JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Thinking said: I'm trying to imagine a lesser kingdom where a husband and wife and their children ended up after the judgement. They all see each other and move in each other's direction. Before they can greet each other, D.o.G. Security swoops in and separates them. Order is maintained. D.o.G. Security = Degrees of Glory Security Again, I picture something more like Adam and Eve pre-fall. God knows how to veil minds and remove knowledge.
Glenn101 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yes. Temple work for everyone will be completed by the end of the Millennium. Some people will accept this work, others will not immediately. But if in the eternities to come (remembering that there is no end to eternity) they choose to accept, the work has already been completed. The validity of those baptisms performed prior to judgment doesn't expire with the resurrection. The ordinance on their behalf remains. Are you saying that when they are standing before Christ at the judgement Seat unrepentant until that moment, be able to then accept the Atonement, repent, and then not have to taste the punishment Jesus talks about in Doctrine and Covenants Section 19?
Ouagadougou Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: It isn't because you drink tea. If you don't make it, it is because you are in rebellion against God. Drinking tea is open rebellion against God? 😀 My point is that the church has a checklist to gain salvation.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 Just now, Ouagadougou said: Drinking tea is open rebellion against God? 😀 My point is that the church has a checklist to gain salvation. Yes it is when you have been told not to drink it. I guess the Sermon on the Mount is a checklist too.
Ouagadougou Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Yes it is when you have been told not to drink it. I guess the Sermon on the Mount is a checklist too. Are we not all prophets entitled to our own understanding of the gospel? It's funny that you believe people who drink Red Bull and Mountain Dew are entitled to the highest level of heaven but tea is so taboo because it's what God wants. I view drinking tea as a superstition, so I'm not that worried about it...come what may! Only God can judge. 😇 1
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Glenn101 said: Are you saying that when they are standing before Christ at the judgement Seat unrepentant until that moment, be able to then accept the Atonement, repent, and then not have to taste the punishment Jesus talks about in Doctrine and Covenants Section 19? No, not at all. I am saying after a few eternities in the Terrestrial Kingdom being ministered to by Christ himself, they may just be ready to move to a Celestial level. And the only ordinance required for entrance into that level of kingdom will already be on the books.
Thinking Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Again, I picture something more like Adam and Eve pre-fall. God knows how to veil minds and remove knowledge. 1
CV75 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yes. Temple work for everyone will be completed by the end of the Millennium. Some people will accept this work, others will not immediately. But if in the eternities to come (remembering that there is no end to eternity) they choose to accept, the work has already been completed. The validity of those baptisms performed prior to judgment doesn't expire with the resurrection. The ordinance on their behalf remains. But D&C 136:58-60 sums it up this way: The dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, and then receive their reward according to their works as heirs of salvation. This means deliverance from spiritual sin (the glory of the spirit) precedes deliverance from physical death (resurrection), which accords with the teachings in D&C 88, that the spirit defines the glory by which the body is resurrected. This takes place and then “Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work” (D&C 76:85). At that point, there is no place else to go since there is nothing else for Him or His servants to do in securing our progress, and no one can ever progress on his own.
CV75 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 18 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: There is absolutely zero support for this statement. In the resurrection everyone gets back a perfect body. There are not any parts missing. If God were to empty the love for spouse out of every non-celestial being, keep them from all types of marital intimacy, and do it in such a way so as to not leave everyone outside the Celestial Kingdom in an everlasting state of misery (cause it is not good for man to be alone), all the while not infringing on their agency, it would result in a god unlike any I would choose to worship. God is a god of love. Any sealed marital relationship cemented with love is a relationship God should seek to preserve so there is no decrease in the total amount of love existing in His kingdom. If God should kill the love between a terrestrially glorified husband and wife, then He would cease to be a God of love. The term sealed marital relationship is intentional on my part to foreclose (as much as possible) the issue of gay marriage mucking up the topic, and because by the end of the Millennium every marriage ever performed will be sealed, IMHO. One problem here is that intelligences are co-eternal with and cleave to the exalted beings who eventually find themselves in their midst, and not merely with beings of perfect bodies in lesser kingdoms. Another problem is, a sociality that is coupled with eternal glory would not contemplate relegating people in lesser kingdoms to the status of cattle by having them function as breeders of offspring that are to be taken away by an exalted being.
