowntownTX - St. Mary's University W/ Duty At University of Incarnate WordTX - Tarleton State University W/ Duty At University of Mary Hardin-BaylorTX - Texas Christian University W/ Duty At University of North TexasTX - University of Texas-ArlingtonTX - University of Texas-AustinTX - University of Texas-Pan American W/ Duty At University of Texas-BrownsvilleTX - University of Texas-El PasoTX - University of Texas-Pan AmericanTX - University of Texas-San AntonioUT - Brigham Young University - IdahoUT - Brigham Young University - UtahUT - Brigham Young University - Idaho W/ Duty At Dixie State CollegeUT - Brigham Young University - Idaho W/ Duty At Southern Utah UniversityUT - University of UtahUT - Weber State University W/ Duty At Utah State UniversityUT - Brigham Young University - Idaho W/ Duty At Utah Valley UniversityUT - Weber State UniversityVA - College of William and Mary W/ Duty At Christopher Newport UniversityVA - College of William and MaryVA - East Tennessee State University W/ Duty At ETSU w/duty @ UVA WiseVA - George Mason UniversityVA - Hampton UniversityVA - James Madison UniversityVA - University of Virginia W/ Duty At Liberty UniversityVA - University of Richmond W/ Duty At Longwood UniversityVA - Norfolk State UniversityVA - Old Dominion UniversityVA - Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University W/ Duty At Radford UniversityVA - University of RichmondVA - University of VirginiaVA - University of Richmond W/ Duty At Virginia Commonwealth UniversityVA - Virginia Military InstituteVA - Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State UniversityVA - Virginia State UniversityVA - Virginia Military Institute W/ Duty At Virginia Women's Institute for LeadershipVI - University of Puerto Rico-Mayaguez W/ Duty At University of the Virgin IslandsVI - University of Puerto Rico-Mayaguez W/ Duty At University of Virgin Islands- St. ThomasVT - Norwich UniversityVT - University of VermontWA - 8th BrigadeWA - Central Washington UniversityWA - Eastern Washington UniversityWA - Gonzaga UniversityWA - Pacific Lutheran UniversityWA - Seattle UniversityWA - University of WashingtonWA - Washington State UniversityWI - University of Wisconsin-Madison W/ Duty At Maranatha Baptist Bible CollegeWI - Marquette UniversityWI - University of Wisconsin-La CrosseWI - University of Wisconsin-MadisonWI - University of Wisconsin-OshkoshWI - University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point W/ Duty At University of Wisconsin-River FallsWI - University of Wisconsin-Stevens PointWI - University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point W/ Duty At University of Wisconsin-StoutWI - University of Wisconsin-Madison W/ Duty At University of Wisconsin-WhitewaterWV - West Virginia State UniversityWV - West Virginia UniversityWY - University of Wyoming Hold control to select multiple preferences. Preferred State*: AlabamaAlaskaAmerican SamoaArizonaArkansasAsia/PacificCaliforniaColoradoConnecticutDelawareDistrict Of ColumbiaEuropeFloridaGeorgiaGuamHawaiiIdahoIdahoIllinoisIndianaIowaKansasKentuckyLouisianaMaineMarylandMassachusettsMichiganMinnesotaMississippiMissouriMontanaNebraskaNevadaNew HampshireNew JerseyNew MexicoNew YorkNorth CarolinaNorth DakotaOhioOklahomaOregonPennsylvaniaPuerto RicoRhode IslandSouth CarolinaSouth DakotaTennesseeTexasUtahVermontVirgin IslandsVirginiaWashingtonWest VirginiaWisconsinWyoming Hold control to select multiple preferences. Are you flexible on locations you might agree to?