JAHS Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 5 hours ago, Sky said: Didn't Joseph Smith once say that if we knew how great the Telestial kingdom was, we'd kill ourselves to get there? This idea is said to have come from someone named Charles Walker who quoted Wilford Woodruff who quotedJoseph Smith who said: "He (Wilford Woodruff) refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator." (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker,1837)
rodheadlee Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 hours ago, bluebell said: Had he never been to a wedding where the officiator said "till death do you part" at the end? The idea that God separates families at death is fairly common. Besides that, I don't understand how anyone could be confused by the teachings of the church (of all churches) that we only get certain blessings when we obey God. The only blessing that God offers that is a 'will' and not a 'can' is resurrection. Every other blessing is conditional, right? Why would this blessing be different? I'm sincerely asking because I honestly don't see the issue. We are given weakness that we might be humble. He makes our weakness into our strength. My weakness is preventing me from getting sealed in the Temple. See the problem? When we were growing up we were non Mormon, we didn't know any Mormons, we didn't know what a Mormon was, I am the only Mormon in my family, my wife is the only Mormon in her family. in spite of this when someone died in the family it was "Mommy has gone to heaven to be with Daddy." See the problem? 1
Mark Beesley Posted January 20, 2017 Author Posted January 20, 2017 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Really? Pretty simple scripturally. D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. No celestial glory, no eternal increase (posterity) D&C 132:15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. 17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. 18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. No temple sealing, no eternal marriage. No spouse and no children outside of the Celestial Kingdom. Seems pretty clear cut. Because those in those kingdoms did not abide a law sufficient to receive that blessing. ALL blessings are connected to a corresponding law. Now personally, I don't think that this prevents some time in the unending eternities to follow Terrestrial people becoming prepared to receive a Celestial law and gain back this blessing. But as long as they remain Terrestrial in nature some blessings will be unavoidably denied to them. I believe neither section 131 nor 132 preclude a terrestrial couple from having the capacity of living as a married couple and bearing children based on the parameters of my original post. I like what was posted in another thread on the question of the meaning of "skin" in the Book of Mormon: "If we dare to seek for greater light and knowledge, it can often be found in the most unexpected places, or even the most familiar words." Kevin Christensen We'll never gain further enlightenment in this life if we refuse to challenge pat answers and common interpretations.
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said: I believe neither section 131 nor 132 preclude a terrestrial couple from having the capacity of living as a married couple and bearing children based on the parameters of my original post. You are welcome to that belief. The scripture says otherwise. D&C 131:4 - No top degree of the Celestial, no increase (posterity). D&C 132:17 - No Celestial eternal marriage, single for eternity. Pretty straightforward.
cdowis Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Oliblish said: I don't think most would understand it to mean that God prevents them from being together in the next life if they so choose. Of course they will be able to see and converse with one another, but it will be a platonic relationship, without intimacy of the husband and wife bond. They will know each other but will be as acquaintances. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, cdowis said: Of course they will be able to see and converse with one another, but it will be a platonic relationship, without intimacy of the husband and wife bond. They will know each other but will be as acquaintances. Or perhaps as Adam and Eve before the Fall...
bluebell Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 8 hours ago, cdowis said: Of course they will be able to see and converse with one another, but it will be a platonic relationship, without intimacy of the husband and wife bond. They will know each other but will be as acquaintances. This is how it has been explained to me as well.
Rain Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 16 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I get what you're saying. A huge selling point for the church is that families "can" be together forever. It sounds very comforting and wonderful. I hope people join knowing it "can" happen but that there is no guarantee that it "will" happen. I remember teaching a family on my mission I was sure would love the idea of eternal families. The father became very stern and said something to the effect of "are you telling me your religion believes God will separate families?" I hadn't thought of it that way. In fact I didn't think of it again for many years. But he had a point. The principle can either be viewed as God being gracious and loving enough to let some families remain together or it can be viewed as God separating families for eternity. I too have had most experiences that people don't believe families exist still in the next life. I've even had one woman explain to me that no one would even know each other. Everyone in heaven would only know God. Until recently. The last 10 years or so more and more of the people I know, both in and out of the church, have started to believe they will have a family in the next life. So in my earlier years of teaching this would be a good thing people clung to the idea. Now, often people are more like, "well, yes. Of course." 14 hours ago, bluebell said: Had he never been to a wedding where the officiator said "till death do you part" at the end? The idea that God separates families at death is fairly common. Besides that, I don't understand how anyone could be confused by the teachings of the church (of all churches) that we only get certain blessings when we obey God. The only blessing that God offers that is a 'will' and not a 'can' is resurrection. Every other blessing is conditional, right? Why would this blessing be different? I'm sincerely asking because I honestly don't see the issue. Resurrection is also a 'will' to some extent. It's just that it was conditional in the part that they had to choose to be born and gain a body instead of following Satan. 2
CV75 Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 10 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: I believe neither section 131 nor 132 preclude a terrestrial couple from having the capacity of living as a married couple and bearing children based on the parameters of my original post. I like what was posted in another thread on the question of the meaning of "skin" in the Book of Mormon: "If we dare to seek for greater light and knowledge, it can often be found in the most unexpected places, or even the most familiar words." Kevin Christensen We'll never gain further enlightenment in this life if we refuse to challenge pat answers and common interpretations. But those parameters are faulty, and you have been given scriptural verses precluding them. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 18 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: What is the scriptural support for the following quote from the Gospel Fundamentals manual: "The people who live [in the Terrestrial kingdom] will not be part of an Eternal family but will live separately, without families." Keep in mind that by the time the Millennium ends, temple work will have been completed for virtually everyone. What scriptures preclude a husband and wife, sealed by proxy in the temple but inheriting a Terrestrial glory, from bearing children who would be adopted by Father in Heaven? Keep in mind also that the scriptures are not free of word play, particularly D&C 19 in which the Lord explains that eternal punishment describes the source and nature of the punishment, not the duration. God is a god of love. He has declared that it is not good for man to be alone. Why would that be any different in lesser kingdoms of glory? Joseph Smith taught that the same sociality that we enjoy here will exist in the hereafter. Why couldn't lesser glorified parents have children and send them off for a better life and education than they could offer? We do the same thing here on earth. It would provide an answer for the many questions about why people are born here on earth in such wildly different circumstances. Frankly, I think we as Latter-day Saints have been far too strict in coloring an eternal world in terms of exclusion rather than inclusion. There can be no Temple work for those already judged, and assigned a Kingdom.