cdowis Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I am saying after a few eternities in the Terrestrial Kingdom being ministered to by Christ himself, they may just be ready to move to a Celestial level. And the only ordinance required for entrance into that level of kingdom will already be on the books. And you are saying that they will then die and then be re-resurrected with a celestial body. Or that they will thow off the terrestrial body and receive an upgrade? Edited January 23, 2017 by cdowis
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 On 1/19/2017 at 1:24 PM, JLHPROF said: Really? Pretty simple scripturally. D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. No celestial glory, no eternal increase (posterity) D&C 132:15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. 17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. 18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. No temple sealing, no eternal marriage. No spouse and no children outside of the Celestial Kingdom. Seems pretty clear cut. Because those in those kingdoms did not abide a law sufficient to receive that blessing. ALL blessings are connected to a corresponding law. Now personally, I don't think that this prevents some time in the unending eternities to follow Terrestrial people becoming prepared to receive a Celestial law and gain back this blessing. But as long as they remain Terrestrial in nature some blessings will be unavoidably denied to them. I kind of agree, but the hang up is that we are resurrected supposedly with different body types according to what kingdom we deserve. So something has to give here- I think these two quite Mormon views are a bit in conflict or at least I do not see a way to resolve them. But that is the problem with putting God's truth into words.
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 11 hours ago, cdowis said: And you are saying that they will then die and then be re-resurrected with a celestial body. Or that they will thow off the terrestrial body and receive an upgrade? 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I kind of agree, but the hang up is that we are resurrected supposedly with different body types according to what kingdom we deserve. Were not Adam and Eve in physical immortal bodies prior to the fall? Then they had mortal bodies. Then they had immortal bodies again. According to the Adam-God teachings God has an immortal physical body which he then laid aside to become mortal again. Christ said he did exactly what he saw the Father do - laid down his body and took it up again. The "bodies Celestial", "bodies Terrestrial", and "bodies Telestial" may literally refer to the glory (intelligence) they possess. And intelligence can be increased and decreased. 1
CV75 Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Were not Adam and Eve in physical immortal bodies prior to the fall? Then they had mortal bodies. Then they had immortal bodies again. According to the Adam-God teachings God has an immortal physical body which he then laid aside to become mortal again. Christ said he did exactly what he saw the Father do - laid down his body and took it up again. The "bodies Celestial", "bodies Terrestrial", and "bodies Telestial" may literally refer to the glory (intelligence) they possess. And intelligence can be increased and decreased. Like in "Flowers for Algernon"? My understanding is that intelligence is increased through righteousness, and is lost through disobedience (at least in mortality -- D&C 20:32). I'm not sure how or why an exalted spirit would lay aside an exalted body into something lesser; the only way to accomplish that is for the spirit to degrade so as to assume a lesser quickening, or in the case of retrograding into mortality, no quickening at all since life in mortality is, in the net, a process of physical death (D&C 88:28).
Mark Beesley Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 Some of the comments opposing my original thesis are, well, interesting in their application. God is going to make us forget stuff? God is going to prevent intimacy in lesser kingdoms? Is love forbidden in the lesser Kingdoms? Does God take over all of Lucifer's duties while He is in the process of destroying our agency? I will be the first to admit that there is no written scriptural support for my original thesis. But, if every truth that we might ponder upon must find express scriptural support in the written word, we may be expanding the time needed for our own personal enlightenment. Have a nice day folks. 😊
Mark Beesley Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 On 1/21/2017 at 8:40 PM, cdowis said: 1 Cor 15, starting with verse 35. Just one of those pearls being trampled by swine sort of thing that we don't talk about. Are you suggesting parts might be missing? Yikes!
bluebell Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said: Does God take over all of Lucifer's duties while He is in the process of destroying our agency? Being subject to the known consequences of our choices doesn't destroy agency. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said: Does God take over all of Lucifer's duties while He is in the process of destroying our agency? Agency is directly proportional to obedience. Always has been.
thesometimesaint Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 22 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Are we not all prophets entitled to our own understanding of the gospel? It's funny that you believe people who drink Red Bull and Mountain Dew are entitled to the highest level of heaven but tea is so taboo because it's what God wants. I view drinking tea as a superstition, so I'm not that worried about it...come what may! Only God can judge. 😇 No. God wants us all to have a testimony of Christ, the spirit of prophecy. Not that all of us are to be Prophets, as leaders of his church. I don't believe that drinking Red Bull and/or Mountain Dew prohibits you or anyone else from the highest level of heaven. The LDS have no such teachings. That is where your rebellion becomes self evident. It isn't about what God wants, but what you want. That is all you care about. I'm fine with you viewing it as a superstition. However the LDS believe otherwise. Funny how God gave others the right to judge righteously.
