BYU is Losing its ROTC...because they refuse to Compromise on Honor Code

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's what he did. He refused to sign the honor code and moved the program to UVU. Yet you also say that is dishonorable. Sounds like this guy can't win with you. He's not a BYU employee. He's a military employee and follows their rules. Do you understand the distinction about who is employing him? It's not BYU. If they allow him to instruct at UVU instead of BYU, why do you have a problem?

Do we really think that an instructor would have the authority to move a program from BYU to UVU without approval from superiors? IF this story is accurate then he appears to have done everything right yet the judgmentalism of some just can't be appeased.

Let's be clear. There is not enough information to know what happened, if this is true at all. Many questions arise. Was this a volunteer opportunity? Was he ordered to take the job? Did he apply for the position? 

If he sought the position, knew the conditions of employment, was offered and accepted the job, and then balked at signing the code at the last minute, then he acted dishonorably. He has no excuse if he did not bother to find out what conditions were attached before he accepted.

The same applies if he received the assignment from a superior of a board of bureaucrats. If they were not informed, it is all on them. If they were looking for a fight, shame on them.

 

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My brother in law was an ROTC instructor on a college campus. He's army. It was a transfer assignment. He enjoyed it, but he didn't request it. It was assigned so he went. After a few years he received a new assignment and is no longer involved in ROTC at all. I don't have great knowledge of military operations but is there any reason to believe that a military officer who was assigned an ROTC position also interviewed with BYU to be staff of BYU? Or is he merely performing a military assignment? IOW- I don't think there would be any kind of "hiring process" between this individual and BYU. He is not BYU faculty. He is a military employee. I think there's a significant difference there.

 

From the article I linked to above, " Col. Timothy J. Hogan: In the Air Force it is necessary to compete for command-level jobs, so I submitted an application for the ROTC commander position. It is an amazing opportunity being able to return to the ROTC and to teach the next generation of leaders. It is a very sought-after job; there were seven schools hiring—including BYU—and applications were narrowed down to fourteen. I was selected for BYU, and I am very humbled and blessed to be here"

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, rongo said:

 The honor code would have been brought up prominently during the hiring process. 

 

Not necessarily since he was vetted and chosen by the DoD and not BYU.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

No I have more...

1st: Thank your son for all of us for his service to our country...I for one sincerely appreciate his sacrifice and service.

2nd: I don't know this commander...but I'd take a guess that he has respect for the Y...but it is a lot to ask a grown man who was "assigned" to oversee the ROTC program at the Y and did not choose this assignment to alter his lifestyle to conform to honor code at an institution he merely works at and not for. Obviously the Y is in this situation because it did not feel, for what ever reasons, that it could wave its honor code for this man...that is its right...he on the other hand obviously did not want to compromise his lifestyle to conform to a standard he did not feel he could bend on...thus the impasse.

There were many more choices and opportunities available before this so-called impasse was reached. 

[CV75]

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not necessarily since he was vetted and chosen by the DoD and not BYU.

So, at what point would the honor code signature be sought? Long after he had already been teaching?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

From the article I linked to above, " Col. Timothy J. Hogan: In the Air Force it is necessary to compete for command-level jobs, so I submitted an application for the ROTC commander position. It is an amazing opportunity being able to return to the ROTC and to teach the next generation of leaders. It is a very sought-after job; there were seven schools hiring—including BYU—and applications were narrowed down to fourteen. I was selected for BYU, and I am very humbled and blessed to be here"

Good addition.  Since this was a volunteer position he competed for, it makes it more problematic.  I suspect if he had said I will work at any ROTC except for BYU, his application would have been tossed.

We do not know if the Honor code issue including the WoW was made clear to him or not.  If it was, then I think he is responsible for accepting a job he was not willing to abide by the standards of and that was not honorable.  If they weren't, it is unfortunate and may have put an honorable man in a very difficult situation.  He may lose an opportunity to advance in his career if he were to withdraw at this stage.

How long of an appointment is the position?

[Okrahomer]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I've had three. Is that "many?" And it wasn't for admissions, but as a condition of employment. I told them that if they can't in good conscience affirm TULIP (and they couldn't), then they shouldn't want to find a way around that. No-brainer.

It's not the federal government we're talking about. It's a private religious university, and it's own religious requirements.

Here are a few examples of what you're talking about--i.e., colleges that require faculty and staff to agree to a Statement of Belief or Article of Faith (some Calvinist, some Methodist, etc.):

Calvin College

Wheaton College

Cedarville University

Eastern University

Central Christian College

Judson University

Bryan College

John Brown University

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

So, at what point would the honor code signature be sought? Long after he had already been teaching?