Danzo Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Oliblish said: Any married couple can be separated at death whether they are sealed or not. If one spouse dies and the other lives, they are separated (until the other partner follows in death). I think that the understanding of most people have when they hear "till death do us part" at a wedding. I don't think most would understand it to mean that God prevents them from being together in the next life if they so choose. My experience is that most people think they will be together as a family after they die. Their belief usually goes against the official doctrines of their church. Most churches official doctrines (at least the ones I know about) say they won't be together after they die. Edited January 20, 2017 by Danzo 2
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Danzo said: My experience is that most people think they will be together as a family after they die. There belief usually goes against the official doctrines of their church. Most churches official doctrines (at least the ones I know about) say they won't be together after they die. I agree, but also think they think they will be with family but not in the context of how they are now. Most Christian churches believe they'll be with Christ, He is their family along with their families. They believe it will be so glorious no one will be disappointed.
Danzo Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 14 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I agree, but also think they think they will be with family but not in the context of how they are now. Most Christian churches believe they'll be with Christ, He is their family along with their families. They believe it will be so glorious no one will be disappointed. That's the official line, but my experience is that most people still believe that they will still be married, their children will still be their children, etc. On my mission, most people accepted the doctrine of eternal marriage quite easily. Occasionally, they would consult with their priest or pastor and be somewhat surprised their church didn't believe it it. 3
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 No one that really wants, and does all the work of faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood for men, and Sealing in the Temple, to be with their family will be denied that opportunity. But that must occur before their Judgment, and Resurrection into a Kingdom.
cdowis Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: There can be no Temple work for those already judged, and assigned a Kingdom. The temple work had already been done prior to judgement. It is a matter of whether they had accepted it.
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 13 hours ago, rodheadlee said: We are given weakness that we might be humble. He makes our weakness into our strength. My weakness is preventing me from getting sealed in the Temple. See the problem? When we were growing up we were non Mormon, we didn't know any Mormons, we didn't know what a Mormon was, I am the only Mormon in my family, my wife is the only Mormon in her family. in spite of this when someone died in the family it was "Mommy has gone to heaven to be with Daddy." See the problem? Yes, in a nutshell!!!
bluebell Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 13 hours ago, rodheadlee said: We are given weakness that we might be humble. He makes our weakness into our strength. My weakness is preventing me from getting sealed in the Temple. See the problem? When we were growing up we were non Mormon, we didn't know any Mormons, we didn't know what a Mormon was, I am the only Mormon in my family, my wife is the only Mormon in her family. in spite of this when someone died in the family it was "Mommy has gone to heaven to be with Daddy." See the problem? I sincerely don't see the problem. I mean, i understand the heartache and such feelings as wanting to be with loved ones again after death. I think for most of us it's a universal desire. And i take great comfort in the doctrine that everyone will have equal opportunity to gain that blessing, either in this life or after. But how does that change the core doctrine of the gospel, which is that almost all blessings come to us from obedience?
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, cdowis said: The temple work had already been done prior to judgement. It is a matter of whether they had accepted it. Once in a particular Kingdom Temple work isn't done, or even necessary.
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Once in a particular Kingdom Temple work isn't done, or even necessary. Such a finite view of eternity... 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 14 hours ago, rodheadlee said: We are given weakness that we might be humble. He makes our weakness into our strength. My weakness is preventing me from getting sealed in the Temple. See the problem? When we were growing up we were non Mormon, we didn't know any Mormons, we didn't know what a Mormon was, I am the only Mormon in my family, my wife is the only Mormon in her family. in spite of this when someone died in the family it was "Mommy has gone to heaven to be with Daddy." See the problem? I'm the only member in my birth family. I like to believe that they will be given full opportunity in the next life, if not in this one.
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Such a finite view of eternity... Is God going to force you to be with him?
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 40 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Is God going to force you to be with him? Of course not. But I don't buy the idea that "once in a particular Kingdom Temple work isn't done". A truly infinite atonement goes forward and backwards. Progression goes on eternally. I don't believe at all that once Terrestrial always Terrestrial.
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Of course not. But I don't buy the idea that "once in a particular Kingdom Temple work isn't done". A truly infinite atonement goes forward and backwards. Progression goes on eternally. I don't believe at all that once Terrestrial always Terrestrial. I believe in Eternal Progression for everyone. Not just for those in lesser Kingdoms.
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I believe in Eternal Progression for everyone. Not just for those in lesser Kingdoms. Me too!
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: Me too! Then how could someone in a lesser Kingdom progress to the point where they will be with those in an upper Kingdom?
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