* Yes No Available Start Date*: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930 201720182019202020212022 Please provide the following information. Contact Information Last Name*: First Name*: Middle Initial: Street Address*: City*: State*: AlabamaAlaskaAmerican SamoaArizonaArkansasAsia/PacificCaliforniaColoradoConnecticutDelawareDistrict Of ColumbiaEuropeFloridaGeorgiaGuamHawaiiIdahoIdahoIllinoisIndianaIowaKansasKentuckyLouisianaMaineMarylandMassachusettsMichiganMinnesotaMississippiMissouriMontanaNebraskaNevadaNew HampshireNew JerseyNew MexicoNew YorkNorth CarolinaNorth DakotaOhioOklahomaOregonPennsylvaniaPuerto RicoRhode IslandSouth CarolinaSouth DakotaTennesseeTexasUtahVermontVirgin IslandsVirginiaWashingtonWest VirginiaWisconsinWyoming Zip Code*: Country: Home Phone*: Format: (xxx) xxx-xxxx Work Phone: Cell Phone: Email*: Military Background Current Rank*: COLLTC(P)LTCMAJ(P)MAJCPT(P)CPT1LT(P)1LT2LT(P)2LTCWOWOCSMSGMMSG1SGSFCSSGSGTSPCMsMr Branch (Officer): AD - 14AG - 42AR - 12AV - 15CA - 38CM - 74EN - 21FA - 13FI - 44IN - 11MC - 60-62MI - 35MP - 31OD - 91PA - 46PsyOps - 39QM - 92SC - 25SF - 18SP - 65TC - 88 MOS (Enlisted): 11-IN13-FA14-AD15-AV18-SF19-AR21-EN25-SC27-JAG31-MP33-EW37-PsyOps38-CA42-Admin44-FI45-Armament46-PA52-Special Equipment56-Religious63-Vehicle68-MC74-CM79-Recruit88-TC89-OD92-QM94-ELM96-Intel97-CI98-Comm Intel Current Status: RETAGRUSARNGACTIVEIRRTPUCIVOTHER Separation Date: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930 195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024202520262027 Retirement Date: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930 195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024202520262027 Reserve Oblig Term Date: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930 195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024202520262027 Years of Service*: 012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940 Highest Rank Held*: COLLTC(P)LTCMAJ(P)MAJCPT(P)CPT1LT(P)1LT2LT(P)2LTCWOWOCSMSGMMSG1SGSFCSSGSGTSPCMsMr Highest Military Education*: OtherSenior Service CollegeCommand & General StaffOfficer Basic CourseOfficer Advanced CourseSergeantMajor AcademyANCOCBNCOCAIT Last Command Assignment*: Last 3 Military Positions*: 1. 2. 3. Have you had any ROTC instructor experience? Yes No Height: Weight: Last APFT Score: (must be entirely numeric) Last APFT Date: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930 195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024202520262027 Do you currently have a favorably adjudicated NACLC?* Yes No Do you now or have you held a US security clearance in the past ten years? Yes No Civilian Background Highest Education Completed*: Not a HS graduateHSLess than 40 undergraduate hours40 or more undergraduate hoursAABA/BSMA/MSM.Ed.PHDMBAJDN/A Date Received: JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 19501951195219531954195519561957195819591960196119621963196419651966196719681969197019711972197319741975197619771978197919801981198219831984198519861987198819891990199119921993199419951996199719981999200020012002200320042005200620072008200920102011201220132014201520162017 School: College GPA: Do you speak another language? ArabicChineseFrenchSpanishGermanTurkish Have you ever been convicted of a felony or misdemeanor?* Yes No If so, explain: How did you learn about the ROTC Functional Support Contract?* Army TimesGI JobsNational Guard MagazineACAPMonster.comJob Ads USANGOTeam L3 EmployeeOtherDiceMOAAAmerica’s Job BankMilitary TalentDestiny Military Job Board If Other or Employee, please specify: We are proud of our diverse environment, EOE, M/F/D/V This site is hosted created and maintained by .Communication Technologies, Inc Privacy Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Bob Crockett said: Was Reddit your source? I am aware of the reddit source posted above...but NO that was not my original source...it was from someone close to this story.
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