He apparently refused as soon as he showed up if I read it correctly, so it was likely presented when he had arrived and was finalizing paperwork...or he ignored it before, thinking that part wouldn't be required being nonMormon...or he was a jerk and decided from the getgo he would use the opportunity to humble BYU (which seems unlikely as that could have caused problems for his commanders they didn't want, but possible).

This was one in seven schools he could have been assigned to.  It was a big career opportunity thatfrom what I understand is an organization where such opportunities to move up may be limited due to the need to have high numbers at lower levels, but much less at higher ones.  He may have been made aware of the honor code from the beginning of the process or just learned of it once assigned or the DoD did a really bad job instead of just a bad job and didn't think to mention it because it wasn't a requirement for them.  

It is possible that among the final fourteen candidates there wasn't one who was willing to completely abstain from alcohol for an extended period of time where in the past they had been able to find one.  And that the DoD did not want to spend more money reopening the vetting process to find one.  And figured that BYU was more likely to give in.

Given they are being hosted by schools that likely have different cultures, the DoD vetting process should include imo detailed information about the schools before they are assigned and then include evaluation on how good a fit the commander will be before it gets to limited numbers.  It seems they just ignored this.  Makes me wonder what other stuff gets ignored as unimportant that really is.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

In the high school where I taught, the JROTC leaders were retired military and employed by the school district. They were part of the faculty.

This site gives the requirements for ROTC instructors....the Air Force and Army require them to be retired of close to retirement. That's not specified in the Marine Corps at least on this site.

Quote

Although ROTC instructors are selected and certified by the branch of the armed forces they represent, they are also employees of the school district, college or university where they work. Therefore, they may require additional state licensing and certification. The qualifications and experience required to become licensed teachers varies by state. Some states have special programs designed to assist retired military personnel to become instructors, such as the Troops to Teachers program in Alabama.

http://work.chron.com/rotc-instructor-qualifications-21991.html

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Because what we do in our own home is no business of our workplace unless there can be shown to be a direct impact on that workplace.
Basic HR non-discrimination law prohibits even asking questions in interviews about personal things that have no bearing on the job.  That's HR 101.

Unless what I choose to eat or drink or whether I attend Church directly effects my work making it a bona fide job requirement
For example, you cannot discriminate in a job based on looks.  Unless of course you are hiring a model.
 

 

So, let's give BYU the right to decide what behaviors have a direct impact on its workplace.

[Bernard Gui]

Here is the official US Army site regarding ROTC positions,

http://www.goarmyrotc.com

There is an application process linked.

Quote

Application/Selection Process
--See below to conduct a self assessment to determine position eligibility: 
--Click on the Current Vacancies tab and the state you are interested in.  
--Apply thru the web site (Phase I application)
--Scan and email or mail those documents back to the POC listed on the email you received (Phase II application) 
--Upon receipt the completed packet, we will vet packet and request a NACLC check   Approved packet is then posted on manager data base and available for nomination. 
--Throughout this process, you can contact the Recruiting Staff or the Region Managers to request consideration for a vacant/projected vacant opening but only completed packets can result in selection.
--Region Manager interviews applicants/selects nominee.
--The hiring team member (Apextech or Communication Technologies) contacts the nominee for hiring, issues drug screening instructions. Sends hiring letter via email.  Nominee returns hiring letter and reports to agreed upon location. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Yirgacheffe]

15 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hey sjdawg, thanks for the reply.

I don't know legalities. Things that are wrong can be legal. Things that are right can be illegal. You would have to talk to an attorney about what is legal. I would favor the freedom of an employer to impose whatever regulations it wants to impose upon a potential employee. I would not work for a company that said I could not have a beer...unless they paid me a lot more than the company I work for that doesn't try to regulate my private hours. But for twice as much as I am making, I would think about giving up beer. I fully support the right of an employer to hire whoever it can find who is willing to conform to whatever standards the company wants to impose. I don't necessarily see any value in imposing a religious belief or behavior on someone not of my faith either. But if an employer is so committed to unpopular beliefs as to compete with what would seem to be a moral handicap, I would not see a place for any authority to intercede. It is their problem. I would not force them to violate their beliefs.

Rory

BYU is not the employer of the ROTC fellow, the US government is, should the government be able to tell it's soldiers which religious practices they have to follow depending on the circumstances they are in?

