Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his freedom as an American to drink alcohol which conflicts with the Y's honor code...but BYU won't allow that...and won't issue a waver for this commander as they have done for other non-Mormon faculty in the past...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? Edit: I've removed the inference that the commander was exercising his religious freedoms...clearly this is not a religious freedom issue at least from his standpoint. Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? CFR, please. 1
ksfisher Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 34 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? So drinking beer is a religious freedom?
Calm Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... The rumor mill says just the Air Force, not the Army. I suppose an argument can be made that a rejection of another's religious standard is part of religious freedom. The argument is more about whether BYU is coming into the Air Force arena and demanding its standards be met or the AirForce has asked to be allowed into BYU and as such, accepts the standards of BYU....if the latter, it is BYU's religious freedoms that are being challenged. Edited January 24, 2017 by Calm 4
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 27 minutes ago, ksfisher said: So drinking beer is a religious freedom? No but being compelled to live the word of wisdom is 4
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: CFR, please. Have I ever lied to u scott? Inside source ..being a journalist you understand that right?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Have I ever lied to u scott? Inside source ..being a journalist you understand that right? So you can't document this, then?
Bob Crockett Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? Hah hah. A joke right? That's like saying the Church "denies religious freedom" by telling a non-member father he can't baptize his son in a stake center.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So you can't document this, then? I'm sure it will become wide spread news by tomorrow
Storm Rider Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? This is turning logic on its head. The Honor Code is a standard for participation at BYU. If anyone wants to attend BYU in any capacity they abide by the Honor Code. If the Honor Code is too onerous to observe, then the individual is not forced to attend and that individual has opportunity to attend any of the 4,139 other institutions of higher learning in the United States. How in the heck does it turn into BYU denying religious freedom? Which religion demands that you drink beer? This is the proverbial straining on gnats, imaginary gnats at that, and swallowing camels. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: Hah hah. A joke right? That's like saying the Church "denies religious freedom" by telling a non-member father he can't baptize his son in a stake center. Actually it would be like you being assigned by your employer to fulfill an assignment at the Vatican and when you arrive being told you must attend mass daily including taking the sacramental wine and wafer... good to know you'd have no problem fulfilling your job requirements 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Storm Rider said: This is turning logic on its head. The Honor Code is a standard for participation at BYU. If anyone wants to attend BYU in any capacity they abide by the Honor Code. If the Honor Code is too onerous to observe, then the individual is not forced to attend and that individual has opportunity to attend any of the 4,139 other institutions of higher learning in the United States. How in the heck does it turn into BYU denying religious freedom? Which religion demands that you drink beer? This is the proverbial straining on gnats, imaginary gnats at that, and swallowing camels. Did u catch the part of my post where I said this is the non Mormon ROTC Commander who is assigned the position by the department of defense? Edited January 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 2
Popular Post 3DOP Posted January 24, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? I don't understand the question about religious freedom. (As I get older, I find myself being more and more against most so-called freedoms). But whatever, even from someone who is not LDS, and who is in general anti-freedom, I have to allow that it is okay for BYU to have a freedom to prohibit alcohol consumption by those who want to be in good standing with the university. Anyone or any institution should be free to disassociate from those who violate their moral values. Perhaps, johnny cake, you are even more anti-freedom than I am? 3DOP...while having a bourbon and soda Edited January 24, 2017 by 3DOP 5
3DOP Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Actually it would be like you being assigned by your employer to fulfill an assignment at the Vatican and when you arrive being told you must attend mass daily including taking the sacramental wine and wafer... good to know you'd have no problem fulfilling your job requirements Of course the non-Catholics would in ordinary times be prohibited from receiving what you irreverenty refer to as wine and wafer. But what is wrong with nations and families being free to make laws applicable only within their own spheres of authority? And I thought I was authoritarian... Edited January 24, 2017 by 3DOP 4
