BYU is Losing its ROTC...because they refuse to Compromise on Honor Code

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

BYU isn't part of the DoD. IE; My house my rules. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

And that's exactly what they appear to be doing.

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And that's exactly what they appear to be doing.

That's fine by me.

[Bernard Gui]

Sounds like fake news, but I'll bite.

The entity at fault is not BYU or the ROTC, but rather the office in the DOD that employs bureaucrats stupid (or divisive) enough to put them in this position. Every military officer I know would be respectful of another's honor code. After all, they live and die by their code. I would not respect an officer who put his taste or need for alcohol above his obligations as a professional soldier to function appropriately in a position of authority to which he is assigned. A good officer would not make this a condition of employment.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Johnnie Cake]

11 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

BYU isn't part of the DoD. IE; My house my rules. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

I'm guessing that you were on the BYU committee that came to this decision to not compromise  or issue a waver as has been done in the past for this new commander:-)

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sounds like fake news, but I'll bite.

The entity at fault is not BYU or the ROTC, but rather the office in the DOD that employs bureaucrats stupid enough to put them in this position. Every military officer I know would be respectful of another's honor code. After all, they live and die by their code. I would not respect an officer who put his taste or need for alcohol above his obligations as a professional soldier to function appropriately in a position of authority to which he is assigned. A good officer would not make this a condition of employment.

You need to understand that drinking a beer in the real world is not considered evil, wrong or unusual...in fact NOT drinking is what is considered unusual. Drinking a beer with a meal is no more benign then drinking water.

Remember to drink responsibly.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Buckeye]

For an example of where the church and the US military have worked together to find compromise, consider the LDS garments for military servicemen and women. Both parties had to make some accomodations here. The military allowed special underwear. And the church allowed for non-white garments. See https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/military/military-garment-special-orders.pdf

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

BYU isn't part of the DoD. IE; My house my rules. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

Yes, but they aren't asking this non-member employee to follow their rules in their house.
They are asking him to sign a contract that he will follow their rules in his own house.  That's a bit of an overreach.

If you worked in a Jewish company and they had a prohibition on non-Kosher food would you follow it?  Of course.
Would you sign a contract forbidding you to eat bacon in the privacy of your own home because they don't approve of it?  I don't know many people that would.
 

Edited January 24, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Buckeye]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, but they aren't asking this non-member employee to follow their rules in their house.
They are asking him to sign a contract that he will follow their rules in his own house.  That's a bit of an overreach.

If you worked in a Jewish company and they had a prohibition on non-Kosher food would you follow it?  Of course.
Would you sign a contract forbidding you to eat bacon in the privacy of your own home because they don't approve of it?  I don't know many people that would.
 

Now that's a really good analogy.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR, please. 

 

14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Have I ever lied to u scott?  Inside source ..being a journalist you understand that right?

 

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you can't document this, then?

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm sure it will become wide spread news by tomorrow 

So tomorrow is here. I've done searches on Google and Yahoo! and so far, the only hits I come up with on this thing are this very thread and the one on the Cougar Board.

Maybe it's just a matter of time, but if this story had legs, I would think the Tribune would be all over this like ants on candy by now. Especially if the dispute has been going on since last summer.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sounds like fake news, but I'll bite.

The entity at fault is not BYU or the ROTC, but rather the office in the DOD that employs bureaucrats stupid enough to put them in this position. Every military officer I know would be respectful of another's honor code. After all, they live and die by their code. I would not respect an officer who put his taste or need for alcohol above his obligations as a professional soldier to function appropriately in a position of authority to which he is assigned. A good officer would not make this a condition of employment.

I know lots of military officers who would balk at this kind of a restriction. I probably would balk at having to sign the BYU honor code as an officer assigned to the school and I am LDS.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

 

So tomorrow is here. So far, and the only hits I come up with on this thing are this very thread and the one on the Cougar Board.

Maybe it's just a matter of time, but if this story had legs, I would the Tribune would be all over this like ants on candy by now. Especially if the dispute has been going on since last summer.

The glorious new era of fake news is upon us.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Now that's a really good analogy.

Are we certain that BYU was requiring him to abide by the Word of Wisdom at home? I have a hard time believing that. 