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In the high school where I taught, the JROTC leaders were retired military.

This site gives the requirements for ROTC instructors....the Air Force and Army require them to be retired of close to retirement. That's not specified in the Marine Corps at least on this site.

http://work.chron.com/rotc-instructor-qualifications-21991.html

So likely his last opportunity to move up in rank and get a higher pension rating when retired.  And possibly the only way to extend his time in his chosen career.  It may be more about avoiding retirement for as long as possible than a pay/pension raise.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

A person with honor would gracefully withdraw rather than destroy the ROTC program, thus bringing harm to both the Armed Services and BYU. I could not respect an officer who would be so selfish.

You said they were ordered to do it.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

BYU is not the employer of the ROTC fellow, the US government is, should the government be able to tell it's soldiers which religious practices they have to follow depending on the circumstances they are in?

They do elsewhere.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think the man is honorable to be open about his refusal to abide by the honor code instead of just hiding the behavior or not talking about it.

I think the DoD screwed up by not including this requirement for those they assign to BYU.  As pointed out above, they can be quite sensitive to cultural/religious standards when it is important to them.  In my opinion, they have demonstrated they neither respect BYU or their officer by putting both of them into this conflict and refusing to act in a way that the conflict could be resolved without anyone have to compromise.

Which, of course, is the reasonable way to approach the situation. Why seek a fight were none is needed?

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Sure, but were talking about the ROTC here, not just a single officer. So to use your analogy, what's the problem with the ROTC finding another location where the WoW isn't an issue? BYU doesn't have a right to an ROTC chapter.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say BYU doesn't have a right to an ROTC program. It's voluntary for all....the institution, the instructors, the participants. BYU's program was highly respected when I went there in the 1960s. When such things were under societal attack elsewhere, BYU maintained, supported, and proudly exhibited their program. Why would the DOD want to destroy that great tradition by sticking BYU in the eye with an issue that calls into question their long-standing Honor Code, when the military itself has an extremely strict honor code and expects total compliance or face discipline or dismissal? What fool decided to do that?

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

BYU is not the employer of the ROTC fellow, the US government is, should the government be able to tell it's soldiers which religious practices they have to follow depending on the circumstances they are in?

Read the employment terms I cited above. The ROTC folks are also employees of the school or university at which they work and are subject to rules and regulations in those institutions.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I gave my answer to his analogy above.

It fails because if not eating kosher food off the job were part of the requirements of my employment and I agreed to accept their money on those conditions, it would be arrogant and dishonorable to betray them. If I felt that addicted to my bacon, it might be better to find another job where I wouldn't have to be duplicitous.

BYU does not pay the commander of the BYU ROTC...he is paid by the US Government since ROTC is part of the DoD

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I agree. The example is a case where the military accommodated the church guidelines. Now when it is the church's turn they appear to be refusing.  What if the military rescinded its compromise with gsrments. How would the church feel about their position then?  Would the military have every right to change its position because of how the church handled this?

Can't imagine they would ever retaliate like that...even I would find offense in the military preventing endowed Mormons to wear their garments

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Or BYU could gracefully grant a waver for this officer to not be subject to the honor code as has been done in the past to accommodate non-Mormon instructors on campus rather than destroy the ROTC program,thus bringing harm to both the Armed Services and BYU. I could not respect an institution who would be so selfish.

Why should BYU be expected to do this? BYU rightfully and legally sets the standards for employment in their institutions. Accommodating a practicing Jew or Catholic for religious reasons is not equivalent to accommodating a faculty member who wants to sip a brew in his easy chair after a hard day on campus. 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not if you agreed to those requirements as a condition of employment. The BYU Honor Code (most institutions have such codes) is not hidden from job applicants. If they don't like it, why do they want the job? How is it honorable to agree when you have no intention to keep it?

Again...it is an assigned position not one the commander in charge asked for

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

A few other thoughts and I need to step off:

1. Historically, the ROTC has helped to "defend" BYU from painting the Y red and other vandalism during rivalry week. If the ROTC goes, it may be good news for red paint vendors. 

 Hope springs eternal

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why should BYU be expected to do this? BYU rightfully and legally sets the standards for employment in their institutions. Accommodating a practicing Jew or Catholic for religious reasons is not equivalent to accommodating a faculty member who wants to sip a brew in his easy chair after a hard day on campus. 

BYU isn't required to make an exception but they also don't have an absolute right to have an ROTC program housed on their campus. So they have to choose if they want it enough to make a concession. If they don't, fine. It moves to UVU and everyone is happy.