Robert F. Smith Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYUs ROTC's new non Mormon commander has refused to sign the Honor code as is the Ys requirement of all campus instructors and neither the Department of Defense, the new commander or BYU will compromise. I understand that the new non Mormon commander is only wanting to exercise his religious freedoms...but BYU won't allow that...the remedy, the ROTC is moving from BYU to UVU... Should non Mormon adult (drinks beer) instructors be given an exemption from the Honor code? Is it right for the Y to claim religious freedom for themselves but deny it for others? 28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: This is turning logic on its head. The Honor Code is a standard for participation at BYU. If anyone wants to attend BYU in any capacity they abide by the Honor Code. If the Honor Code is too onerous to observe, then the individual is not forced to attend and that individual has opportunity to attend any of the 4,139 other institutions of higher learning in the United States. How in the heck does it turn into BYU denying religious freedom? Which religion demands that you drink beer? This is the proverbial straining on gnats, imaginary gnats at that, and swallowing camels. Actually, BYU can make exceptions and grant waivers, but only if there is adequate justification. For example, back in the 1960s, a Jewish Rabbi came to BYU to obtain his doctorate in religion. He also was hired as a Hebrew instructor. He was granted a waiver for both his beard and for drinking of wine (part of the Jewish Qiddush ceremony). Likewise, any Mormon or other student attending the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs must sign their honor code - as this new AFROTC commander must know. Tight military discipline is required of both students and professional cadre (including the commander there). Such rules are not optional, and the new BYU non-Mormon AFROTC commander should accept the rules in place for his new job -- instead of whining like a punk -- providing that Johnnie Cake is giving us the straight scoop. 4
sjdawg Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, 3DOP said: Of course the non-Catholics would in ordinary times be prohibited from receiving what you irreverenty refer to as wine and wafer. But what is wrong with nations and families being free to make laws applicable only within their own spheres of authority? And I thought I was authoritarian... Would it be legal for my employer to tell me I'm not allowed to enjoy a beer (or some other legal activity) during my personal time? I can understand it if I am on call and might need to drive somewhere with no notice but I see no value in imposing a religious belief/behaviour on someone not of your faith. Especially since as noted the employee is assigned to BYU by the department of defense and isn't even a direct employee. 2
3DOP Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Many so-called freedoms are little less than bondage to anarchy, filth, and libertinism and when that is the fruit of a so-called freedom, I know it is evil. I reject such "freedoms". Those who tout bondage in the name of freedoms seem ever ready to reject the true freedom to separate from anarchy, filth, libertinism, or a bourbon and soda. Modern freedom means forcing those with moral values to accept that which is repulsive to their beliefs. It is not freedom, and that is why I describe it as "so-called". 1
3DOP Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, sjdawg said: Would it be legal for my employer to tell me I'm not allowed to enjoy a beer (or some other legal activity) during my personal time? I can understand it if I am on call and might need to drive somewhere with no notice but I see no value in imposing a religious belief/behaviour on someone not of your faith. Especially since as noted the employee is assigned to BYU by the department of defense and isn't even a direct employee. Hey sjdawg, thanks for the reply. I don't know legalities. Things that are wrong can be legal. Things that are right can be illegal. You would have to talk to an attorney about what is legal. I would favor the freedom of an employer to impose whatever regulations it wants to impose upon a potential employee. I would not work for a company that said I could not have a beer...unless they paid me a lot more than the company I work for that doesn't try to regulate my private hours. But for twice as much as I am making, I would think about giving up beer. I fully support the right of an employer to hire whoever it can find who is willing to conform to whatever standards the company wants to impose. I don't necessarily see any value in imposing a religious belief or behavior on someone not of my faith either. But if an employer is so committed to unpopular beliefs as to compete with what would seem to be a moral handicap, I would not see a place for any authority to intercede. It is their problem. I would not force them to violate their beliefs. Rory Edited January 24, 2017 by 3DOP 2
Calm Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Actually it would be like you being assigned by your employer to fulfill an assignment at the Vatican and when you arrive being told you must attend mass daily including taking the sacramental wine and wafer... good to know you'd have no problem fulfilling your job requirements Not partaking is different than partaking. 1