I had a Catholic professor for Biology 130 at BYU. I'm pretty sure BYU didn't require him, in his private life, to abstain from alcohol. Or at least to affirm in writing that he would. This would be a similar situation, I think, wouldn't it?

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are we certain that BYU was requiring him to abide by the Word of Wisdom at home? I have a hard time believing that. 

I had a Catholic professor for Biology 130 at BYU. I'm pretty sure BYU didn't require him, in his private life, to abstain from alcohol. Or at least to affirm in writing that he would. This would be a similar situation, I think, wouldn't it?

That's what the honor code is. It's not just about conduct at school, it's about conduct everywhere in life.

I know a woman who was taking online classes from BYU-I who was concerned about signing the honor code because it had a restriction on swearing. While I'm not a fan of swearing, it's pretty ridiculous that a grown woman, living states away, taking online classes would have to sign an honor code promising not to swear.

ETA- From BYU honor code

Quote

As a matter of personal commitment, the faculty, administration, staff, and students of Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, BYU-I, and LDS Business College seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will:

Be honest

Live a chaste and virtuous life

Obey the law and all campus policies

Use clean language

Respect others

Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse

Participate regularly in church services

Observe Dress and Grooming Standards

Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code

All students, upon admission to BYU, are required to observe the standards of the Honor Code at all times, whether on or off campus. https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[thesometimesaint]

40 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm guessing that you were on the BYU committee that came to this decision to not compromise  or issue a waver as has been done in the past for this new commander:-)

I have no position of authority at BYU. I was there in 1975 as a student.

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are we certain that BYU was requiring him to abide by the Word of Wisdom at home? I have a hard time believing that. 

I had a Catholic professor for Biology 130 at BYU. I'm pretty sure BYU didn't require him, in his private life, to abstain from alcohol. Or at least to affirm in writing that he would. This would be a similar situation, I think, wouldn't it?

Yes, that's a similar situation. But I think the same rules would apply. Do you think the professor would have to obey the law of chastity in his private life? So why not the WoW? As HappyJackWagon said, the Honor Code does not stop at your doorstep. 

 

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's what the honor code is. It's not just about conduct at school, it's about conduct everywhere in life.

I would like some firm verification from somebody (doesn't have to be you) that the honor code requires non-LDS faculty (obviously adults) to abide by all of the honor code requirements. Are they allowed out after 11:00 PM?  

Why hasn't this hit the news? This sounds like it would be a big feeding frenzy in the media.

[Mark Beesley]

15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise.  I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his freedom as an American to drink alcohol which conflicts with the Y's honor code...but BYU won't allow that...and won't issue a waver for this commander as they have done for other non-Mormon faculty in the past...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU...

Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code?  Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others?

Edit: I've removed the inference that the commander was exercising his religious freedoms...clearly this is not a religious freedom issue at least from his standpoint.

You need to understand what religious freedom means. It means the freedom to practice one's religion free from interference by the government. It does not include the freedom to practice one's religion free of interference by other private individuals or organizations. Depending on the circumstances, a private individual's interference with another's practice of their religion may give rise to a claim of discrimination under state or federal statutory law, law, but not a claim under the Constitution for deprivation of the First Amendment right to religious freedom. Or, a person  might be subject to a charge of trespass for interfering in another person is exercise of their religion. But again, the term religious freedom really applies only to protecting the individual from interference by the government.

So, the fact that BYU imposes extra-scriptural requirements on its students or faculty, while perhaps rather draconian and ill-advised, it is its right to do so in exercising the religious freedom of those who are resonsible for placing such burdens on those who wish to affilliate with the school. No one is compelled to affiliate with BYU.

Hope that helps.

 

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are we certain that BYU was requiring him to abide by the Word of Wisdom at home? I have a hard time believing that.

I had a Catholic professor for Biology 130 at BYU. I'm pretty sure BYU didn't require him, in his private life, to abstain from alcohol. Or at least to affirm in writing that he would. This would be a similar situation, I think, wouldn't it?

From the honor code instructors are required to sign:

• By accepting appointment on the faculty, continuing in employment, or continuing class enrollment, individuals evidence their commitment to observe the Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees "at all times and…in all places"
• seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will
• Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
• Participate regularly in church services

And finally:

• Violations of these standards may be reported to the Honor Code Office, 4440 WSC, (801) 422-2847, or the Off-Campus Housing Office, (801) 422-1513.