Mark Beesley Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Being subject to the known consequences of our choices doesn't destroy agency. Do you know what life is like are in the hereafter? Me neither. So, our "knowledge" of consequences is pretty sparse.
Mark Beesley Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Agency is directly proportional to obedience. Always has been. I don't think so. 🤔 And even if it were, at what point in time is obedience measured? Edited January 23, 2017 by Mark Beesley
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said: I don't think so. 🤔 And even if it were, at what point in time is obedience measured? The pattern is easily observed. The 1/3 part of the hosts disobeyed God when the plan was decided. As a result they lost the agency to come to earth and progress. Sons of perdition come to earth. By virtue of committing certain serious sins they lose the ability to progress in the next world. D&C 132 and the Savior both tell us that those who choose (reject) marriage in this life loose the ability to choose to have a family in the resurrection. You choose to be a lifelong smoker you may well lose the ability to choose a longer life. Ananias and Saphira chose to lie to God and his representatives. They lost the agency to make any more decisions in mortality. Every time we make a bad choice to disobey God we lose some of our ability to make future choices. Sometimes repentance is possible, sometimes the choice is too permanent. 2
CV75 Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: Some of the comments opposing my original thesis are, well, interesting in their application. God is going to make us forget stuff? God is going to prevent intimacy in lesser kingdoms? Is love forbidden in the lesser Kingdoms? Does God take over all of Lucifer's duties while He is in the process of destroying our agency? I will be the first to admit that there is no written scriptural support for my original thesis. But, if every truth that we might ponder upon must find express scriptural support in the written word, we may be expanding the time needed for our own personal enlightenment. Have a nice day folks. 😊 God is going to make us forget stuff? No. But I suppose we can get busy with the things we can do, which can cause us to forget, and we may well choose to forget rather than suffer. God is going to prevent intimacy in lesser kingdoms? We can only do what we are capable of, but where there is no progress, physical relationships will become neutralized. Just as in the sociality that exists in this world. Is love forbidden in the lesser Kingdoms? No, but where there is no progress, emotional relationships will become neutralized. Just as in the sociality that exists in this world. Does God take over all of Lucifer's duties while He is in the process of destroying our agency? He isn't in the process of destroying our agency, but that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. Edited January 23, 2017 by CV75
bluebell Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: Do you know what life is like are in the hereafter? Me neither. So, our "knowledge" of consequences is pretty sparse. But what I do know is that suffering the consequences of our choices does not negate our agency.
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Were not Adam and Eve in physical immortal bodies prior to the fall? Then they had mortal bodies. Then they had immortal bodies again. According to the Adam-God teachings God has an immortal physical body which he then laid aside to become mortal again. Christ said he did exactly what he saw the Father do - laid down his body and took it up again. The "bodies Celestial", "bodies Terrestrial", and "bodies Telestial" may literally refer to the glory (intelligence) they possess. And intelligence can be increased and decreased. Sounds do-able to me! One of my favoritie pieces of Gnostic Christian literature is the Hymn of the Pearl, aka the Hymn of the Robe of Glory aka the Hymn of the Soul Allegorically it speaks of coming from the Palace of royal parents, taking up a "garment" (a body), coming to earth with a mission, then taking up another garment and returning to the parental mansion and receiving a robe of glory. If I had my way, this would be scripture- I take it as such. It is actually one of the strongest cases I know of for an ancient rendering of the plan of salvation as taught by the LDS church allegorically. As in Egyptian symbolism, note that the East is toward the sunrise and the home of God and the west is toward the Nile, beyond which is the land of the dead. http://gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm 1
rodheadlee Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) On 1/22/2017 at 11:30 AM, Ouagadougou said: Drinking tea is open rebellion against God? 😀 My point is that the church has a checklist to gain salvation. No. You are correct. 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their amouth, and bhonoureth me with their lips; but their cheart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do aworship me, teaching for bdoctrines the ccommandments of men. 10 ¶ And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth adefileth a man; but that which cometh out of the bmouth, this defileth a man. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the amouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the aheart proceed evil thoughts, bmurders, cadulteries, dfornications, thefts, efalse witness, fblasphemies: 20 These are the things which adefile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Edited January 24, 2017 by rodheadlee
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