Popular Post Calm Posted January 24, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Did u catch the part of my post where I said this is the non Mormon rotc commander who is assigned the position by the department of defense? The Dept of Defense had asked BYU to house their ROTC on BYU property, if I understand correctly the history (I may not). If so, then they should have assigned a commander who was willing to abide by the honor standard. Instead, they seem to be coming across as if trying to demonstrate they won't be dictated to by a religious organization. Their choice. I wonder how supportive religious schools have been of ROTC programs in the past in contrast to schools in general and if any might pause now in continuing support wondering if sometime in the future conflicts may arise with them as well. 6
Mystery Meat Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: No but being compelled to live the word of wisdom is I see you do not understand what "religious freedom" means. 1
Five Solas Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, Calm said: The Dept of Defense had asked BYU to house their ROTC on BYU property, if I understand correctly the history (I may not). If so, then they should have assigned a commander who was willing to abide by the honor standard. Instead, they seem to be coming across as if trying to demonstrate they won't be dictated to by a religious organization. Their choice. I wonder how supportive religious schools have been of ROTC programs in the past in contrast to schools in general and if any might pause now in continuing support wondering if sometime in the future conflicts may arise with them as well. In corporate America (to which our department of defense is indebted more than a little) this problem is easily overcome by having BYU alumni do the recruiting at BYU. It's handled this way all the time. And it sounds a whole lot nicer than Mormons recruiting Mormons, even though as a practical matter--it's exactly that. And when it comes to the honor code, it's mutually reinforcing. If you're a BYU accounting grad (BYU has a nationally respected accounting program, and all of the "Big Four" recruit there--yes, I know) you can be 99% certain that your recruiter is LDS, same as you. He (and you can be 95% certain it will be a "he") would not be pleased to hear you'd had a beer somewhere along your way. You best keep your unworthy indiscretions far from any reference checks ("due diligence") that you know he's going to do... But imagine if, as Johnnie Cake suggests, one of the US military services didn't do as corporate America does. Imagine they put a non-LDS in charge of a BYU ROTC program, someone who didn't feel beholden to a Mormon-authored honor code. Well, let's just say that if Scott Lloyd's skepticism is well-founded and Johnnie Cake is wrong--this is still a case of when, not if. --Erik
california boy Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: This is turning logic on its head. The Honor Code is a standard for participation at BYU. If anyone wants to attend BYU in any capacity they abide by the Honor Code. If the Honor Code is too onerous to observe, then the individual is not forced to attend and that individual has opportunity to attend any of the 4,139 other institutions of higher learning in the United States. How in the heck does it turn into BYU denying religious freedom? Which religion demands that you drink beer? This is the proverbial straining on gnats, imaginary gnats at that, and swallowing camels. I think I am on your side on this one. BYU has the right to require students and instructors to live by their honor code. It is their school and they are inviting the ROTC to their campus. And one can't fault the ROTC to choose not to continue its relationship with BYU. I wonder however if the Army required all recruits to wear government issue underwear at all times. Would church members feel their religious freedom was being denied if they couldn't wear garments. How about if the Army required them to wear government issue underwear even when they were off base? Is this a fair comparison? If not, then why not.
cdowis Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Likewise, any Mormon or other student attending the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs must sign their honor code - as this new AFROTC commander must know. Tight military discipline is required of both students and professional cadre (including the commander there). Such rules are not optional, and the new BYU non-Mormon AFROTC commander should accept the rules in place for his new job -- instead of whining like a punk -- providing that Johnnie Cake is giving us the straight scoop. At BYU the members of the ROTC must adhere to the Honor Code, and the Commander expects to be exempt from that same code? The Commander is very aware that the code must apply to himself in order to maintain good order. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 47 minutes ago, cdowis said: At BYU the members of the ROTC must adhere to the Honor Code, and the Commander expects to be exempt from that same code? The Commander is very aware that the code must apply to himself in order to maintain good order. Yes, and I fear that this new AFROTC commander is going to see his career cut short. His superiors won't like his attitude. The new SECDEF (Mad Dog Mattis) will likely want him trashed.
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