 

"Hey, that non-member professor gave me a bad grade.  Oh look, there he is having a coffee in a local café on his Sunday off and I don't think he attends Church either.  I'm going to report this honor code violation and get him fired."

Total overreach.
Violations of the honor code that occur off-campus should be no business of the school for non-members and for members it should be between them and their bishop.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So tomorrow is here. So far, and the only hits I come up with on this thing are this very thread and the one on the Cougar Board.

Maybe it's just a matter of time, but if this story had legs, I would the Tribune would be all over this like ants on candy by now. Especially if the dispute has been going on since last summer.

YOUR opportunity to Scoop the Trib Scott...make a phone call, confirm the story and get it in tomorrows DesNews

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

From the honor code instructors are required to sign:

• By accepting appointment on the faculty, continuing in employment, or continuing class enrollment, individuals evidence their commitment to observe the Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees "at all times and…in all places"
• seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will
• Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
• Participate regularly in church services

And finally:

• Violations of these standards may be reported to the Honor Code Office, 4440 WSC, (801) 422-2847, or the Off-Campus Housing Office, (801) 422-1513.

 

"Hey, that non-member professor gave me a bad grade.  Oh look, there he is having a coffee in a local café on his Sunday off and I don't think he attends Church either.  I'm going to report this honor code violation and get him fired."

Total overreach.
Violations of the honor code that occur off-campus should be no business of the school for non-members and for members it should be between them and their bishop.

Thank you! I agree that this is an area we could easily and gladly compromise, in the spirit of "reasonable compromise" that is being preached by the Brethren in connection with religious freedom issues. This is an easy one --- and an unforced error while it remains a stalemate.

It seems that it might have been better to have found an LDS person qualified from the Air Force side who could have directed it. Then it wouldn't have been an issue, either.

[Johnnie Cake]

17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I have no position of authority at BYU. I was there in 1975 as a student.

It was a joke

[Buckeye]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I would like some firm verification from somebody (doesn't have to be you) that the honor code requires non-LDS faculty (obviously adults) to abide by all of the honor code requirements. Are they allowed out after 11:00 PM?  

Why hasn't this hit the news? This sounds like it would be a big feeding frenzy in the media.

Here's the key language from the honor code. It makes no distinction between LDS and non-LDS faculty.

 

Quote

As a matter of personal commitment, the faculty, administration, staff, and students of Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, BYU-I, and LDS Business College seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will:

• Be honest
• Live a chaste and virtuous life
• Obey the law and all campus policies
• Use clean language
• Respect others
• Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
• Participate regularly in church services
• Observe Dress and Grooming Standards
• Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26

 

As for an affirmative statement that non-LDS faculty must abide by the honor code, here is the best I could find (albeit a bit dated):

Quote

 

Students are not the only ones who find themselves in the minority. Two non-LDS professors, Eula Monroe and Juliana Boerio-Goates, have written about their time on campus in a soon-to-be published book, "Finding God at BYU," a compilation of personal experiences that includes contributions from LDS faculty as well.

As of fall semester, of the 1,500 full-time faculty and visiting professors at BYU, 77 (5 percent) are non-LDS. Like students, faculty members must agree to abide by the school's Honor Code.

As a devout Southern Baptist from Kentucky, Eula Monroe never imagined she would wind up teaching at BYU, yet here she is. "It's the work of the Lord," she says, that brought the mathematics professor to BYU seven years ago. "I love it here, much to the surprise of my friends."

She says her faith has grown since coming to BYU. In "Finding God at BYU," Monroe, the only full-time faculty member who is Baptist, writes, "I am convinced that, had I stayed in Kentucky, the focus of my spiritual life would not have been as clear as it is today."

As part of her duties at BYU, Monroe is the faculty adviser for the Baptist Student Union, which has a small group of active members. Each week, the group meets for Bible study. But the group, founded at BYU 31 years ago, also serves as a support organization for students.

Adjusting to BYU wasn't too difficult for Monroe. "There was a lot to learn about the culture, but I had decided that if I came here, I would abide by the rules and the Honor Code, which isn't that much different from what I believe in," says Monroe, who like other non-LDS professors agreed when hired not to witness for her faith. "There are no difficulties as long as we treat each other with respect, as long as we stay away from talking about doctrine. . . . I have a great deal of love and regard for my colleagues and the administration."

Boerio-Goates is a chemistry professor who is Catholic. Because she is married to a man who is LDS (husband Stephen Goates teaches in the same department), Boerio-Goates has a unique perspective. "Many Mormons don't realize how pervasive the LDS influence is on campus," she says. "I very much like being at BYU, for the most part. When I was interviewed 17 years ago by (Elder) Paul H. Dunn, he was most concerned if I would be happy here rather than being concerned I'd follow the party line. I was impressed by that."

She has noticed there are fewer Catholics on campus than in years past and that the atmosphere is less comfortable for non-LDS students now than it was 20 years ago. "Every class is supposed to be 'taught with the spirit,' " Boerio-Goates says. "There's more of an emphasis on that. That is not a criticism. It becomes awkward when it's not your theology."

Comment on this story
Still, she tries to let students know of her religious affiliation up front. "I make a joke on the first day of class that I'm 'coming out of the closet,' that I am not LDS," Boerio-Goates said. "I take time to discuss my beliefs. Students say they appreciate it."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/728999/Religious-freedom-Whats-BYU-life-like-for-non-LDS-professors-students.html

 

 

 

[Buckeye]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

Thank you! I agree that this is an area we could easily and gladly compromise, in the spirit of "reasonable compromise" that is being preached by the Brethren in connection with religious freedom issues. This is an easy one --- and an unforced error while it remains a stalemate.

It seems that it might have been better to have found an LDS person qualified from the Air Force side who could have directed it. Then it wouldn't have been an issue, either.

So exactly which parts of the honor code (below) are you suggesting non-LDS faculty should be allowed to dismiss off campus? Anything beyond WoW? As I mentioned before, the honor code does allow for some variance for religious differences - such as Sikh's having beards and Catholics taking wine at Eucharist. But there are no general exceptions to avoid the WoW, etc.

Crucially, if non-LDS faculty get to dismiss the WoW, would you grant the same rights to non-LDS students? If so, I think I know a way for BYU to finally beat the UU at football.

• Be honest
• Live a chaste and virtuous life
• Obey the law and all campus policies
• Use clean language
• Respect others
• Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
• Participate regularly in church services
• Observe Dress and Grooming Standards
• Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Buckeye

[Johnnie Cake]

15 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

You need to understand what religious freedom means. It means the freedom to practice one's religion free from interference by the government. It does not include the freedom to practice one's religion free of interference by other private individuals or organizations. Depending on the circumstances, a private individual's interference with another's practice of their religion may give rise to a claim of discrimination under state or federal statutory law, law, but not a claim under the Constitution for deprivation of the First Amendment right to religious freedom. Or, a person  might be subject to a charge of trespass for interfering in another person is exercise of their religion. But again, the term religious freedom really applies only to protecting the individual from interference by the government.

So, the fact that BYU imposes extra-scriptural requirements on its students or faculty, while perhaps rather draconian and ill-advised, it is its right to do so in exercising the religious freedom of those who are resonsible for placing such burdens on those who wish to affilliate with the school. No one is compelled to affiliate with BYU.

Hope that helps.

 

Yes you are correct...

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You need to understand that drinking a beer in the real world is not considered evil, wrong or unusual...in fact NOT drinking is what is considered unusual. Drinking a beer with a meal is no more benign then drinking water.

Remember to drink responsibly.

I do not need to understand anything here. Drinking a beer is not evil, wrong, or unusual. Mormons and others commit themselves to different behavior. So what? I detect some projection here.

It's a matter of respect for other people. The military is all about respect, even for their enemy soldiers. 

Part of my son's training to fight in Afghanistan included information on local customs and mores and strict commands not to violate or challenge them. There were heavy restrictions placed on alcohol consumption which is abhorred by people in the region. The soldiers were expected to abide the regulations or face discipline. He had an awful time restraining himself when he encountered so-called allies who used little boys for gratification and comfort. 

If the DOD bureaucrats can tolerate that, then it's not a great leap fot them and this (fictitious?) officer to respect BYU's Honor Code.